Speed is Relative!
Discussion
Just back from the Classic Le Mans in my son’s ’78 MG Midget and I have to say that it’s a long time since I’ve been on such a comparatively straightforward trip that has also been such an adventure! It was great fun but the whole time there was the distinct possibility that we might need the RAC to get us home again. Cooling capacity was marginal and just after we set off home we dropped to three cylinders for no apparent reason before, just as mysteriously, returning to the full complement of four. The car is in very good condition and I serviced it before we left but old cars just ain’t reliable by current standards.
Anyway, the point of this thread is to reflect on what a relative thing is speed. In the Midget we cruised top down at around 65 to 70 and felt as though we were really pushing on. Off the autoroutes, every overtake (and there were a number!) was, of necessity, a carefully planned and executed manoeuvre, albeit the Midget is so narrow it always felt as though we could squeeze past if things went wrong. Grip on wet roundabouts with old 145 section tyres was almost non existent but the feel and precision of the steering was something you just don’t get in modern cars. In France, at least, the car attracted smiles and waves, which was great – especially when the roads around Le Mans are crowded with much more interesting and expensive cars. Unlike the British public who generally just want you to get out of their way, the French really seemed to appreciate seeing an older car on the road.
Back in the regular car after 1,000 miles in the MG it was hard to believe that 70 could be so quiet and lacking in any sensation of speed. Is that a good thing? I suppose so when all you want to do is get from A to B painlessly. The knowledge that one has loads more tyre grip, braking power and, if the worst comes to the worst, air bags and crash structures is also a plus but the lack of sensation does illustrate why so many drivers fail to concentrate or leave adequate gaps on motorways.
For fun and adventure, however, I can recommend a trip in an old British sports car. Just take plenty of water, a few spares and a toolkit (and RAC roadside recovery!) You’ll develop great mechanical sympathy and rediscover lost driving skills!
Anyway, the point of this thread is to reflect on what a relative thing is speed. In the Midget we cruised top down at around 65 to 70 and felt as though we were really pushing on. Off the autoroutes, every overtake (and there were a number!) was, of necessity, a carefully planned and executed manoeuvre, albeit the Midget is so narrow it always felt as though we could squeeze past if things went wrong. Grip on wet roundabouts with old 145 section tyres was almost non existent but the feel and precision of the steering was something you just don’t get in modern cars. In France, at least, the car attracted smiles and waves, which was great – especially when the roads around Le Mans are crowded with much more interesting and expensive cars. Unlike the British public who generally just want you to get out of their way, the French really seemed to appreciate seeing an older car on the road.
Back in the regular car after 1,000 miles in the MG it was hard to believe that 70 could be so quiet and lacking in any sensation of speed. Is that a good thing? I suppose so when all you want to do is get from A to B painlessly. The knowledge that one has loads more tyre grip, braking power and, if the worst comes to the worst, air bags and crash structures is also a plus but the lack of sensation does illustrate why so many drivers fail to concentrate or leave adequate gaps on motorways.
For fun and adventure, however, I can recommend a trip in an old British sports car. Just take plenty of water, a few spares and a toolkit (and RAC roadside recovery!) You’ll develop great mechanical sympathy and rediscover lost driving skills!
I can only agree whole heartedly. A modern power machine just does it of for you with ease. I get by far the most enjoyment in getting a relatively low powered older car on song and making it work for me. What is more, you are a far less likely to lose you licence !
A colleague of mine was an amateur bike racer and did very well at it. He also enjoyed fun runs with a group fellow bikers. I was initially suprised to find he had chopped his 1000cc in for a 350. He explained that he had become a little bored with everything on tap. The 350 made him concentrate and work for a living to stay with the pack on shall we say, a progressive ride when the Police (ironically colleagues in those days but dog does bite dog!) were not watching. He said he found this far more rewarding and fun. After a decent run reving the backside of the thing to keep up, the smile on his face said it all.
These days I am more likely to go out on 4 wheels. I deliberately bought a relatively low powered roadster - Mk1 MX5 - and it is an absolutely great little car for a breeze around the countryside.
A colleague of mine was an amateur bike racer and did very well at it. He also enjoyed fun runs with a group fellow bikers. I was initially suprised to find he had chopped his 1000cc in for a 350. He explained that he had become a little bored with everything on tap. The 350 made him concentrate and work for a living to stay with the pack on shall we say, a progressive ride when the Police (ironically colleagues in those days but dog does bite dog!) were not watching. He said he found this far more rewarding and fun. After a decent run reving the backside of the thing to keep up, the smile on his face said it all.
These days I am more likely to go out on 4 wheels. I deliberately bought a relatively low powered roadster - Mk1 MX5 - and it is an absolutely great little car for a breeze around the countryside.
Edited by Jules2477 on Wednesday 16th July 12:06
Edited by Jules2477 on Wednesday 16th July 14:09
Jules2477 said:
I deliberately bought a reletively low powered roadster - Mk1 MX5 - and it is an absolutely great little car for a breeze around the countryside.
