Thoughts on a Sociable/Sensible “Target” Gap When Overtaking
Discussion
Introduction
Recently I put some thought into how wide the “target gap” should be before I consider an overtake safe and comfortable for all parties. By target gap I mean the space between the car you wish to overtake and the car in front of the one you want to overtake.
I thought I’d jot my thoughts down in case it helps someone and to find out what I missed from the PH cooperative.
Special thanks go to the BIB, notably Reg, Madcop, and Von who imparted excellent advice and enhanced my interest.
Summary
Target gaps need to be substantial, at least 8 seconds, due to the need to accommodate the potential behaviour of other vehicles.
Example 1 (2 second target gap)
NSL A road
4 cars, all at 40 mph due to Car 1 in the lead at 40 mph
Car 1 at the front
Car 2 (the car you wish to overtake) 2 seconds behind Car 1
Car 3 (you), obviously you are at least 2 seconds behind C2
Car 4 (a vehicle 2 seconds behind you)
Is it safe to go?
I say no. A 2 second gap can look reasonable in comparison to the “nose to tail” queues that often build in such situations. However if you time things perfectly and land in the middle of the target gap (a contact position for you at best), you leave a 1 second gap between Car 2 and you. A 1 second gap has the potential to cause the driver of Car 2 discomfort and therefore I feel the overtake is not on.
It may be worth moving to the contact position if the view/circumstances warrant it, but nothing more in my opinion. I suspect most people are with me on this one.
Example 2 (4 second target gap)
NSL A road
4 cars, all at 40 mph due to Car 1 in the lead at 40 mph
Car 1 at the front
Car 2 (the car you wish to overtake) 4 seconds behind Car 1
Car 3 (you), obviously you are at least 2 seconds behind C2
Car 4 (a vehicle 2 seconds behind you)
Is it safe to go? Surely 4 seconds is a sociable/sensible target gap? That allows me a nice 2 second buffer between two vehicles……I must be safe!
Again, I think not.
If you judge it well, you land in the middle of the target gap. If you push it a bit you arrive in the contact position (1 second from C1, 3 seconds in front of C2). This is OK in most circumstances but there are potential problems in my view.
Let’s say I accelerate to 60mph and I have +20mph on C2. I pull alongside C2 and start to ease off the throttle with a view to “slotting in” as per text book advice. At this point I also have +20mph on C1.
What if C1 brakes hard and stops? The braking could be for any reason.
Options in Example 2 (now that C1 is braking)?
1) Abort
One problem could be that the Car 4 to (now) Car 2 gap is closed or reduced. This is where I came from.
Dropping back to my previous position behind C2 is potentially difficult since any braking from C2 will reduce the distance between C2 and C4. C4 is unlikely to react swiftly since their view of the reason for C2’s braking is restricted. Further, C4 might attempt to follow me through the overtake, C4 might move up to the contact position on C2, or C4 might be closer still to C2. I don’t know what C4 and C2 will do.
The abort might mean stopping on the wrong side of the road. Even this may have its problems if C4 is closing rapidly, following me through the overtake without realising the new circumstances. If I brake hard, C4 might not react in time or their vehicle may have significantly less stopping power than me.
Stopping on the wrong side of the road is far better than hitting something. However it’s inelegant, I still need luck with C4, and my work will prompt negative reactions from other drivers.
2) Continue the overtake and slot into the diminishing target gap
Even assuming no antics from C2 (speeding up as I overtake), I am likely to cause discomfort to others.
How will C2 react to the C1 braking? It is hard to predict the actions of other drivers, and certainly I cannot count on any one action from C2.
C2 might brake hard to a stop. C2 might brake partially. C2 might not react to C1 braking because C2 could be looking at me. I just don’t know, and the correct course of action must be determined on the fly as the scenario unfolds.
Added to the equation is the attitude of C4. As per Option 1 (abort), C4 might be overtaking too, attempting to follow me through.
To successfully execute Option 2 (continue and slot in) I need to assess the attitude and position of the other three cars, almost simultaneously. Further, assuming I correctly assess what the others do, I must calculate the correct attitude and position of my own vehicle then successfully perform the required manoeuvres. The correct course of action depends on the timing of the C1 braking and where I am at that moment. Whatever the timing, even if I succeed, in this case success will be avoiding a collision, and that is a far lower standard than most PHers aspire to. Discomfort to others and inelegance are likely.
Some calculations to go with Option 2
C1 brakes and stops within 24m from when you observe their brake lights (24m = their actual stopping distance after their thinking time)
N.B. I know the Highway Code stopping distances are conservative, but C1 might also have a modern vehicle that stops more quickly than the Highway Code says it can.
