IAM - Changing gear whilst braking...
Discussion
Have had my first IAM drive a couple of weeks ago. Found most of it to be fairly easy to pick up, bar this one thing.
Personally, I don't see the benefit behind separating the process of braking and then changing gear, what's so bad about doing both at the same time?
Secondly, does anyone have any tips about breaking the habit? I've always changed gear whilst braking (when needed), ever since day 1 of driving, so I'm quite stuck in my ways! :s
Personally, I don't see the benefit behind separating the process of braking and then changing gear, what's so bad about doing both at the same time?
Secondly, does anyone have any tips about breaking the habit? I've always changed gear whilst braking (when needed), ever since day 1 of driving, so I'm quite stuck in my ways! :s
Why separate? Well cos they say you have to to pass their test is the pragmatic answer, although the theory is that there's less to go wrong and you only know what speed you are doing (and hence which gear you need) when your braking is finished. Whether you choose to do it or not, it's a handy technique to be able to do when you want to, so stick with learning it. It might even be good for your driving!
As for techniques -- try braking earlier -- and importantly, finish braking earlier (note also possible by braking firmer). Pick a point on approach where you will have come (smoothly) off the brakes which gives you enough time to roll for a while changing gear, before you need to drive through (round, over) the hazard. I find the last "SLOW" is a good reference point on a lot of tight corners - YMMV.
When you take the gear change, why not do it completely differently to help break the habit -- really concentrate on the gear-change -- double declutch, match revs nicely, the works. Make your brain and muscles relearn doing it without the brake.
And above all practice practice practice. For practice makes permanent.
Good luck.
As for techniques -- try braking earlier -- and importantly, finish braking earlier (note also possible by braking firmer). Pick a point on approach where you will have come (smoothly) off the brakes which gives you enough time to roll for a while changing gear, before you need to drive through (round, over) the hazard. I find the last "SLOW" is a good reference point on a lot of tight corners - YMMV.
When you take the gear change, why not do it completely differently to help break the habit -- really concentrate on the gear-change -- double declutch, match revs nicely, the works. Make your brain and muscles relearn doing it without the brake.
And above all practice practice practice. For practice makes permanent.
Good luck.
From my ragbag of 'driving tips' that I dip into to help my Associates, the best I have found on the subject is by Vonhosen...I think I asked his permission to use it - I know I did with one of his articles...
""In the absence of any specific hazards that you are having problems with, here is some general advice.
Firstly a lot of people convince themselves that they are performing full seperation, when infact they actually perform partial overlaps. I'll explain....
Full seperation
What should be happening for full seperation, is that when you are on the brake your left foot should not be over the clutch. If your left foot goes to the clutch early you will depress it before it is time, you can't help it. If it's not there you can't depress it. If you visualise the three pedals, the time that your foot should go to the clutch is at the same time as your foot moves from brake pedal to the accelerator, so they move to the right in unison. If you are doing it correctly it will not feel at all natural to start with, it should feel really exaggerated, so you don't have the foot over the clutch until the other foot has left the brake.
The most common cause for people not being able to seperate is not making enough time to do it, and the cause of that is insufficient second stage braking. You can't brake to the hazard, you have to brake away from it. The system is a series of appointments & we all know that if you are late for your first appointment it has a knock on effect & you run out of time.
If we think of a typical tightish left turn from a major road into a minor road, you are only going to turn in at say 10mph. At 10mph we are travelling at 15ft per second. We need at least 2 seconds for our unhurried gear change in the system. That is 30ft for the gear change. What you effectively have to visualise is an artic parked between you & the junction right up to the mouth of it. You need to be at the right speed for the turn & off the brakes when you get to the rear of the artic. Then as you travel along the length of the artic you get your unhurried gear (with a good "Rev" as the gear lever passes neutral) & be off the clutch with the pedals blanced before entry. If you've got the timing exactly right, you should be off the clutch & just have time to raise your left hand to your mouth & blow on your fingernails before you take the wheel with your left hand at a 12 O'clock position & pull the steering to turn in.
When you are braking away from the junction to make room, think artic !
A common fault is people doing partial seperation (but believing they are actually seperating). You shouldn't be partial seperating, it's full seperation or overlap.