I did the same thing after getting used to AWD cars where you have to be really pushing very hard to make entertainment happen, and its brilliant. Though having said that I'm currently teetering on the edge of selling it for another one with a turbo and double the power 
I had a similar experience in the Caribbean, I had an old Suzuki Samuri,or Sj 413. It had holes in the floor and no way would it be legal in the UK. I hated it at 1st 70mph was a scary experience on the dual carriageway at 1st. I hated it. On the gravel on the way to work, I use drive at 20mph at 1st as I was afraid some one would crash into me and id die. Over time I started to drive it faster and faster. On the wet gravel on bends it was a struggle to keep it on the road at 20 mhp with 4 bald tyres. Then I started to enjoy it. I use like it going sideways. It only had a 1.3 litre engine with approx 60 bhp, but at times ud only be using 1/3 on a 40 mph bend on the gravel and using at least 1/2 a turn of opposite lock. On the tarmac it would still oversteer. After 18 months (the longest I ve owned a car) it was the thing I missed most about the Caribean.
On My return to the Uk, after much thought I purchased a Subaru Impreza P1. It was great, unbelievable. Its the best car iv ever had. The problem is I had much more fun in the little Suzuki with 1/5 the power. If I could drive the P1 anywhere near its limits id be off the road within a week. It feels like it will go from 50-100mph quicker than the Suziki will do 50-60mph. It never slide or loses traction unless maybe I leave of the throttle(suddenly) or put on the brakes going round a roundabout at speed, to be honest Im afraid to induce the slide after an experience with a Subaru rally car, when it snapped after I had the power dialed in and the lock applied. I like the P1 but the prob is I feel that its not a car that I can enjoy driving. To be honest I dont mind the (terrible) fuel consumption. I know engine failure is common (iv had mine replace only driving it 6 months. I think any car that is faster costs more to by run and maintain. I dont like the image of it though.
Iv decided to keep the P1 but not to use it much. After looking around and thinking a lot of what would be fun and reliable and less that 5k. I narrowed my choice down to a Bmw 328,a mk1 mr2,mx5,200sx or maybe an old v6 Carlton or Omega.
In the end i decided on the MR2, mainly because Iv never had a mid engined car before . Its a world away from any modern car. No Abs,traction control or even power steering. Its only got 120 bhp or so, and feels slow next to the P1, but its a lot more fun more of the time. Wet junctions u can feel the the car sliding around. You have to modulate the throttle on roundabouts. It dosn't want to go at double the speed limit all the time.
As a car it comes no where near a modern one for safety,road holding,comfort, and all the rest but the one thing that they cant match is the fun factor most of the time. I drove a new focus down a wet windy B road and it was a lot slower than the P1 and a lot faster than the mr2. The P1 would have easily been the fastest even driven at 60% but thats the problem as its too dangerous to drive it near the limit as the speeds very high. The focus would corner faster than the mr2 and u feel safe. The mr2 to be honest id feel a bit vuerable in case id crash. You got to pay a lot more attention to the water on the road and stuff, but ultimately it the most fun.
On My return to the Uk, after much thought I purchased a Subaru Impreza P1. It was great, unbelievable. Its the best car iv ever had. The problem is I had much more fun in the little Suzuki with 1/5 the power. If I could drive the P1 anywhere near its limits id be off the road within a week. It feels like it will go from 50-100mph quicker than the Suziki will do 50-60mph. It never slide or loses traction unless maybe I leave of the throttle(suddenly) or put on the brakes going round a roundabout at speed, to be honest Im afraid to induce the slide after an experience with a Subaru rally car, when it snapped after I had the power dialed in and the lock applied. I like the P1 but the prob is I feel that its not a car that I can enjoy driving. To be honest I dont mind the (terrible) fuel consumption. I know engine failure is common (iv had mine replace only driving it 6 months. I think any car that is faster costs more to by run and maintain. I dont like the image of it though.
Iv decided to keep the P1 but not to use it much. After looking around and thinking a lot of what would be fun and reliable and less that 5k. I narrowed my choice down to a Bmw 328,a mk1 mr2,mx5,200sx or maybe an old v6 Carlton or Omega.
In the end i decided on the MR2, mainly because Iv never had a mid engined car before . Its a world away from any modern car. No Abs,traction control or even power steering. Its only got 120 bhp or so, and feels slow next to the P1, but its a lot more fun more of the time. Wet junctions u can feel the the car sliding around. You have to modulate the throttle on roundabouts. It dosn't want to go at double the speed limit all the time.
As a car it comes no where near a modern one for safety,road holding,comfort, and all the rest but the one thing that they cant match is the fun factor most of the time. I drove a new focus down a wet windy B road and it was a lot slower than the P1 and a lot faster than the mr2. The P1 would have easily been the fastest even driven at 60% but thats the problem as its too dangerous to drive it near the limit as the speeds very high. The focus would corner faster than the mr2 and u feel safe. The mr2 to be honest id feel a bit vuerable in case id crash. You got to pay a lot more attention to the water on the road and stuff, but ultimately it the most fun.
I have long felt that modern 'sports' cars are starting to miss the point. Massively powerful and heavy. Most make 70mph feel like 30 - which just encourages driving too fast. I want 30mph to feel like 70!