4 seconds gap at 40mph (18 metres per second) is approximately 72 metres
Available stopping distance for you to slot in and stop if required = 72 + 24 = 96m
Stopping distance from 60mph (now that you are overtaking) = 73m
Two second gap for comfort between you and C2 (at his 40 mph) = 36m
Actual stopping distance (from 60 mph) plus comfort for C2 = 109 metres required for safe and comfortable overtake
109 metres at 40 mph = just over 6 seconds of target gap required
Therefore 6 seconds is the minimum required target gap at 40 mph in dry and clear conditions. If I want to allow a bit extra as a safety margin (and I surely do), then 8 seconds of target gap is what I need in order to consider an overtake “on”. If conditions are poor then larger gaps will be required.
In short the 8 second gap is good because…
My 8 second gap and positive observation that there are no other hazards allows for the behaviour of C1 because I leave sufficient space to stop.
The 8 second gap allows for reasonable behaviour of C2 and C4. I am sure I have a large enough target gap to complete the overtake without discomfort for others.
The actions of C2 are not covered 100%, but I remove their discomfort (personal space problem) by allowing the 8 second gap and I reduce the risk of negative reactions by planning and executing a good overtake. A sociable gap and a well executed overtake mean that any negative reactions from C2 (speeding up, swerving, gesticulating, etc) are a result of their own behaviour and would (I believe) be viewed harshly by BIB.
The actions of C4 are not 100% covered. C4 may “push” me through the overtake and execute their own poor overtake. However, again that is their choice, not mine and should draw the ire of Von et al.
When assessing overtakes and overtaking I should (amongst all the other good advice on technique)....
Overtake into 8 second or greater target gaps
Overtake multiple vehicles as one group (subject to correct technique when doing so) into an 8 second or greater target gap in front of the first car in the group
N.B. this precludes me “leap frogging” into small (less than 8 second gaps) down a line of traffic
Increase the required target gap to more than 8 seconds if conditions are less than perfect and/or my overtaking speed is greater than 60mph
Remember to observe and assess the ground in front of C1 in addition to the ground in front of C2 before the overtake (C1 could be obscuring hazards at a given moment)
Right then, over to you PH! What am I missing?
Recently I put some thought into how wide the “target gap” should be before I consider an overtake safe and comfortable for all parties. By target gap I mean the space between the car you wish to overtake and the car in front of the one you want to overtake.
I thought I’d jot my thoughts down in case it helps someone and to find out what I missed from the PH cooperative.
Special thanks go to the BIB, notably Reg, Madcop, and Von who imparted excellent advice and enhanced my interest.
Summary
Target gaps need to be substantial, at least 8 seconds, due to the need to accommodate the potential behaviour of other vehicles.
Example 1 (2 second target gap)
NSL A road
4 cars, all at 40 mph due to Car 1 in the lead at 40 mph
Car 1 at the front
Car 2 (the car you wish to overtake) 2 seconds behind Car 1
Car 3 (you), obviously you are at least 2 seconds behind C2
Car 4 (a vehicle 2 seconds behind you)
Is it safe to go?
I say no. A 2 second gap can look reasonable in comparison to the “nose to tail” queues that often build in such situations. However if you time things perfectly and land in the middle of the target gap (a contact position for you at best), you leave a 1 second gap between Car 2 and you. A 1 second gap has the potential to cause the driver of Car 2 discomfort and therefore I feel the overtake is not on.
It may be worth moving to the contact position if the view/circumstances warrant it, but nothing more in my opinion. I suspect most people are with me on this one.
Example 2 (4 second target gap)
NSL A road
4 cars, all at 40 mph due to Car 1 in the lead at 40 mph
Car 1 at the front
Car 2 (the car you wish to overtake) 4 seconds behind Car 1
Car 3 (you), obviously you are at least 2 seconds behind C2
Car 4 (a vehicle 2 seconds behind you)
Is it safe to go? Surely 4 seconds is a sociable/sensible target gap? That allows me a nice 2 second buffer between two vehicles……I must be safe!
Again, I think not.
If you judge it well, you land in the middle of the target gap. If you push it a bit you arrive in the contact position (1 second from C1, 3 seconds in front of C2). This is OK in most circumstances but there are potential problems in my view.
Let’s say I accelerate to 60mph and I have +20mph on C2. I pull alongside C2 and start to ease off the throttle with a view to “slotting in” as per text book advice. At this point I also have +20mph on C1.
What if C1 brakes hard and stops? The braking could be for any reason.
Options in Example 2 (now that C1 is braking)?
1) Abort
One problem could be that the Car 4 to (now) Car 2 gap is closed or reduced. This is where I came from.