Partial seperation
If the foot goes to the clutch it will inevitably be depressed too early. Those who suffer from this do the following. As they release the brake pedal, because the foot is over the clutch they depress the clutch, in effect the feet just passing each other at the top end of pedal travel (just starting to presss one whilst just finishing with the other). This shouldn't happen. Anyone watching your feet should see clear seperation & both feet moving right at the sametime as described in full seperation.
Full overlap
A full overlap is perfectly acceptable on the grounds of safety. It shouldn't of course be a forced action as a result of a misjudgement, but should instead be part of a pre-planned approach to compromise the system on the grounds of safety. In commentary you would say "I am going to overlap on the grounds of safety because......" NOT " I overlapped because...." (which is historical & never convincing.)
For the full overlap you would extend the braking (so it's slightly less firm in the 2nd stage brakes) & as you are alongside the artic whilst still on the brake, you fully depress the clutch & take the required gear (there is no "Rev" on the downchange with an overlap. This is not a problem because road speed & engine speed will be so low & slightly slower than if you had seperated.) You should then start to gently release the clutch & effectively come off the clutch & brake pedal together at the correct speed just prior to turning in. You should still also be off the brake & clutch, with your foot on the accelerator, BEFORE you turn in.
The typical times that an overlap would be used as part of a pre-planned approach are.
1) Where you wish to turn left or right from a major road into a minor & it is on a steep downhill gradient. This is because where you unhurriedly take your gear over that 2 seconds, the vehicle will roll on a great deal, picking up speed & this will result on your entry speed being too high with you then ending up running wide into the new road & into conflict with others.
2) Where you overlap for one close behind so as to meet with their expectations of your braking. Most people turn left steering with one hand & catching a gear mid turn with the other. This is what they will expect you to do also. They expect you to brake all the way up to & into the turn. They will not expect you to brake firmly away from a junction at up to an artic distance away. So we overlap to meet with their expectations in order to not get an adverse reaction from them & so that they don't run into the back of us. We still should be off the brake & clutch before turning in though.
In general if you are considering an overlap, if there is a vehicle behind & it is going to have to brake for you taking the turn, then you can justify the overlap.
3) Where we want to take a junction left & there is a vehicle in our current road waiting to turn right across our path into that junction. Again we overlap to meet with their expectations of braking. If we brake away in these circumstances they may see this as an invitation to turn in ahead of us & pound to a penny they turn in as you come off the brake to get your gear resulting in a hurried re-application of the brakes to avoid a collision.
4) Where we want to take a junction right & there is a vehicle in that junction waiting to pull out & turn right across our path. This again is so that they don't see our braking as an invitation to pull out across our path causing potential danger.
We don't do an overlap where we want to turn right in order to complete the turn across the path of a quick one towards on the our road. This is because we would then be doing the overlap for speed (progress) NOT for safety. We instead would have to pull up & take 1st gear, wait for the vehicle to pass & then turn in when safe. We can compromise the system for safety as safety is the top priority, but we can't compromise the system for speed, which has a lower priority than the system itself.
Remember the order of priority is
Safety
System
Smoothness
Speed
You can compromise one "S" for an "S" above it in the list, but not for one below it.
The first thing you need to do is get used to braking without having your foot near the clutch & to do that try this exercise. Find some very quiet roads to practice on & make sure you check your mirrors & that it is clear behind before you do it. At a decent speed come off the drive & use a little acceleration sense before feeding in the gentle brakes & going smoothly to firmer brakes (& I mean firm). The attitude of the car needs to change so that the weight transfers forward. If your car is a petrol car & you are in 3rd you should be able to get comfortably down to about 10-12mph without it stalling. Make sure as you do it your foot is nowhere near the clutch. When you have finsihed the firm braking & got down to that speed, gently release the brake pedal (3rd stage braking, don't jump off it !) so that they weight transfers gently back & inertia lets the vehicle roll on.
Count to 2 then go to the clutch & take second gear. This is really exaggerating the seperation.
Accelerate back up to speed & repeat. Just get used to braking firmly away without your foot over the clutch so that you have the confidence to do it.
As it becomes easier to do, you can reduce the time you wait to take the gear.
