Heel/Toe??

[aciddrop616]

how do you do it, and whats the theory behind it ??

its something that both baffles and interests me.

so if someone could enlightne me then that'd be great

[GreenV8S]

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=heel+and+toe

[Digger.]

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=48&...

[sir_lurk_alot]

Ive just had a quick look at some of the posts on the link that Digger posted. Now im not the greatest driver, although I have joined my local IAM group and am waiting for an observer to be assigned.

The one thing that most of the posts seem to say about heel and toe is that you need to be breaking reasonably hard in order for it to work properly. Why not just break earlier and be in more control of the car though, wouldnt that be safer?

I can understand the need for heel and toe on a track as it allows you to break later thus giving you an advantage. Whats the point in doing it on a public highway though? I may be missing the point but I would have thought that by breaking earlier and being in more control of the car would be better than breaking hard, whilst blipping the throttle and changing gear in anticipation of negotiating the obstacle. Is it not also more economical and kinder to the car if everything is done in a relaxed fashion as well rather than a hurried manner where you try to do everything at once?

[Animal]

It's only a hurried movement if you're hurrying. I heel and toe most of the time on the road when downshifting firstly because it's become a habit but also because it makes downshifting smoother.

Also, heel-and-toeing doesn't necessarily have to go hand in hand with hard, late braking. There's nothing stopping you from braking gradually down to the appropriate speed then changing down whilst covering the brake.

[havoc]

Animal said:

It's only a hurried movement if you're hurrying. I heel and toe most of the time on the road when downshifting firstly because it's become a habit but also because it makes downshifting smoother.

Also, heel-and-toeing doesn't necessarily have to go hand in hand with hard, late braking. There's nothing stopping you from braking gradually down to the appropriate speed then changing down whilst covering the brake.

Depends on the car and the brake pads/fluid/servo...i.e. the brake pedal needs to depress enough/little-enough for the rest of the foot (heel or right-side) to roll onto the throttle - too much and you'll miss it / too little and you'll end-up braking harder than you planned trying to blip the throttle.

In the 306 if I'm braking hard it's almost impossible, while in the 'teg if I'm being gentle on the brakes it's difficult.

[Don]

Video

[Don]

sir_lurk_alot said:

Ive just had a quick look at some of the posts on the link that Digger posted. Now im not the greatest driver, although I have joined my local IAM group and am waiting for an observer to be assigned.

The one thing that most of the posts seem to say about heel and toe is that you need to be breaking reasonably hard in order for it to work properly. Why not just break earlier and be in more control of the car though, wouldnt that be safer?

I can understand the need for heel and toe on a track as it allows you to break later thus giving you an advantage. Whats the point in doing it on a public highway though? I may be missing the point but I would have thought that by breaking earlier and being in more control of the car would be better than breaking hard, whilst blipping the throttle and changing gear in anticipation of negotiating the obstacle. Is it not also more economical and kinder to the car if everything is done in a relaxed fashion as well rather than a hurried manner where you try to do everything at once?

You won't need heel and toe to pass an IAM test. It is worthwhile learning how to do it afterwards, though, for both on-road driving and track days...

[Alex]

There appears to be a misconception that heel and toe equals double-declutching, but this is not the case. You can perform one, but not the other, and vice versa.

I use heel and toe so that I can double-declutch whilst simultaneously braking.

[Jules2477]

Don said:

Video

The alternative method dependant on pedal position is to cover both pedals with the sole of your shoe and pivot on the heel to blip the throttle with the right side. With large feet I find this easier. (not so positive if braking hard before the change though as feet can slide off the brake pedal)

Edited by Jules2477 on Wednesday 30th July 18:39

Edited by Jules2477 on Wednesday 30th July 18:39

[leon_t]

I find it awkward try to use my heel to squeeze the throttle pedal, instead I tend to use more big toe on the brake and little toe on the accelerator (more like the previous poster saying about using the sole for both pedals).

[sir_lurk_alot]

Can you only use heel and toe for changing down through the gears?

I drive an old car and on cold mornings it often cuts out as I slow down on the approach to junctions. I have found myself trying to keep the revs up using my heel to control the accelerator whilst slowing down by using my toes on the break. There is no gear change involved as I have usually adjusted my speed and selected first by this time, it is simply to keep the engine running on cold mornings. Is this also heel and toe?

also,

Can you use heel and toe for hill starts? There are some traffic lights that I go through reasonably regularly that are on an incline. If I am only there for a few seconds would it be possible to hold the car using my toes on the break whilst building the revs with my heel and then releasing the break at the right time? I tried it the other day, the result was a bit slugish as I moved away until I could realign my foot properly. Or is this something that is simply a bad idea?

[havoc]

sir_lurk_alot said:

Can you only use heel and toe for changing down through the gears?