Dropping back to my previous position behind C2 is potentially difficult since any braking from C2 will reduce the distance between C2 and C4. C4 is unlikely to react swiftly since their view of the reason for C2’s braking is restricted. Further, C4 might attempt to follow me through the overtake, C4 might move up to the contact position on C2, or C4 might be closer still to C2. I don’t know what C4 and C2 will do.
The abort might mean stopping on the wrong side of the road. Even this may have its problems if C4 is closing rapidly, following me through the overtake without realising the new circumstances. If I brake hard, C4 might not react in time or their vehicle may have significantly less stopping power than me.
Stopping on the wrong side of the road is far better than hitting something. However it’s inelegant, I still need luck with C4, and my work will prompt negative reactions from other drivers.
2) Continue the overtake and slot into the diminishing target gap
Even assuming no antics from C2 (speeding up as I overtake), I am likely to cause discomfort to others.
How will C2 react to the C1 braking? It is hard to predict the actions of other drivers, and certainly I cannot count on any one action from C2.
C2 might brake hard to a stop. C2 might brake partially. C2 might not react to C1 braking because C2 could be looking at me. I just don’t know, and the correct course of action must be determined on the fly as the scenario unfolds.
Added to the equation is the attitude of C4. As per Option 1 (abort), C4 might be overtaking too, attempting to follow me through.
To successfully execute Option 2 (continue and slot in) I need to assess the attitude and position of the other three cars, almost simultaneously. Further, assuming I correctly assess what the others do, I must calculate the correct attitude and position of my own vehicle then successfully perform the required manoeuvres. The correct course of action depends on the timing of the C1 braking and where I am at that moment. Whatever the timing, even if I succeed, in this case success will be avoiding a collision, and that is a far lower standard than most PHers aspire to. Discomfort to others and inelegance are likely.
Some calculations to go with Option 2
C1 brakes and stops within 24m from when you observe their brake lights (24m = their actual stopping distance after their thinking time)
N.B. I know the Highway Code stopping distances are conservative, but C1 might also have a modern vehicle that stops more quickly than the Highway Code says it can.
4 seconds gap at 40mph (18 metres per second) is approximately 72 metres
Available stopping distance for you to slot in and stop if required = 72 + 24 = 96m
Stopping distance from 60mph (now that you are overtaking) = 73m
Two second gap for comfort between you and C2 (at his 40 mph) = 36m
Actual stopping distance (from 60 mph) plus comfort for C2 = 109 metres required for safe and comfortable overtake
109 metres at 40 mph = just over 6 seconds of target gap required
Therefore 6 seconds is the minimum required target gap at 40 mph in dry and clear conditions. If I want to allow a bit extra as a safety margin (and I surely do), then 8 seconds of target gap is what I need in order to consider an overtake “on”. If conditions are poor then larger gaps will be required.
In short the 8 second gap is good because…
My 8 second gap and positive observation that there are no other hazards allows for the behaviour of C1 because I leave sufficient space to stop.
The 8 second gap allows for reasonable behaviour of C2 and C4. I am sure I have a large enough target gap to complete the overtake without discomfort for others.
The actions of C2 are not covered 100%, but I remove their discomfort (personal space problem) by allowing the 8 second gap and I reduce the risk of negative reactions by planning and executing a good overtake. A sociable gap and a well executed overtake mean that any negative reactions from C2 (speeding up, swerving, gesticulating, etc) are a result of their own behaviour and would (I believe) be viewed harshly by BIB.
The actions of C4 are not 100% covered. C4 may “push” me through the overtake and execute their own poor overtake. However, again that is their choice, not mine and should draw the ire of Von et al.
When assessing overtakes and overtaking I should (amongst all the other good advice on technique)....
Overtake into 8 second or greater target gaps
Overtake multiple vehicles as one group (subject to correct technique when doing so) into an 8 second or greater target gap in front of the first car in the group
N.B. this precludes me “leap frogging” into small (less than 8 second gaps) down a line of traffic
Increase the required target gap to more than 8 seconds if conditions are less than perfect and/or my overtaking speed is greater than 60mph
Remember to observe and assess the ground in front of C1 in addition to the ground in front of C2 before the overtake (C1 could be obscuring hazards at a given moment)
Right then, over to you PH! What am I missing?
This is purely my opinion.
But I think you're over analysing the act of overtaking far too much. There are some aspects of driving that can't simply be broken down into letters, numbers and formulae. You will never find a solution that is 100% safe for every situation, as every situation is different and will require your individual judgement. If you've been driving for any length of time you will instinctively be able to read a situation, hopefully take into account all the possible risks and outcomes and then proceed based on that information. You can't write a formula to do this for you, it will only come with experience.