The hand shouldn't leave the wheel to go to the gear lever unless the foot is going to the clutch & vice versa.
The only time other than a planned overlap, that the foot should go to the clutch whilst you are still on the brake, is when you think it may stall & you have to depress the clutch to prevent it. Anytime you do this you should be going to 1st gear OR it's an overlap & not on the grounds of safety either.
_____________
Any views expressed are mine & mine alone.
I do not represent my employer or these forums.""
Pick out the bits from this that might help you... and maybe thank Von if they work for you?
BOF.
""In the absence of any specific hazards that you are having problems with, here is some general advice.
Firstly a lot of people convince themselves that they are performing full seperation, when infact they actually perform partial overlaps. I'll explain....
Full seperation
What should be happening for full seperation, is that when you are on the brake your left foot should not be over the clutch. If your left foot goes to the clutch early you will depress it before it is time, you can't help it. If it's not there you can't depress it. If you visualise the three pedals, the time that your foot should go to the clutch is at the same time as your foot moves from brake pedal to the accelerator, so they move to the right in unison. If you are doing it correctly it will not feel at all natural to start with, it should feel really exaggerated, so you don't have the foot over the clutch until the other foot has left the brake.
The most common cause for people not being able to seperate is not making enough time to do it, and the cause of that is insufficient second stage braking. You can't brake to the hazard, you have to brake away from it. The system is a series of appointments & we all know that if you are late for your first appointment it has a knock on effect & you run out of time.
If we think of a typical tightish left turn from a major road into a minor road, you are only going to turn in at say 10mph. At 10mph we are travelling at 15ft per second. We need at least 2 seconds for our unhurried gear change in the system. That is 30ft for the gear change. What you effectively have to visualise is an artic parked between you & the junction right up to the mouth of it. You need to be at the right speed for the turn & off the brakes when you get to the rear of the artic. Then as you travel along the length of the artic you get your unhurried gear (with a good "Rev" as the gear lever passes neutral) & be off the clutch with the pedals blanced before entry. If you've got the timing exactly right, you should be off the clutch & just have time to raise your left hand to your mouth & blow on your fingernails before you take the wheel with your left hand at a 12 O'clock position & pull the steering to turn in.
When you are braking away from the junction to make room, think artic !
A common fault is people doing partial seperation (but believing they are actually seperating). You shouldn't be partial seperating, it's full seperation or overlap.
Partial seperation
If the foot goes to the clutch it will inevitably be depressed too early. Those who suffer from this do the following. As they release the brake pedal, because the foot is over the clutch they depress the clutch, in effect the feet just passing each other at the top end of pedal travel (just starting to presss one whilst just finishing with the other). This shouldn't happen. Anyone watching your feet should see clear seperation & both feet moving right at the sametime as described in full seperation.
Full overlap
A full overlap is perfectly acceptable on the grounds of safety. It shouldn't of course be a forced action as a result of a misjudgement, but should instead be part of a pre-planned approach to compromise the system on the grounds of safety. In commentary you would say "I am going to overlap on the grounds of safety because......" NOT " I overlapped because...." (which is historical & never convincing.)
For the full overlap you would extend the braking (so it's slightly less firm in the 2nd stage brakes) & as you are alongside the artic whilst still on the brake, you fully depress the clutch & take the required gear (there is no "Rev" on the downchange with an overlap. This is not a problem because road speed & engine speed will be so low & slightly slower than if you had seperated.) You should then start to gently release the clutch & effectively come off the clutch & brake pedal together at the correct speed just prior to turning in. You should still also be off the brake & clutch, with your foot on the accelerator, BEFORE you turn in.
The typical times that an overlap would be used as part of a pre-planned approach are.
1) Where you wish to turn left or right from a major road into a minor & it is on a steep downhill gradient. This is because where you unhurriedly take your gear over that 2 seconds, the vehicle will roll on a great deal, picking up speed & this will result on your entry speed being too high with you then ending up running wide into the new road & into conflict with others.
2) Where you overlap for one close behind so as to meet with their expectations of your braking. Most people turn left steering with one hand & catching a gear mid turn with the other. This is what they will expect you to do also. They expect you to brake all the way up to & into the turn. They will not expect you to brake firmly away from a junction at up to an artic distance away. So we overlap to meet with their expectations in order to not get an adverse reaction from them & so that they don't run into the back of us. We still should be off the brake & clutch before turning in though.
