IAM instruction - advice please
Discussion
Help me out here guys. I've now had 4 sessions with my IAM instructor. It's all good, apart from 1 aspect that I really dont like. Use of the clutch.
Scenario: 50 mph in 5th, approaching a red light.
How I was originally taught, and how I currently drive is lift off power to reduce speed, light braking, drop a gear or two at say 20 mph, dip clutch as car comes to a halt & finally into neutral when stationary.
The IAM way:
Off the power as above, light braking, but stay in 5th until halted. Use the clutch to stop the car grumbling.
He maintains clutch only needs to be held for a moment. I maintain it's more like 30 yards, nearer 10 seconds. As I've just spent near £500 pound on a replacement pedal box after the clutch pedal failed (a VW weak point) this adds to my dislike of this method. He doesnt credit this as relevant.. "brakes are cheaper than gearboxes". True of course. I feel 1 gear change to aid speed reduction no crime all the same.
To me, rolling along with the clutch down is no better than cruising along in neutral, which I think is illegal.
Comments very welcome
Ed
Scenario: 50 mph in 5th, approaching a red light.
How I was originally taught, and how I currently drive is lift off power to reduce speed, light braking, drop a gear or two at say 20 mph, dip clutch as car comes to a halt & finally into neutral when stationary.
The IAM way:
Off the power as above, light braking, but stay in 5th until halted. Use the clutch to stop the car grumbling.
He maintains clutch only needs to be held for a moment. I maintain it's more like 30 yards, nearer 10 seconds. As I've just spent near £500 pound on a replacement pedal box after the clutch pedal failed (a VW weak point) this adds to my dislike of this method. He doesnt credit this as relevant.. "brakes are cheaper than gearboxes". True of course. I feel 1 gear change to aid speed reduction no crime all the same.
To me, rolling along with the clutch down is no better than cruising along in neutral, which I think is illegal.
Comments very welcome
Ed
Can a mod move this to the Advanced section.
The difficulty with going down through the gears when braking is that you cant match the engine revs to the lower gears with your right foot on the brake.
You can heel-toe to match the revs but my foot would ache driving like that all day. (plus Im not much good at heel-toe)
Seperating brakes and gearchanges is to make things smoother, and it does work for me (most of the time) and where its not appropriate you can heel-toe to match revs. Saves wear on your clutch as well.
I dont think there is anything wrong with coasting on the clutch as long as its intentional.
The difficulty with going down through the gears when braking is that you cant match the engine revs to the lower gears with your right foot on the brake.
You can heel-toe to match the revs but my foot would ache driving like that all day. (plus Im not much good at heel-toe)
Seperating brakes and gearchanges is to make things smoother, and it does work for me (most of the time) and where its not appropriate you can heel-toe to match revs. Saves wear on your clutch as well.
I dont think there is anything wrong with coasting on the clutch as long as its intentional.
Edited by Holst on Tuesday 16th September 19:52
You'll get used to this.
Basically the System of Car Control calls for no wasted gear changes - the ideal for every hazard being one smooth brake and one smooth gearchange. That change could be to neutral because you are stopping, or "first on the roll" because you are stopping momentarily.
If you are coming to a halt you will need to dip the clutch to prevent the engine from labouring. The thing to practice is braking and seeing when it is that engine start not to like things. Dip the clutch just prior to that moment. Once you are used to that you will probably find that the 30 yards you think it is now is actually 10 yards or less.
Another tip to making this work is to judge the rate at which you are losing speed such that you are not too slow just prior to the hazard. You WILL get this wrong at first because since you are planning on completing braking and then making a gearchange you will leave loads of room for doing so on the road. As you get confident with planning when your gearchange will happen you will find yourself slowing a little later and more quickly (NOT standing on the brakes!) and the time spent with a dipped clutch will narrow to almost nothing.
Another aspect of getting this right is looking ahead at the hazard and deciding at what position on the road you will be able to decide if you can GO or need to STOP. That is the point of the GO / NO GO decision. You will be planning on braking to a speed where at the point of making the the GO / NO GO decision you can STOP (NO GO) if required OR dip the clutch and grab the gear you need.
At first everyone struggles with this because they are a reactive driver. Simply changing down as the sound of the engine falls. The System requires you to be a proactive driver - planning ahead of time what speed will be required and knowing, therefore, in advance what gear will be required. Clearly one may need to stop - hence the GO/NOGO decision point as part of the driving plan.
In short - practice makes perfect and this does get easier. Eventually it feels natural.
Once you are planning what to do properly the gearchange will happen all by itself and you won't need to cruise hundreds of yards in neutral. I promise. Scouts honour!
Basically the System of Car Control calls for no wasted gear changes - the ideal for every hazard being one smooth brake and one smooth gearchange. That change could be to neutral because you are stopping, or "first on the roll" because you are stopping momentarily.
If you are coming to a halt you will need to dip the clutch to prevent the engine from labouring. The thing to practice is braking and seeing when it is that engine start not to like things. Dip the clutch just prior to that moment. Once you are used to that you will probably find that the 30 yards you think it is now is actually 10 yards or less.
Another tip to making this work is to judge the rate at which you are losing speed such that you are not too slow just prior to the hazard. You WILL get this wrong at first because since you are planning on completing braking and then making a gearchange you will leave loads of room for doing so on the road. As you get confident with planning when your gearchange will happen you will find yourself slowing a little later and more quickly (NOT standing on the brakes!) and the time spent with a dipped clutch will narrow to almost nothing.
Another aspect of getting this right is looking ahead at the hazard and deciding at what position on the road you will be able to decide if you can GO or need to STOP. That is the point of the GO / NO GO decision. You will be planning on braking to a speed where at the point of making the the GO / NO GO decision you can STOP (NO GO) if required OR dip the clutch and grab the gear you need.
