Do you rev match?
Poll: Do you rev match?
Total Members Polled: 140
Discussion
I'd be very interested to know the proportions of those on PH that use heel and toe / double de clutching. I am still surprised occasionally when I see particularly fast machinery being used on circuit and hearing the familiar surge of revs and additional deceleration as the clutch is let out without rev matching. So, do you rev match?
vonhosen said:
Too few options listed.
Yes, that's what I thought.I do try to rev match.
I never bother to attempt the heel/toe technique.
Most of my downchanges are done using DDC, but at lowish speeds I sometimes leave the synchromesh to deal with it; but that still needs rev matching before the clutch is re-engaged.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
After having fitted new discs and pads to the front of the car and bleeding the brake system, my brake pedal now bites a lot higher up and is noticeable firmer, so under normal braking it's now high enough for me to heel and toe across to the throttle. Still learning but want to get it dialled as I've learnt with the bike a quick blip of the throttle can make downchanges so much smoother.
Fidgits said:
yeah...
I do use the engine for some braking, but generally don't change down till I know its a good match (thereby avoiding the need to heel and toe or double-declutch on the public roads)
I do use the engine for some braking, but generally don't change down till I know its a good match (thereby avoiding the need to heel and toe or double-declutch on the public roads)
Brake to desired road speed, clutch in, blip throttle to match revs with lower gear while selecting gear, clutch out.
Not quick, but at least it saves me from inadvertently seeing de driver behind me in the eye most of times.
vonhosen said:
Too few options listed.
Yes, you're right. Looking at some of the other posts, I should have thought that there are other variations, such as rev matching but not simultaneously braking.I was also thinking more about track driving as opposed to road driving. I think rev matching is only really necessary for committed track use. Of course it makes progress smoother on the road but I would never criticise someone for not using heel and toe on the public roads.
Btw, Vonhosen, I seem to remember someone mentioning you are a police officer, do pursuit drivers use heel and toe?, and what is your view on members of the public using the technique on public roads?
Edited to say that I can't really change the poll now as it would invalidate the results, but it should still give a basic idea as to the rev matching habits of PH members.
Edited by SlipStream77 on Thursday 7th August 18:34
I most certainly rev match and note the continual referral to down changes. It is also good practice to rev match up changes especially at higher speeds.
The need or desire to learn heel and toe is an interesting one. I am not for one moment suggesting there is anything wrong with it, it is a good skill, especially for those who want to go on track days. However, for normal road conditions advanced drivers should be forward planning their drive to meet most conditions with little if any need for braking other than stopping, let alone braking and a gear change. I can accept that Mr Average has to apply the brakes for no apparent reason on reaching speeds as high as 35 mph and seeing a bend (or any other minor hazard) but a good advanced driver should be capable of putting together a progressive drive on most roads with little more than ease and squeeze for the most part. - For class one, the examiner will know the brake points, if any, for a given stretch of road and dock marks if you get it wrong. Obviously pursuit or emergency response driving is a different ball game and if you can do it heel and toe can be in play.
The need or desire to learn heel and toe is an interesting one. I am not for one moment suggesting there is anything wrong with it, it is a good skill, especially for those who want to go on track days. However, for normal road conditions advanced drivers should be forward planning their drive to meet most conditions with little if any need for braking other than stopping, let alone braking and a gear change. I can accept that Mr Average has to apply the brakes for no apparent reason on reaching speeds as high as 35 mph and seeing a bend (or any other minor hazard) but a good advanced driver should be capable of putting together a progressive drive on most roads with little more than ease and squeeze for the most part. - For class one, the examiner will know the brake points, if any, for a given stretch of road and dock marks if you get it wrong. Obviously pursuit or emergency response driving is a different ball game and if you can do it heel and toe can be in play.
Edited by Jules2477 on Friday 8th August 08:13
Jules2477 said:
I most certainly rev match and note the continual referral to down changes. It is also good practice to rev match up changes especially at higher speeds.
I'm a bit puzzled what you mean with that - in a car with manually operated gearbox I'd say it's good practice to take your foot of the accelerator while shifitng gear, anyway. Unless I seriously mess up my shift (not unknown of in my RHD car 
) or the engine has a flywheel like a millstone or some wierd 'green' afterburning engine management characteristic on lifting the throttle, I find the revs are usually quite well matched on upshifts without consciously doing anything towards it?From previous discussions about this topic, most people on here say that they rev match, but not during braking with heel and toe. So they'll brake, come off the brake, match the revs, then deal with the hazard/corner etc. That needs to be an option on the poll I think.