But I think you're over analysing the act of overtaking far too much. There are some aspects of driving that can't simply be broken down into letters, numbers and formulae. You will never find a solution that is 100% safe for every situation, as every situation is different and will require your individual judgement. If you've been driving for any length of time you will instinctively be able to read a situation, hopefully take into account all the possible risks and outcomes and then proceed based on that information. You can't write a formula to do this for you, it will only come with experience.
I disagree and think that the numbers are there whether you bother doing the maths or not. Obviously you can't run the numbers on every overtake but it *is* enlightening to run the numbers.
However overtakes are rarely as simple as the scenarios modelled in the OP. And more useful is the guidance that you only abandon one position of safety when you are guaranteed another one. The burden of guarantee in this (as with all AD) is reasonable certainty.
Most overtakes that I take on SC roads are singles with good gaps ahead.
With queues to do a safe and sociable overtake, I need to be pretty sure that:-
- I am going to make overtakes that the cars in front aren't going to take.
- That I am going to get the lot within a reasonable space of time -- ie I'm not going to just hop up a place in queue but am going to take the lot or do two or three hops to get the lot before -- say -- the next town.
- That on any hop noone can (reasonably) do anything - either malicious or accidental that can hurt my safety.
This means that with many queues I'll look for a while to see if its on and then abandon to a long follow and let the next chap hop if he wants to. On some roads multiple overtakes do open up, but they require fantastic views and stable targets -- long straight flat roads aren't that good as everybody goes for the overtake, but good river valley roads can sometimes give enough cross view to take six or seven through the twisties where they stay put. Any obstacles which slow traffic can also provide queue overtaking opportunities worth retiring the long follow for another look.
I did once hedge hop up about 20 cars in Suffolk with a phalanx of bikers - I can't say it was that comfy, however, as whilst the cars usually make a bit of space for a hedge-hopping bike, they were slightly less accommodating for the interloper, although the bikers were fine with it... I'm ont sure I'd do that often.
However overtakes are rarely as simple as the scenarios modelled in the OP. And more useful is the guidance that you only abandon one position of safety when you are guaranteed another one. The burden of guarantee in this (as with all AD) is reasonable certainty.
Most overtakes that I take on SC roads are singles with good gaps ahead.
With queues to do a safe and sociable overtake, I need to be pretty sure that:-
- I am going to make overtakes that the cars in front aren't going to take.
- That I am going to get the lot within a reasonable space of time -- ie I'm not going to just hop up a place in queue but am going to take the lot or do two or three hops to get the lot before -- say -- the next town.
- That on any hop noone can (reasonably) do anything - either malicious or accidental that can hurt my safety.
This means that with many queues I'll look for a while to see if its on and then abandon to a long follow and let the next chap hop if he wants to. On some roads multiple overtakes do open up, but they require fantastic views and stable targets -- long straight flat roads aren't that good as everybody goes for the overtake, but good river valley roads can sometimes give enough cross view to take six or seven through the twisties where they stay put. Any obstacles which slow traffic can also provide queue overtaking opportunities worth retiring the long follow for another look.
I did once hedge hop up about 20 cars in Suffolk with a phalanx of bikers - I can't say it was that comfy, however, as whilst the cars usually make a bit of space for a hedge-hopping bike, they were slightly less accommodating for the interloper, although the bikers were fine with it... I'm ont sure I'd do that often.
Overtaking a vehicle which is close behind another raises various red flags in my mind. Having a big enough gap to land in is important but not the biggest worry. I'm far more concerned that [one of] the car[s] in front might pull out to start an overtake of their own, or the car behind will overtake as I pull out, or while I'm keeping track of all that lot I'll miss spotting a side entrance with somebody waiting to pull out and take up the 'empty' lane. It can be done safely but it needs a great deal of attention.
Edited by GreenV8S on Sunday 31st August 13:44
chris_w666 said:
TPAC said:
I like Von's take on it. Nice and simple. He said, something like: The time to overtake is when, having observed everything, the question is: Why not?
That makes a lot of sense and doesn't hurt my brain to read. With overtaking, I either do it or I don't; and if I'm in doubt, I don't. It's a question of does it look right, and will it feel right when it's done. I'm happy to say that in almost 51 years, it has very seldom felt seriously wrong.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
chris_w666 said:
TPAC said:
I like Von's take on it. Nice and simple. He said, something like: The time to overtake is when, having observed everything, the question is: Why not?
That makes a lot of sense and doesn't hurt my brain to read. Overtaking into an 8 second gap would be nice, but how often do you see such a thing? Not very, when there's a line of traffic. Whilst the calculations about braking distances etc may well be right, I don't think that they take into account visibility.