In general if you are considering an overlap, if there is a vehicle behind & it is going to have to brake for you taking the turn, then you can justify the overlap.
3) Where we want to take a junction left & there is a vehicle in our current road waiting to turn right across our path into that junction. Again we overlap to meet with their expectations of braking. If we brake away in these circumstances they may see this as an invitation to turn in ahead of us & pound to a penny they turn in as you come off the brake to get your gear resulting in a hurried re-application of the brakes to avoid a collision.
4) Where we want to take a junction right & there is a vehicle in that junction waiting to pull out & turn right across our path. This again is so that they don't see our braking as an invitation to pull out across our path causing potential danger.
We don't do an overlap where we want to turn right in order to complete the turn across the path of a quick one towards on the our road. This is because we would then be doing the overlap for speed (progress) NOT for safety. We instead would have to pull up & take 1st gear, wait for the vehicle to pass & then turn in when safe. We can compromise the system for safety as safety is the top priority, but we can't compromise the system for speed, which has a lower priority than the system itself.
Remember the order of priority is
Safety
System
Smoothness
Speed
You can compromise one "S" for an "S" above it in the list, but not for one below it.
The first thing you need to do is get used to braking without having your foot near the clutch & to do that try this exercise. Find some very quiet roads to practice on & make sure you check your mirrors & that it is clear behind before you do it. At a decent speed come off the drive & use a little acceleration sense before feeding in the gentle brakes & going smoothly to firmer brakes (& I mean firm). The attitude of the car needs to change so that the weight transfers forward. If your car is a petrol car & you are in 3rd you should be able to get comfortably down to about 10-12mph without it stalling. Make sure as you do it your foot is nowhere near the clutch. When you have finsihed the firm braking & got down to that speed, gently release the brake pedal (3rd stage braking, don't jump off it !) so that they weight transfers gently back & inertia lets the vehicle roll on.
Count to 2 then go to the clutch & take second gear. This is really exaggerating the seperation.
Accelerate back up to speed & repeat. Just get used to braking firmly away without your foot over the clutch so that you have the confidence to do it.
As it becomes easier to do, you can reduce the time you wait to take the gear.
The hand shouldn't leave the wheel to go to the gear lever unless the foot is going to the clutch & vice versa.
The only time other than a planned overlap, that the foot should go to the clutch whilst you are still on the brake, is when you think it may stall & you have to depress the clutch to prevent it. Anytime you do this you should be going to 1st gear OR it's an overlap & not on the grounds of safety either.
_____________
Any views expressed are mine & mine alone.
I do not represent my employer or these forums.""
Pick out the bits from this that might help you... and maybe thank Von if they work for you?
BOF.
jammy_basturd said:
Personally, I don't see the benefit behind separating the process of braking and then changing gear, what's so bad about doing both at the same time?
Secondly, does anyone have any tips about breaking the habit? I've always changed gear whilst braking (when needed), ever since day 1 of driving, so I'm quite stuck in my ways! :s
One benefit is that you can rev match for the lower gear.Secondly, does anyone have any tips about breaking the habit? I've always changed gear whilst braking (when needed), ever since day 1 of driving, so I'm quite stuck in my ways! :s
jammy_basturd said:
Secondly, does anyone have any tips about breaking the habit? I've always changed gear whilst braking (when needed), ever since day 1 of driving, so I'm quite stuck in my ways! :s
Concentrate on keeping both hands on the wheel. One of the parts of muscle memory that I find with clients is that the minute they start braking, they put a hand on the gearlever. If the hand isn't there, you aren't tempted to combine the movements.Wow ! what a lot of detail about system and well written too - what all seams a bit slow or even tedious to start with becomes second nature, faster and highly polished so it is well worth pursuing. Interestingly, unless a driver is particularly talented, you will quickly become aware of just how rough a none systematic approach is to passengers at any speed. It will be something you will tend to monitor about your untrained friends once you have been there - Just don't say anything - You can tell them their partner is ugly but mention anything about their driving........................ !