At first everyone struggles with this because they are a reactive driver. Simply changing down as the sound of the engine falls. The System requires you to be a proactive driver - planning ahead of time what speed will be required and knowing, therefore, in advance what gear will be required. Clearly one may need to stop - hence the GO/NOGO decision point as part of the driving plan.
In short - practice makes perfect and this does get easier. Eventually it feels natural.
Once you are planning what to do properly the gearchange will happen all by itself and you won't need to cruise hundreds of yards in neutral. I promise. Scouts honour!
Holst said:
Seperating brakes and gearchanges is to make things smoother, and it does work for me (most of the time) and where its not appropriate you can heel-toe to match revs. Saves wear on your clutch as well.
Agree with all that. So, I did also try changing down a gear after lifting from the accelerator peddle, before any braking (using 'accelerator sense' as he calls it) to help keep the rpm more manageable without needing the clutch.Nope.
Edited by EdT on Tuesday 16th September 19:59
Don said:
I see you are in Berks, Ed. I'm in North Hampshire so not far away. If you ever want a demo drive to show you how I put the System into practice and don't need to coast I'd be happy to do you one.
Nice Griff, BTW!
Sadly, it's no longer mine Nice Griff, BTW!
At the moment I have 1.7 litres of unbridled diesel po.wer to keep under control
Don said:
The thing to practice is braking and seeing when it is that engine start not to like things. Dip the clutch just prior to that moment. Once you are used to that you will probably find that the 30 yards you think it is now is actually 10 yards or less.
In 5th, I give you my word the little Lupo engine really doesnt like less than 15mph. I think the 500 may have been more tolerant but didnt start IAM before it sold. As I'm being taught to be gently with the brakes, this makes it a considerable distance travelled with the clutch applied whilst slowing to a halt.
Athlon said:
In day to day driving why would you need to match the revs? that is what syncro's are for, last time I had to match revs was in a series one Landy!
Your much less likely to lock your rear wheels in the rain if you match revs on downshifts. Not as usefull in my FWD car, but I would expect this to be pretty handy in a TVR.Edited by Holst on Tuesday 16th September 20:09
SamHH said:
Athlon said:
In day to day driving why would you need to match the revs? that is what syncro's are for, last time I had to match revs was in a series one Landy!
To reduce wear to the clutch and to make gearchanges smoother.EdT said:
Don said:
I see you are in Berks, Ed. I'm in North Hampshire so not far away. If you ever want a demo drive to show you how I put the System into practice and don't need to coast I'd be happy to do you one.
Nice Griff, BTW!
Sadly, it's no longer mine Nice Griff, BTW!
At the moment I have 1.7 litres of unbridled diesel po.wer to keep under control
Hmmm. I'll be honest with you - the short rev range/torque of some diesels means to avoid the engine from labouring you need to dip the clutch earlier than in a petrol engine. At least two I have driven were like this.
Yes you can drive them systematically. But, I will admit, in the Fiat Bravo diesel I drove around Spain I was H&T'ing to keep the car in drive when slowing. Not totally chucking the System away I might add - just keeping the engine in a rev range it was happy with. I'd still be block-changing down to the gear necessary - just I might do it a bit earlier and H&T.
This was probably because I didn't spend long enough learning about when the car was going to labour/or not. It was a rental!
So - I understand your issue! I'd need to sit in with you when you were driving your car to help you adopt the System best. But your Observer should be doing that with you already.
Don't give up hope - I'm certain a balance exists so that you can drive your car Systematically.
Holst said:
Athlon said:
In day to day driving why would you need to match the revs? that is what syncro's are for, last time I had to match revs was in a series one Landy!
Your much less likely to lock your rear wheels in the rain if you match revs on downshifts. Not very usefull in my FWD car, but I would expect this to be pretty handy in a TVR.EdT said:
Comments very welcome
Have exactly the same problem right now with IAM. I too was taught to come back through the gears and not to stop in top gear like you mention, but IAM want you to roll to a stop in 5th, which in my eyes is a bit daft and alien. My instinct (for some reason) is to change to 3rd on the way down, and to stop in 3rd rather than 5th.tinman0 said:
EdT said:
Comments very welcome
Have exactly the same problem right now with IAM. I too was taught to come back through the gears and not to stop in top gear like you mention, but IAM want you to roll to a stop in 5th, which in my eyes is a bit daft and alien. My instinct (for some reason) is to change to 3rd on the way down, and to stop in 3rd rather than 5th.SamHH said:
EdT said:
Instructor all in favour of power changes whilst driving & dropping gears, promotes this in fact.
I'm not quite sure what the meaning of 'power change' is. Is it analogous to rev matching?Don said:
Ahhh. Auto or manual? Manual I take it?
manual yes.Don said:
Yes you can drive them systematically. But, I will admit, in the Fiat Bravo diesel I drove around Spain I was H&T'ing to keep the car in drive when slowing. Not totally chucking the System away I might add - just keeping the engine in a rev range it was happy with. I'd still be block-changing down to the gear necessary - just I might do it a bit earlier and H&T.
That's pretty much spot on how I've been driving the Lupo til starting IAM. One thing I havent tried yet is getting him to drive it, might help clarify my predicament & show the different characteristics between my 1.7sdi & his 2.2 (I think) injection SAABthehappyotter said:
It does feel odd at first, when I was first taught to trive to the system I hated it with a passion. I just couldn't get the hang of it.
One day it clicked, it all made sense and became totally natural. I don't have to think about it now.
Just give it time.
Am trying to. My fear is that it will be the pedal box that clicks first.One day it clicked, it all made sense and became totally natural. I don't have to think about it now.
Just give it time.
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