For example, if you can see clear road in front of car 1 when you're offside, you will be able to see anything likely to make them brake, and I'd be more comfortable ending up with a smaller gap. If you can't see ahead of them, a larger gap would certainly be better, but then I'm not sure I'd overtake anyway in that situation...
This is close to my heart.
I drive a 90hp Polo(atm) and drive twice a day(sometimes 4 times) on one of Yorkshires mini Cadwell park roads, to and from work. The road is now a 50mph limit reduced from National speed limit and is very quick in certain areas. Unfortunately, there are walkers, bikers, golfers and horses all over the place so it pays to look ahead. It does not however pay to drive at 25/30mph(as some people deem 'safe' for the road) and lines of 2 or 3 cars often build up. There is never any merit in annoying people just for the sake of it but the amount of flashed headlights from carefully overtaken drivers is beginning to mash my swede!
Ok, so some would say that the road is only 2 miles long and why not just sit it out at 25 mph and arrive 2 mins later than I would have done if I had not overtaken....Why? Why sit at someone else's 'enforced' shortsighted speed limit? I love driving, I love planing ahead so why not pass the 'sheep' of the roads that can not see further than the car in front's rear window full of dogs?-If it is safe to do so?
If it is not safe, I will not pass-BUT if 5 cars are sitting in front of me(maybe on a different stretch of road to the above) and are just nose to tailing until the end of time, then I will find a suitable place ease past a couple and then blend in to a gap that may need some cajoling!-Ok I am not talking Dangerous cajoling, but careful deceleration that opens up a gap, in a set of stupid, one line of thought, moronic, previously were sheep, I am not going to allow anyone else in the world to pass, cretins and allows me to move on with my life and my 90bhp--god I miss BHP!!!!!
I drive a 90hp Polo(atm) and drive twice a day(sometimes 4 times) on one of Yorkshires mini Cadwell park roads, to and from work. The road is now a 50mph limit reduced from National speed limit and is very quick in certain areas. Unfortunately, there are walkers, bikers, golfers and horses all over the place so it pays to look ahead. It does not however pay to drive at 25/30mph(as some people deem 'safe' for the road) and lines of 2 or 3 cars often build up. There is never any merit in annoying people just for the sake of it but the amount of flashed headlights from carefully overtaken drivers is beginning to mash my swede!
Ok, so some would say that the road is only 2 miles long and why not just sit it out at 25 mph and arrive 2 mins later than I would have done if I had not overtaken....Why? Why sit at someone else's 'enforced' shortsighted speed limit? I love driving, I love planing ahead so why not pass the 'sheep' of the roads that can not see further than the car in front's rear window full of dogs?-If it is safe to do so?
If it is not safe, I will not pass-BUT if 5 cars are sitting in front of me(maybe on a different stretch of road to the above) and are just nose to tailing until the end of time, then I will find a suitable place ease past a couple and then blend in to a gap that may need some cajoling!-Ok I am not talking Dangerous cajoling, but careful deceleration that opens up a gap, in a set of stupid, one line of thought, moronic, previously were sheep, I am not going to allow anyone else in the world to pass, cretins and allows me to move on with my life and my 90bhp--god I miss BHP!!!!!
fast_eddie said:
If it is not safe, I will not pass-BUT if 5 cars are sitting in front of me(maybe on a different stretch of road to the above) and are just nose to tailing until the end of time, then I will find a suitable place ease past a couple and then blend in to a gap that may need some cajoling
So how long could it take to cajole? And to cope if the driver you are trying to cajole closes up the gap instead of letting you in? Have you really been able to see far enough ahead to be confident that no traffic will appear towards you in the time it could take you to sort all this out?I am sympathetic, I should not like to follow at 25 mph, but I am very reluctant to overtake unless I am confident of reaching a certain gap before any traffic could arrive towards me. A gap which I have to cajole my way into does not sound like a certain gap to me.
fast_eddie said:
This is close to my heart.
I drive a 90hp Polo(atm) and drive twice a day(sometimes 4 times) on one of Yorkshires mini Cadwell park roads, to and from work. The road is now a 50mph limit reduced from National speed limit and is very quick in certain areas. Unfortunately, there are walkers, bikers, golfers and horses all over the place so it pays to look ahead. It does not however pay to drive at 25/30mph(as some people deem 'safe' for the road) and lines of 2 or 3 cars often build up. There is never any merit in annoying people just for the sake of it but the amount of flashed headlights from carefully overtaken drivers is beginning to mash my swede!