Personally, I rev match every downchange that I do, usually with heel and toe. This is because a) I like to keep a foot over the brake for as long as possible if there's a hazard/corner ahead and b) because I usually blend brakes into steering for optimum smoothness and cornering balance. Heel and toe is the only option for me if I wish to do both of these things. I would never dream of letting the clutch up without rev matching - I'd sooner scrape a fork through my teeth or run my fingernails down a blackboard
Personally, I rev match every downchange that I do, usually with heel and toe. This is because a) I like to keep a foot over the brake for as long as possible if there's a hazard/corner ahead and b) because I usually blend brakes into steering for optimum smoothness and cornering balance. Heel and toe is the only option for me if I wish to do both of these things. I would never dream of letting the clutch up without rev matching - I'd sooner scrape a fork through my teeth or run my fingernails down a blackboard
900T-R said:
Jules2477 said:
I most certainly rev match and note the continual referral to down changes. It is also good practice to rev match up changes especially at higher speeds.
I'm a bit puzzled what you mean with that - in a car with manually operated gearbox I'd say it's good practice to take your foot of the accelerator while shifitng gear, anyway. Unless I seriously mess up my shift (not unknown of in my RHD car ) or the engine has a flywheel like a millstone or some wierd 'green' afterburning engine management characteristic on lifting the throttle, I find the revs are usually quite well matched on upshifts without consciously doing anything towards it?Jules2477 said:
I am sure you must have been with drivers where you have felt every change, up or down, because they lack any finesse or pride.
Must admit with both my private cars featuring 'built' engines with lightened internals/flywheels, the revs can drop rather too quickly on upchanges when I'm shifting erm, 'leisurely'...mostly after having missed the 2-3rd shift before
Edited by 900T-R on Friday 8th August 08:16
Jules2477 said:
However, for normal road conditions advanced drivers should be forward planning their drive to meet most conditions with little if any need for braking other than stopping, let alone braking and a gear change.
I can accept that Mr Average has to apply the brakes for no apparent reason on reaching speeds as high as 35 mph and seeing a bend (or any other minor hazard) but a good advanced driver should be capable of putting together a progressive drive on most roads with little more than ease and squeeze for the most part. - For class one, the examiner will know the brake points, if any, for a given stretch of road and dock marks if you get it wrong.
Indeed.I can accept that Mr Average has to apply the brakes for no apparent reason on reaching speeds as high as 35 mph and seeing a bend (or any other minor hazard) but a good advanced driver should be capable of putting together a progressive drive on most roads with little more than ease and squeeze for the most part. - For class one, the examiner will know the brake points, if any, for a given stretch of road and dock marks if you get it wrong.
Certainly, getting "braking followed by gearchange" into the brain is a great starter technique.
For those FEW who wish to (or are required to) raise their game level to
"Very Advanced", a significant reduction in braking is required.
Thus this extract from a handout of mine - is not normally REALLY understood:-
"Follow a good driver along a winding and twisting country road and there is hardly a twinkle of brake lights to maintain a high average speed.
Acceleration sense is closely allied to gearbox sense and a driver without the latter seldom has the former"
This suggests a driving style which is the antithesis of the
"I ALWAYS use heel/toe" brigade.
Heel/toe being sometimes used when in pursuit mode, when REALLY pressing it.
Not a scenario where passenger comfort is high on the radar.
Edit - must be PC - "pursuit" should now read "following".
Edited by 1950trevorP on Friday 8th August 08:24
heel & toe and rev matching always when "making progress" (obviously not if just bimbling along in traffic), it is instinctive now and I don't even realise I am doing it, till I take someone out and they comment on me "blipping the throttle" while downshifting.
can't do it on the current diesel 159 courtesy car I have been given, though - the throttle response is too slow!
Have to rev match in the Dakota - otherwise sometimes locks up the rears in the wet on downshifts - although you would need size 15 feet to heel and toe it - pedals are waaaaay to far apart!
went through a stage when learning to rev match/ heel & toe of changing gear without clutch, just by rev matching, that was fun!
can't do it on the current diesel 159 courtesy car I have been given, though - the throttle response is too slow!
Have to rev match in the Dakota - otherwise sometimes locks up the rears in the wet on downshifts - although you would need size 15 feet to heel and toe it - pedals are waaaaay to far apart!
went through a stage when learning to rev match/ heel & toe of changing gear without clutch, just by rev matching, that was fun!
Edited by filski666 on Friday 8th August 08:21
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