A useful tip for practicing gear/speed, obs, planning and all the rest. On fairly open urban roads/roundabout systems etc, See if you can drive from one side of town to the other without braking. This will force you to really plan well ahead. improve your flow and so on. You will probably be thinking that you will drive slower but in reality you may actually find it much more progressive. Amazing how often the guy who has just raced away in front of you is stationary at the next, say traffic lights, whilst you glide through on green with perhaps little more than one slowly exercised gear change. Judging roundabouts is another real good one where slower approach may see you join a flow rather than stopping and waiting for a gap. - This can all look really good to the trained eye and will get your feet well away from overlaping to brake and change gear.
Anyway - good luck
A useful tip for practicing gear/speed, obs, planning and all the rest. On fairly open urban roads/roundabout systems etc, See if you can drive from one side of town to the other without braking. This will force you to really plan well ahead. improve your flow and so on. You will probably be thinking that you will drive slower but in reality you may actually find it much more progressive. Amazing how often the guy who has just raced away in front of you is stationary at the next, say traffic lights, whilst you glide through on green with perhaps little more than one slowly exercised gear change. Judging roundabouts is another real good one where slower approach may see you join a flow rather than stopping and waiting for a gap. - This can all look really good to the trained eye and will get your feet well away from overlaping to brake and change gear.
Anyway - good luck
Edited by Jules2477 on Saturday 26th July 12:45
StressedDave said:
jammy_basturd said:
Secondly, does anyone have any tips about breaking the habit? I've always changed gear whilst braking (when needed), ever since day 1 of driving, so I'm quite stuck in my ways! :s
Concentrate on keeping both hands on the wheel. One of the parts of muscle memory that I find with clients is that the minute they start braking, they put a hand on the gearlever. If the hand isn't there, you aren't tempted to combine the movements.
....although I have to admit I'm too tight-fisted to be either.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Dave,
"How much nicer to be thought of as a client, rather than a punter."
While infantile comments might be your thing, I prefer to try to post informative information in reply to drivers seeking advice...in this case, an excellent article by Vonhosen which has been appreciated by a couple of posters...and by many others in my IAM Group, with Vons' permission.
My use of the word 'punter' instead of Associate seems to have stuck in your mind for quite a long time now, and I did try to explain my shorthand posting?
As you chose, for whatever reason, not to 'get on with' the IAM, and did not finish the course or take the Test, you may not understand the thinking or the motivation of those of us who also do not agree with everything the IAM involves...but continue to use the best tools in the box...until something better comes along?
Any suggestions on how to to this better...or any constructive comments on how I can help my Associates (AKA punters)?
BOF.
"How much nicer to be thought of as a client, rather than a punter."
While infantile comments might be your thing, I prefer to try to post informative information in reply to drivers seeking advice...in this case, an excellent article by Vonhosen which has been appreciated by a couple of posters...and by many others in my IAM Group, with Vons' permission.
My use of the word 'punter' instead of Associate seems to have stuck in your mind for quite a long time now, and I did try to explain my shorthand posting?
As you chose, for whatever reason, not to 'get on with' the IAM, and did not finish the course or take the Test, you may not understand the thinking or the motivation of those of us who also do not agree with everything the IAM involves...but continue to use the best tools in the box...until something better comes along?
Any suggestions on how to to this better...or any constructive comments on how I can help my Associates (AKA punters)?
BOF.
BOF said:
Dave,
"How much nicer to be thought of as a client, rather than a punter."
While infantile comments might be your thing, I prefer to try to post informative information in reply to drivers seeking advice...in this case, an excellent article by Vonhosen which has been appreciated by a couple of posters...and by many others in my IAM Group, with Vons' permission.
My use of the word 'punter' instead of Associate seems to have stuck in your mind for quite a long time now, and I did try to explain my shorthand posting?
As you chose, for whatever reason, not to 'get on with' the IAM, and did not finish the course or take the Test, you may not understand the thinking or the motivation of those of us who also do not agree with everything the IAM involves...but continue to use the best tools in the box...until something better comes along?
Any suggestions on how to to this better...or any constructive comments on how I can help my Associates (AKA punters)?
BOF.