Ok, so some would say that the road is only 2 miles long and why not just sit it out at 25 mph and arrive 2 mins later than I would have done if I had not overtaken....Why? Why sit at someone else's 'enforced' shortsighted speed limit? I love driving, I love planing ahead so why not pass the 'sheep' of the roads that can not see further than the car in front's rear window full of dogs?-If it is safe to do so?
If it is not safe, I will not pass-BUT if 5 cars are sitting in front of me(maybe on a different stretch of road to the above) and are just nose to tailing until the end of time, then I will find a suitable place ease past a couple and then blend in to a gap that may need some cajoling!-Ok I am not talking Dangerous cajoling, but careful deceleration that opens up a gap, in a set of stupid, one line of thought, moronic, previously were sheep, I am not going to allow anyone else in the world to pass, cretins and allows me to move on with my life and my 90bhp--god I miss BHP!!!!!
You sound like an accident waiting to happen TBH.I drive a 90hp Polo(atm) and drive twice a day(sometimes 4 times) on one of Yorkshires mini Cadwell park roads, to and from work. The road is now a 50mph limit reduced from National speed limit and is very quick in certain areas. Unfortunately, there are walkers, bikers, golfers and horses all over the place so it pays to look ahead. It does not however pay to drive at 25/30mph(as some people deem 'safe' for the road) and lines of 2 or 3 cars often build up. There is never any merit in annoying people just for the sake of it but the amount of flashed headlights from carefully overtaken drivers is beginning to mash my swede!
Ok, so some would say that the road is only 2 miles long and why not just sit it out at 25 mph and arrive 2 mins later than I would have done if I had not overtaken....Why? Why sit at someone else's 'enforced' shortsighted speed limit? I love driving, I love planing ahead so why not pass the 'sheep' of the roads that can not see further than the car in front's rear window full of dogs?-If it is safe to do so?
If it is not safe, I will not pass-BUT if 5 cars are sitting in front of me(maybe on a different stretch of road to the above) and are just nose to tailing until the end of time, then I will find a suitable place ease past a couple and then blend in to a gap that may need some cajoling!-Ok I am not talking Dangerous cajoling, but careful deceleration that opens up a gap, in a set of stupid, one line of thought, moronic, previously were sheep, I am not going to allow anyone else in the world to pass, cretins and allows me to move on with my life and my 90bhp--god I miss BHP!!!!!
Contempt for all other road users - check.
Bully boy in a small shopping car - check.
Candidate for a head on, or other fatal accident - check.
The general rule I use is that when pulling back in, you do such without the vehicle you are overtaking having to brake or slow down when you pull in. To do so, you pull in quite close to the rear of the vehicle in front of that one and decelerate (not braking, just on the engine) to the speed of that vehicle, increasing the gap between the vehicles. The rear vehicle you have just overtaken will not need to brake in anyway and at most will just have to take the foot off the throttle for a second or 2 to increase the gap between your vehicle and their's. Obviously, it all depends on what is happening up aheaad of the vehicle you are pulling behind, ie, junctions, other cars, etc.
Thanks for the replies. I realise all of you are already thinking about your driving by virtue of the fact that you read this. Respect to you all.
I gave it some more thought. I wrote the OP with a conservative mindset, and on reflection I concede that under certain circumstances the gap could be smaller than 8 seconds. However I think it still needs to be larger than most people believe.
The general PH consensus is that feeling/judgment is important, and Von’s point “The time to overtake is when, having observed everything, the question is: Why not?” is easier to understand.
I like that statement too and I concede that it is a tad more succinct than my writing.
In my view the key part of Von’s advice is “having observed everything”. Applying that to my Example 2, I must observe and assess all of the following.
All that can influence the attitude of C1 (forward, left, and right of the carriage way)
All that can influence the attitude of C2
C2 – the vehicle to be overtaken by me (vehicle, occupants, driving style, body language)
C1 – the vehicle in front of the vehicle I want to overtake (vehicle, occupants, driving style, body language)…to the extent possible at greater distance
C4 – vehicle behind me (vehicle, occupants, driving style, body language, and attitude)
All that can influence me not covered by one of the other observations (e.g. road conditions my own vehicle etc)
If I manage the above and the overtake is on then the minimum gap required between C2 and C1 (my target gap) is 4 seconds. If I want to introduce some extra margin then I might look for a 5 to 6 second gap. Roughly speaking that’s 100m at 40mph, and that’s a pleasing simple figure to remember.
I remember being eighteen and feeling/judging that overtakes were on and comfortable. Would I feel the same now in similar situations? I argue that feeling and experience combined with analysis is required. I read 10 Pence Short’s thread and it’s clear that the consequences of getting overtakes wrong will be severe, and a conservative attitude is no bad thing.