I drive an old car and on cold mornings it often cuts out as I slow down on the approach to junctions. I have found myself trying to keep the revs up using my heel to control the accelerator whilst slowing down by using my toes on the break. There is no gear change involved as I have usually adjusted my speed and selected first by this time, it is simply to keep the engine running on cold mornings. Is this also heel and toe?

also,

Can you use heel and toe for hill starts? There are some traffic lights that I go through reasonably regularly that are on an incline. If I am only there for a few seconds would it be possible to hold the car using my toes on the break whilst building the revs with my heel and then releasing the break at the right time? I tried it the other day, the result was a bit slugish as I moved away until I could realign my foot properly. Or is this something that is simply a bad idea?

The first doesn't sound like an unreasonable idea as long as you're not compromising your braking.

The second...is what the handbrake is for. I wouldn't want to attempt the manoeuvre you suggest, as you'll find it very difficult to reposition your foot properly from brake-to-accelerator without releasing pressure from both completely at some point.

[sir_lurk_alot]

I tried the second idea in my '71 beetle, in a beetle the pedal assembly is on the floor of the foot well. With the accelerator pedal positioned in this way and being a large pedal, it's not too difficult to lift your toes off of the brake whilst applying more pressure to the accelerator with your heel. Then it is simply a case of re positioning your foot by pivoting it on the heel into a more comfortably position over the accelerator.

I have only tried it the once (when there was no other traffic around) as I said it was a little slugish and its not something I would want to get into the habit of doing. Was just curious really as to whether it is a valid technique (which I am guessing the answer is no).

[mattikake]

And shy is it called heal and toe, when it should really be toe and heal? Something from the oldy days?

[pikeyboy]

Heel and toe is used predominantly for powerful rear wheel drive cars. The theory is that you blip the throttle whilst on the brake (both with your right foot) as your changing down a gear to syncronise the engine and road wheel speeds to prevent you locking a rear wheel...if you change down and use enigne braking it's to prevent that engine labouring sound. in soemthing like a caterham its quite important as it is possible if at full chat or i the wet you could lock a rear wheel and fall off the black stuff.
dont really need it i nevery day motoring. however once you get into the habbit and you have a car that pops and bangs on the overun, heel and toe is your ears best friend....

[Dr Jekyll]

pikeyboy said:

Heel and toe is used predominantly for powerful rear wheel drive cars. The theory is that you blip the throttle whilst on the brake (both with your right foot) as your changing down a gear to syncronise the engine and road wheel speeds to prevent you locking a rear wheel...if you change down and use enigne braking it's to prevent that engine labouring sound. in soemthing like a caterham its quite important as it is possible if at full chat or i the wet you could lock a rear wheel and fall off the black stuff.
dont really need it i nevery day motoring. however once you get into the habbit and you have a car that pops and bangs on the overun, heel and toe is your ears best friend....

If you brake and change gear at the same time (essential technique or threat to civilisation according to opinion) you should heel and toe whether it's high powered RWD, low powered FWD or any combination of the above, because otherwise you can't match revs.

You stand a better chance of getting away without matching revs in a low powered FWD, but that doesn't make it right.

[rsv gone!]

sir_lurk_alot said:

I drive an old car and on cold mornings it often cuts out as I slow down on the approach to junctions. I have found myself trying to keep the revs up using my heel to control the accelerator whilst slowing down by using my toes on the break. There is no gear change involved as I have usually adjusted my speed and selected first by this time, it is simply to keep the engine running on cold mornings.

This is how I learnt it - driving crappy cars that wouldn't idle, with poor handbrakes. Made hill starts fun.

[Alex]

pikeyboy said:

Heel and toe is used predominantly for powerful rear wheel drive cars. The theory is that you blip the throttle whilst on the brake (both with your right foot) as your changing down a gear to syncronise the engine and road wheel speeds to prevent you locking a rear wheel...if you change down and use enigne braking it's to prevent that engine labouring sound. in soemthing like a caterham its quite important as it is possible if at full chat or i the wet you could lock a rear wheel and fall off the black stuff.
dont really need it i nevery day motoring. however once you get into the habbit and you have a car that pops and bangs on the overun, heel and toe is your ears best friend....

What your talking about here is double-declutching (rev matching). This does not require heel and toe. However, to perform it while simultaneously braking does.

[pikeyboy]

Alex said:

pikeyboy said:

Heel and toe is used predominantly for powerful rear wheel drive cars. The theory is that you blip the throttle whilst on the brake (both with your right foot) as your changing down a gear to syncronise the engine and road wheel speeds to prevent you locking a rear wheel...if you change down and use enigne braking it's to prevent that engine labouring sound. in soemthing like a caterham its quite important as it is possible if at full chat or i the wet you could lock a rear wheel and fall off the black stuff.
dont really need it i nevery day motoring. however once you get into the habbit and you have a car that pops and bangs on the overun, heel and toe is your ears best friend....

What your talking about here is double-declutching (rev matching). This does not require heel and toe. However, to perform it while simultaneously braking does.

no I'm talking about heel and toe, ie you use you toe on the brake and the heel on the throttle and you only press the clutch once. Double de clutch (and its while since i have driven anything thats needed it) is when you pres the clutch in slip it into neutral let the clutch out blip the throttle to syncronise your input shaft to gearbox to main shaft speed engine speed and push in the clutch engage gear. Double declutch is used in the gearboxes without syncro's. heel and toe is not double declutching.