Oh dear, so you don't care for my contributions here, infantile or otherwise. OK, that's your prerogative, but you might bear in mind that I may not be the only one with an attitude problem. "How much nicer to be thought of as a client, rather than a punter."
While infantile comments might be your thing, I prefer to try to post informative information in reply to drivers seeking advice...in this case, an excellent article by Vonhosen which has been appreciated by a couple of posters...and by many others in my IAM Group, with Vons' permission.
My use of the word 'punter' instead of Associate seems to have stuck in your mind for quite a long time now, and I did try to explain my shorthand posting?
As you chose, for whatever reason, not to 'get on with' the IAM, and did not finish the course or take the Test, you may not understand the thinking or the motivation of those of us who also do not agree with everything the IAM involves...but continue to use the best tools in the box...until something better comes along?
Any suggestions on how to to this better...or any constructive comments on how I can help my Associates (AKA punters)?
BOF.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
At first, I hated the whole overlap thing, but having something to practise and aim for makes the everyday drives to the shop more fun. I still find myself hurtling into corners now and again, even when I remember the "artic rule of thumb" (which I read a while ago, and it helps.. cheers Von). Probably I need to be more firm on the second stage braking, but all these little tweaks and refinements that make it fun.
Once you nail it a few times, it doesn't feel so unnatural. Not everything works for everyone, and you can always ditch it once you pass your test.
I think H&T is a valid technique but there's much to be said about using separation to help build up your planning and observational skills on the entry to a corner. I've driven with a few advanced drivers recently and despite learning "the system" they still fail to brake enough for a corner whatever technique they choose to use. If that's the case then I'd rather they weren't trying to change gear at the same time given how unsettled the car will already be.
I try to H&T in my road car but i just cant get my feet on both pedal,I got size 11 feet and it just dont work, Pedal are to wide to use the left side of foot for brake and right for throttle and try to do it woth the toe for brake and heel for throttle and i have to apply alot of pressure to brake to get my heel close enough to throttle, Any one else suffer from this?
In a single seater its easier as pedals are closer so i can but i my road car just a no no.
In a single seater its easier as pedals are closer so i can but i my road car just a no no.
Silent1 said:
What's wrong with heel and toeing?
Who said there was anything essentially wrong with it ? - Another tool in the box requiring skill and dexterity but more a thing for getting round a track, other motor sport or possibly pursuit driving than needed for normal road driving. Hence it is not regarded as part of the system for teaching ordinary drivers advanced skills. Advanced driving skills will never win any races, speed being the lowest priority. Edited by Jules2477 on Sunday 27th July 00:21
BOF said:
Repeat...
"Any suggestions on how to to this better...or any constructive comments on how I can help my Associates (AKA punters)?"
BOF.
Not immediately. Based on some of the things you've told us about here and elsewhere I've no doubt that in practical terms you're doing a splendid job with your Associates, and I do mean that. Unfortunately, anything I might suggest to you is too likely to be dismissed as coming from an unqualified source - which I am, certainly in a formal sense - so there hardly seems much point."Any suggestions on how to to this better...or any constructive comments on how I can help my Associates (AKA punters)?"
BOF.
By the way, good though it is that you and your fellow Observers freely devote your time to helping others with their driving, you are not the only ones to be doing things on a voluntary and unpaid basis. During the past seven months I've been spending up to about 20 hours per week as a volunteer driver for the local community, driving people to hospital appointments, sometimes up to 100 miles outside my own area. For this I receive a mileage rate as a contribution to car running costs, but my time for this activity is completely unpaid.
Anyhow, never mind about all that. Maybe what I ought to do is nip down your way sometime and take you along to meet that Potter fellow. We could have a tootle round together, while the pair of you tell me about all my failings (some of which I already know about) and then I'll take you home before I return to civilisation. There you go, that'd cheer you up.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Silent1 said:
What's wrong with heel and toeing?
Nothing wrong with it as a technique where it's done skilfully.It's an overlap incorporating a rev, but not all vehicles have a pedal set up that makes it easy (or even possible). However if you are looking to adhere to roadcraft for an exam, you would only be doing it where an overlap was appropriate within roadcraft's teachings in the first place.
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 27th July 07:10
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