In summary, my revised view is that with perfect observation and planning, the minimum gap I should look for is 5 to 6 seconds or 100m (assuming 40mph is the original speed).
I gave it some more thought. I wrote the OP with a conservative mindset, and on reflection I concede that under certain circumstances the gap could be smaller than 8 seconds. However I think it still needs to be larger than most people believe.
The general PH consensus is that feeling/judgment is important, and Von’s point “The time to overtake is when, having observed everything, the question is: Why not?” is easier to understand.
I like that statement too and I concede that it is a tad more succinct than my writing.
In my view the key part of Von’s advice is “having observed everything”. Applying that to my Example 2, I must observe and assess all of the following.
All that can influence the attitude of C1 (forward, left, and right of the carriage way)
All that can influence the attitude of C2
C2 – the vehicle to be overtaken by me (vehicle, occupants, driving style, body language)
C1 – the vehicle in front of the vehicle I want to overtake (vehicle, occupants, driving style, body language)…to the extent possible at greater distance
C4 – vehicle behind me (vehicle, occupants, driving style, body language, and attitude)
All that can influence me not covered by one of the other observations (e.g. road conditions my own vehicle etc)
If I manage the above and the overtake is on then the minimum gap required between C2 and C1 (my target gap) is 4 seconds. If I want to introduce some extra margin then I might look for a 5 to 6 second gap. Roughly speaking that’s 100m at 40mph, and that’s a pleasing simple figure to remember.
I remember being eighteen and feeling/judging that overtakes were on and comfortable. Would I feel the same now in similar situations? I argue that feeling and experience combined with analysis is required. I read 10 Pence Short’s thread and it’s clear that the consequences of getting overtakes wrong will be severe, and a conservative attitude is no bad thing.
In summary, my revised view is that with perfect observation and planning, the minimum gap I should look for is 5 to 6 seconds or 100m (assuming 40mph is the original speed).
GreenV8S said:
broadbean747 said:
In summary, my revised view is that with perfect observation and planning, the minimum gap I should look for is 5 to 6 seconds or 100m (assuming 40mph is the original speed).
That still strikes me as massively excessive.Which piece of my gap would you discard?
I did three cars the other night up a hill.
Polo > TT 225 > Peugeot 406 Estate > me...
Clear A road, running into a right hand bend about 700 yards away, checked all round, clear, went for it in 4th and passed them all with about 200 yards till the bend and just coasted into it without braking.
Lovely and smooth. No really clear gap to jump into except the one between 1 and 2 (two cars to pass), but having followed this procession for about 6 miles along a national limit road at about 40-50mph, and a further 7 miles to go, I decided it was the time to make progress if I was going to (next stretch of road is very poor for overtaking)
I'd already seen several of the following cars looking sheepish to overtake earlier on but basically not bothering (the TT could have rocketed past with 225bhp), so I decided if they didn't want to make progress, and leave a decent gap for others to make progress past them, then an 'anti-social' gap taking, had oncoming traffic presented itself, would be reasonable for me (slotting in between 1 and 2, and I knew I'd easily pass 2 and 3 in the gap that was clear when I committed, so saw that essentially as a truck consisting of a TT and a Peugeot 406, with a nice ish gap up to the Polo)
There were passing gaps earlier on, but I left those for the cars ahead to take, which they didn't.
I feel as time goes by, the 'target' gap can reduce to what would otherwise be seen as anti-social. Of course the idea that 'why not' still springs to mind as the best time to overtake, but I think if others won't show initiative and bunch up fairly closely to not allow others to take the initiative 'nicely', then I think it's ok to 'appear' more pushy.
Afterall, we all get flashed on clear open roads, so to some people even the act of overtaking is 'anti-social'
Dave
Polo > TT 225 > Peugeot 406 Estate > me...
Clear A road, running into a right hand bend about 700 yards away, checked all round, clear, went for it in 4th and passed them all with about 200 yards till the bend and just coasted into it without braking.
Lovely and smooth. No really clear gap to jump into except the one between 1 and 2 (two cars to pass), but having followed this procession for about 6 miles along a national limit road at about 40-50mph, and a further 7 miles to go, I decided it was the time to make progress if I was going to (next stretch of road is very poor for overtaking)
I'd already seen several of the following cars looking sheepish to overtake earlier on but basically not bothering (the TT could have rocketed past with 225bhp), so I decided if they didn't want to make progress, and leave a decent gap for others to make progress past them, then an 'anti-social' gap taking, had oncoming traffic presented itself, would be reasonable for me (slotting in between 1 and 2, and I knew I'd easily pass 2 and 3 in the gap that was clear when I committed, so saw that essentially as a truck consisting of a TT and a Peugeot 406, with a nice ish gap up to the Polo)
There were passing gaps earlier on, but I left those for the cars ahead to take, which they didn't.