I also owned a midget, but later also had a tvr tuscan v6. The TVR was about 2 inches longer than the midget, but had the benfit of a 3litre motor (albeit one of modest bhp by today's standards). With its hard suspension combined with 185 /80 goodyears tyres, extreamly delicate use of the throttle was required in the wet or alternatively a little more enthusiam would produce easy, enjoyable, low speed oversteer. (Am I allow to say that here)
I also owned a midget, but later also had a tvr tuscan v6. The TVR was about 2 inches longer than the midget, but had the benfit of a 3litre motor (albeit one of modest bhp by today's standards). With its hard suspension combined with 185 /80 goodyears tyres, extreamly delicate use of the throttle was required in the wet or alternatively a little more enthusiam would produce easy, enjoyable, low speed oversteer. (Am I allow to say that here)
Edited by balls-out on Friday 18th July 15:45
[quote=balls-out]I have long felt that modern 'sports' cars are starting to miss the point. Massively powerful and heavy. Most make 70mph feel like 30 - which just encourages driving too fast. I want 30mph to feel like 70!
Right with you here - The other point to this is that you reach legal (or perhaps a little higher) speed very quickly but the actual rush of power lasts all of a few short seconds (a bit like a teenagers first sexual experiences !)the novelty soon wears off and it hurts at the petrol pumps.
Realistically, fast driving within the confines of a public road and the law means that you can rarely use lots of power or the full performance potential of many modern cars. Being able to drive competently at a safe progressive speed or pace, for both car and road is far more rewarding and impressive. Anyone on this thread who has been lucky enough to drive vintage machinery will appreciate this even more - Just staying on the road at 40 or 50 on old crossply tyres can be a challenge in it's self. As for stopping !
Quite a common sight around where I live is a modern powerful car in the hands of someone who really does not have the capability to drive it. They come past at full bore on a straight but as soon they hit the twisties the brake lights are flashing on and off like a beleasher beacon, both before and mid way through the bends. You can probably guess the rest by the fact I frequently maintain a clear view of the 'Blackpool' illuminations without any need of the comfort pedal for several miles ! Down at the Pub they are full of how great the car is and how fast they can (not) drive, yar yar yar, yawn. - If ever there was a case for improved driving tests and compulsary A/D training for performance car owners, I cannot think of a better example.
Speed is relative - 'Any fool can drive fast enough to be dangerous'.
Right with you here - The other point to this is that you reach legal (or perhaps a little higher) speed very quickly but the actual rush of power lasts all of a few short seconds (a bit like a teenagers first sexual experiences !)the novelty soon wears off and it hurts at the petrol pumps.
Realistically, fast driving within the confines of a public road and the law means that you can rarely use lots of power or the full performance potential of many modern cars. Being able to drive competently at a safe progressive speed or pace, for both car and road is far more rewarding and impressive. Anyone on this thread who has been lucky enough to drive vintage machinery will appreciate this even more - Just staying on the road at 40 or 50 on old crossply tyres can be a challenge in it's self. As for stopping !
Quite a common sight around where I live is a modern powerful car in the hands of someone who really does not have the capability to drive it. They come past at full bore on a straight but as soon they hit the twisties the brake lights are flashing on and off like a beleasher beacon, both before and mid way through the bends. You can probably guess the rest by the fact I frequently maintain a clear view of the 'Blackpool' illuminations without any need of the comfort pedal for several miles ! Down at the Pub they are full of how great the car is and how fast they can (not) drive, yar yar yar, yawn. - If ever there was a case for improved driving tests and compulsary A/D training for performance car owners, I cannot think of a better example.
Speed is relative - 'Any fool can drive fast enough to be dangerous'.
Edited by Jules2477 on Sunday 20th July 05:28
i think it would be great if one of the modern manufacturers, took a model of the line up such as the clio,fiesta or c2, put in a normal engine and tyres in it and rear wheel drive, no traction and dsc,esp or what ever else and charge the same or less than the normal 1.4 or 1.6 version. Maybe to take a step away from the 200bhp hot hatch with grippy tyres to a a more nimble and entertaining car to drive.
Good thread.
I drive an Elise and a Scooby STi, one has 316bhp and a AWD system that makes you feel invincible, the other has 120bhp, no power steering no servo brakes and no ABS. The Elise is so much more fun to drive, you can go for a blast in it without endangering your license, 40mph feels quick, the steering is precise with great feedback.
The computer controlled jet fighter a lot of people drive now are certainly making road driving less interesting. Having said that, take the scooby on a track and let it off the leash and it's an amazing piece of kit.
I drive an Elise and a Scooby STi, one has 316bhp and a AWD system that makes you feel invincible, the other has 120bhp, no power steering no servo brakes and no ABS. The Elise is so much more fun to drive, you can go for a blast in it without endangering your license, 40mph feels quick, the steering is precise with great feedback.
The computer controlled jet fighter a lot of people drive now are certainly making road driving less interesting. Having said that, take the scooby on a track and let it off the leash and it's an amazing piece of kit.
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