I feel as time goes by, the 'target' gap can reduce to what would otherwise be seen as anti-social. Of course the idea that 'why not' still springs to mind as the best time to overtake, but I think if others won't show initiative and bunch up fairly closely to not allow others to take the initiative 'nicely', then I think it's ok to 'appear' more pushy.
Afterall, we all get flashed on clear open roads, so to some people even the act of overtaking is 'anti-social'
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 9th September 17:16
That does rather sound like a 500 yard overtake in 350 yards of space reasonably known to be clear.
I'm sure you would have tried to muscled your way back in had you needed to, hoping that the lead vehicle didn't brake to help you just as you did, but I don't have confidence from your description that you did a two car overtake and then assessed the third from 400 yrds to the corner.
I'm sure you would have tried to muscled your way back in had you needed to, hoping that the lead vehicle didn't brake to help you just as you did, but I don't have confidence from your description that you did a two car overtake and then assessed the third from 400 yrds to the corner.
Mr Whippy said:
I did three cars the other night up a hill.
Polo > TT 225 > Peugeot 406 Estate > me...
Clear A road, running into a right hand bend about 700 yards away, checked all round, clear, went for it in 4th and passed them all with about 200 yards till the bend and just coasted into it without braking.
Lovely and smooth. No really clear gap to jump into except the one between 1 and 2 (two cars to pass), but having followed this procession for about 6 miles along a national limit road at about 40-50mph, and a further 7 miles to go, I decided it was the time to make progress if I was going to (next stretch of road is very poor for overtaking)
I'd already seen several of the following cars looking sheepish to overtake earlier on but basically not bothering (the TT could have rocketed past with 225bhp), so I decided if they didn't want to make progress, and leave a decent gap for others to make progress past them, then an 'anti-social' gap taking, had oncoming traffic presented itself, would be reasonable for me (slotting in between 1 and 2, and I knew I'd easily pass 2 and 3 in the gap that was clear when I committed, so saw that essentially as a truck consisting of a TT and a Peugeot 406, with a nice ish gap up to the Polo)
There were passing gaps earlier on, but I left those for the cars ahead to take, which they didn't.
I feel as time goes by, the 'target' gap can reduce to what would otherwise be seen as anti-social. Of course the idea that 'why not' still springs to mind as the best time to overtake, but I think if others won't show initiative and bunch up fairly closely to not allow others to take the initiative 'nicely', then I think it's ok to 'appear' more pushy.
Afterall, we all get flashed on clear open roads, so to some people even the act of overtaking is 'anti-social'
Dave
I understand where you're coming from, but I think it sounds like really, you'd probably missed your chance, and might have just shrugged it off. The other drivers could well have been thinking, 'why didn't he do it further back, when it was clear.' Especially if you had have had to push back in. Any mishap and they would have been all too willing to witness your 'dangerous driving'.Polo > TT 225 > Peugeot 406 Estate > me...
Clear A road, running into a right hand bend about 700 yards away, checked all round, clear, went for it in 4th and passed them all with about 200 yards till the bend and just coasted into it without braking.
Lovely and smooth. No really clear gap to jump into except the one between 1 and 2 (two cars to pass), but having followed this procession for about 6 miles along a national limit road at about 40-50mph, and a further 7 miles to go, I decided it was the time to make progress if I was going to (next stretch of road is very poor for overtaking)
I'd already seen several of the following cars looking sheepish to overtake earlier on but basically not bothering (the TT could have rocketed past with 225bhp), so I decided if they didn't want to make progress, and leave a decent gap for others to make progress past them, then an 'anti-social' gap taking, had oncoming traffic presented itself, would be reasonable for me (slotting in between 1 and 2, and I knew I'd easily pass 2 and 3 in the gap that was clear when I committed, so saw that essentially as a truck consisting of a TT and a Peugeot 406, with a nice ish gap up to the Polo)
There were passing gaps earlier on, but I left those for the cars ahead to take, which they didn't.
I feel as time goes by, the 'target' gap can reduce to what would otherwise be seen as anti-social. Of course the idea that 'why not' still springs to mind as the best time to overtake, but I think if others won't show initiative and bunch up fairly closely to not allow others to take the initiative 'nicely', then I think it's ok to 'appear' more pushy.
Afterall, we all get flashed on clear open roads, so to some people even the act of overtaking is 'anti-social'
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 9th September 17:16
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff