Discussion
After some advice. Im due to take collection of a Subaru Impreza on Wednesday. I consider myself to be a safe driver, im 24 been driving 8 years with no accidents or convictions etc.
My car history is mainly fairly high powered front wheeled drive cars, and the Subaru will be my first 4WD performance car.
Im not planning on tearing up the local highstreet etc
But if I find myself on a nice empty B road it would be a shame to not use the Impreza to its full potential. I certainly didnt buy it for running to the shops etc.
Im hoping to do one of the ridedrive courses later on in the year when funds allow.
In the meantime Im hoping someone can give me some general tips on driving a car with 4WD. Is there any characteristics or quirks of a 4WD system that I should be aware of? I have heard that Imprezas have a reputation for been quite understeery, and if I find myself in a situation where the car is understeering what is the best technique for countering this?
Any help anyone can give me will appreciated.
Thanks
Chris
My car history is mainly fairly high powered front wheeled drive cars, and the Subaru will be my first 4WD performance car.
Im not planning on tearing up the local highstreet etc
But if I find myself on a nice empty B road it would be a shame to not use the Impreza to its full potential. I certainly didnt buy it for running to the shops etc.Im hoping to do one of the ridedrive courses later on in the year when funds allow.
In the meantime Im hoping someone can give me some general tips on driving a car with 4WD. Is there any characteristics or quirks of a 4WD system that I should be aware of? I have heard that Imprezas have a reputation for been quite understeery, and if I find myself in a situation where the car is understeering what is the best technique for countering this?
Any help anyone can give me will appreciated.
Thanks
Chris
I ran a standard Classic Impreza Turbo for several years and regard it as the best all round car I've owned.
In standard form the car is set up to be very safe. This means mild understeer that increases the harder you push and which can be corrected by lifting off, bringing the nose back in to the apex, i.e. very like a front wheel drive set up. If you have the room and the inclination, (such as on a track or old airfield!) you can throw it more violently into a bend on a trailing throttle or under brakes and this will unsettle the back. You can then play with it a bit.
Alternatively, snow or gravel allow you to power the back round at somewhat slower speeds - you can really feel the centre diff sending power to the back axle.
Compared to front wheel drive, however, the big difference is the power you can deploy from standstill or early in a corner without coming anywhere near breaking traction. This is what makes roundabouts such a hoot!
Having said all of that, if mild understeer in normal driving is not your thing, chassis mods are available ...
Enjoy!
In standard form the car is set up to be very safe. This means mild understeer that increases the harder you push and which can be corrected by lifting off, bringing the nose back in to the apex, i.e. very like a front wheel drive set up. If you have the room and the inclination, (such as on a track or old airfield!) you can throw it more violently into a bend on a trailing throttle or under brakes and this will unsettle the back. You can then play with it a bit.
Alternatively, snow or gravel allow you to power the back round at somewhat slower speeds - you can really feel the centre diff sending power to the back axle.
Compared to front wheel drive, however, the big difference is the power you can deploy from standstill or early in a corner without coming anywhere near breaking traction. This is what makes roundabouts such a hoot!
Having said all of that, if mild understeer in normal driving is not your thing, chassis mods are available ...
Enjoy!
Thanks for that mate. Some good advice and from a fellow Impreza driver too Will be a case of taking things slowly and getting used to the car and how it behaves etc. Im considering going to a track day at some point, the car certainly has the braking for it (6pot AP setup).
Thanks again
Will be a case of taking things slowly and getting used to the car and how it behaves etc. Im considering going to a track day at some point, the car certainly has the braking for it (6pot AP setup).Thanks again
AIUI, it depends what model Impreza you have - some of the limited-editions, and the later STi's, have a driver-adjustable centre-diff (DCCD?) which allows you to alter the front-rear power split.
That would enable you to change the handling-bias of the car, together with some choice geometry changes, so you SHOULD (in theory) be able to dial it to anywhere from safe understeer through pretty-neutral through to rear-biased throttle-steerable.
But before you dive in, get some proper advice on what some suggested set-ups would feel like and behave like.
That would enable you to change the handling-bias of the car, together with some choice geometry changes, so you SHOULD (in theory) be able to dial it to anywhere from safe understeer through pretty-neutral through to rear-biased throttle-steerable.
But before you dive in, get some proper advice on what some suggested set-ups would feel like and behave like.
havoc said:
AIUI, it depends what model Impreza you have - some of the limited-editions, and the later STi's, have a driver-adjustable centre-diff (DCCD?) which allows you to alter the front-rear power split.
That would enable you to change the handling-bias of the car, together with some choice geometry changes, so you SHOULD (in theory) be able to dial it to anywhere from safe understeer through pretty-neutral through to rear-biased throttle-steerable.
But before you dive in, get some proper advice on what some suggested set-ups would feel like and behave like.
The model im getting is a UK300 which doesnt have a DCCD. I have heard that an uprated rear anti-roll bar elimantes the understeer or at least vastly reduces it anyway.That would enable you to change the handling-bias of the car, together with some choice geometry changes, so you SHOULD (in theory) be able to dial it to anywhere from safe understeer through pretty-neutral through to rear-biased throttle-steerable.
But before you dive in, get some proper advice on what some suggested set-ups would feel like and behave like.
Power and braking wise the car will be fine for my needs and current driving abiity. Will see how I like the suspension and handling and make a decision if I feel any alterations/upgrades are needed, plenty of Subaru specialists fairly local to tap for knowledge.
Fair enough - that would be my approach too. Rear ARB...yes, that'll reduce rear roll and hence rear grip, which will alter the balance at the limit...although having driven a v.8 UK STi, grip limits are prodigious and you'll rarely be reaching them in the dry on the road, so I wouldn't worry about reducing the grip
Geometry changes aren't upgrades - it's just tweaking the existing set-up by altering the angles the wheels sit at. Not sure what's possible with the Scooby - on the 'teg you can only change toe front-and-rear, on the S2000 you can change camber, castor (front only) and toe - and it made a HUGE difference to the way that car handled (I reduced the rear camber which reduced rear grip on mine...).
I'd do some research on the owners club to see what is adjustable and then get it checked/changed - I'd recommend it to anyone buying any performance car from a hot-hatch upwards!
Geometry changes aren't upgrades - it's just tweaking the existing set-up by altering the angles the wheels sit at. Not sure what's possible with the Scooby - on the 'teg you can only change toe front-and-rear, on the S2000 you can change camber, castor (front only) and toe - and it made a HUGE difference to the way that car handled (I reduced the rear camber which reduced rear grip on mine...).
I'd do some research on the owners club to see what is adjustable and then get it checked/changed - I'd recommend it to anyone buying any performance car from a hot-hatch upwards!
havoc said:
Fair enough - that would be my approach too. Rear ARB...yes, that'll reduce rear roll and hence rear grip, which will alter the balance at the limit...although having driven a v.8 UK STi, grip limits are prodigious and you'll rarely be reaching them in the dry on the road, so I wouldn't worry about reducing the grip
Geometry changes aren't upgrades - it's just tweaking the existing set-up by altering the angles the wheels sit at. Not sure what's possible with the Scooby - on the 'teg you can only change toe front-and-rear, on the S2000 you can change camber, castor (front only) and toe - and it made a HUGE difference to the way that car handled (I reduced the rear camber which reduced rear grip on mine...).
I'd do some research on the owners club to see what is adjustable and then get it checked/changed - I'd recommend it to anyone buying any performance car from a hot-hatch upwards!
Thanks for all the advice much appreciated. Ive noticed Scoobyclinic do full geometry checks so may combine that with the service im planning on having them carry out.Geometry changes aren't upgrades - it's just tweaking the existing set-up by altering the angles the wheels sit at. Not sure what's possible with the Scooby - on the 'teg you can only change toe front-and-rear, on the S2000 you can change camber, castor (front only) and toe - and it made a HUGE difference to the way that car handled (I reduced the rear camber which reduced rear grip on mine...).
I'd do some research on the owners club to see what is adjustable and then get it checked/changed - I'd recommend it to anyone buying any performance car from a hot-hatch upwards!
Once again thanks to everyone for the advice
I have a Celica GT4 (my first 4WD) and I have noticed it is quite weird, to be honest - on a slippery roundabout it feels like it is understeering - which in a FWD would require a bit of lift off to get the weight transfer and the back to come around - but in this you have to trust it and just nail it - you feel the front initially go light, then feel the power going to the rear wheels and then the back steps out a little followed by buckets of grip (a little touch of countersteer)and you shoot off up the road with a huge smile on your face!
great!
(although my 540 6spd is still more fun for really hanging the back end out!)
great!
(although my 540 6spd is still more fun for really hanging the back end out!)
Another Scooby owner here, 1999 UK Turbowagon.
I love it, all the car I need, for the Public roads.
For all the information, Scoobynet is the place.
Having uprated brakes has addressed what I, and many, find the major failing.
Even though mine has the Subaru four pots on the front.
You have informed your insurance company?.
Then, plus, if the brakes are uprated, has anything else been modified?.
Without looking it up, I can't remember if there were Prodrive options for the UK300.
Although I don't think AP 6 pots were.
Yes, a geometry check and set up to suit you is vital.
Mine has a setting by TSL, done early on, which sorted my problems out.
Partly because some supplying dealers skimp on PDI or don't have the equipment to check settings.
Tyres can be important on these too.
Anyhow, that said, they are , in many ways, too capable.
Lull you into a false sense of security.
So, nevermind all that talk about understeer, go get some AD training.
Me, back at 28 with a Scooby, probably wouldn't be posting this.
I love it, all the car I need, for the Public roads.
For all the information, Scoobynet is the place.
Having uprated brakes has addressed what I, and many, find the major failing.
Even though mine has the Subaru four pots on the front.
You have informed your insurance company?.
Then, plus, if the brakes are uprated, has anything else been modified?.
Without looking it up, I can't remember if there were Prodrive options for the UK300.
Although I don't think AP 6 pots were.
Yes, a geometry check and set up to suit you is vital.
Mine has a setting by TSL, done early on, which sorted my problems out.
Partly because some supplying dealers skimp on PDI or don't have the equipment to check settings.
Tyres can be important on these too.
Anyhow, that said, they are , in many ways, too capable.
Lull you into a false sense of security.
So, nevermind all that talk about understeer, go get some AD training.
Me, back at 28 with a Scooby, probably wouldn't be posting this.
Edited by WhoseGeneration on Wednesday 9th July 01:46
WhoseGeneration said:
Another Scooby owner here, 1999 UK Turbowagon.
I love it, all the car I need, for the Public roads.
For all the information, Scoobynet is the place.
Having uprated brakes has addressed what I, and many, find the major failing.
Even though mine has the Subaru four pots on the front.
You have informed your insurance company?.
Then, plus, if the brakes are uprated, has anything else been modified?.
Without looking it up, I can't remember if there were there Prodrive options for the UK300.
Although I don't think AP 6 pots were.
Yes, a geometry check and set up to suit you is vital.
Mine has a setting by TSL, done early on, which sorted my problems out.
Partly because some supplying dealers skimp on PDI or don't have the equipment to check settings.
Tyres can be important on these too.
Anyhow, that said, they are , in many ways, too capable.
Lull you into a false sense of security.
So, nevermind all that talk about understeer, go get some AD training.
Me, back at 28 with a Scooby, probably wouldn't be posting this.
How do you know what car you've got??? It aint been out the garage for months!!!!!!!I love it, all the car I need, for the Public roads.
For all the information, Scoobynet is the place.
Having uprated brakes has addressed what I, and many, find the major failing.
Even though mine has the Subaru four pots on the front.
You have informed your insurance company?.
Then, plus, if the brakes are uprated, has anything else been modified?.
Without looking it up, I can't remember if there were there Prodrive options for the UK300.
Although I don't think AP 6 pots were.
Yes, a geometry check and set up to suit you is vital.
Mine has a setting by TSL, done early on, which sorted my problems out.
Partly because some supplying dealers skimp on PDI or don't have the equipment to check settings.
Tyres can be important on these too.
Anyhow, that said, they are , in many ways, too capable.
Lull you into a false sense of security.
So, nevermind all that talk about understeer, go get some AD training.
Me, back at 28 with a Scooby, probably wouldn't be posting this.
How ya doin mate
Edited by diff lock on Tuesday 8th July 21:21
diff lock said:
How do you know what car you've got??? It aint been out the garage for months!!!!!!
How ya doin mate
Now, why always in the back of my mind, the thought that you will appear?.How ya doin mate
Edited by diff lock on Tuesday 8th July 21:21
I fink it's a white one, am I right?.
Come on, youse a 4WD expert, help this poor bugger out.
Mind, no ESP or hill descent stuff on his Scooby.
Not sure he wants to go mudplugging either.
Then, a trip out with you would demonstrate what 2 tonnes of 4WD is capable of.
Good sales this month?.
Eta, you're AD qualified, once a Senior Observer, albeit on 'bikes, so get stuck in here.
Edited by WhoseGeneration on Tuesday 8th July 23:19
The Impreza reputation for understeer has come largely from being compared to RWD cars IMO, as you're accustomed to FWD I don't imagine you'll find it to be very understeery at all. If you do find it a problem its easily addressed as others have said.
Probably the thing I've found to be most useful with AWD cars is that the way the power-on traction can pull you out of trouble. If you get it out of shape often the most effective recovery method is to point the front wheels where you want to go and accelerate out of it.
Just be aware that if you wind on too much opposite lock and leave it there too long they can snap back the other way quite suddenly - when the car regains traction it will try to go wherever the front wheels are pointing. Its something of a classic Subaru mistake for people to get it sideways and wind on far too much opposite lock, then panic, lift off the throttle and spin it the other way off the outside of the corner.
Probably the thing I've found to be most useful with AWD cars is that the way the power-on traction can pull you out of trouble. If you get it out of shape often the most effective recovery method is to point the front wheels where you want to go and accelerate out of it.
Just be aware that if you wind on too much opposite lock and leave it there too long they can snap back the other way quite suddenly - when the car regains traction it will try to go wherever the front wheels are pointing. Its something of a classic Subaru mistake for people to get it sideways and wind on far too much opposite lock, then panic, lift off the throttle and spin it the other way off the outside of the corner.
Until you apply some power, you're gaining no benefits from the 4wd system.GravelBen said:
Its something of a classic Subaru mistake for people to get it sideways and wind on far too much opposite lock, then panic, lift off the throttle and spin it the other way off the outside of the corner.
There's a nasty video of some poor sod doing just that at Combe, right into the pit-wall, and I saw the tail-end of an Escort Cossie manoeuvre at Donington exiting the chicane which saw him do the same thing.Lesson = learn how the car will react!
IMHO, for the road you are not likely to feel the advantage of AWD. You will get best results when used in a controlled enviroment, ie track day.
Just get out in the car and use it. But be mindfull that it can bite you back.
As has allready been said, get some training. IAM is a start, then have a go at a couple of track days.
As my old mate WG has said, I have a fair understanding of 'pushing on' in an AWD car.
Buy it and enjoy it. Life's too short
Just get out in the car and use it. But be mindfull that it can bite you back.
As has allready been said, get some training. IAM is a start, then have a go at a couple of track days.
As my old mate WG has said, I have a fair understanding of 'pushing on' in an AWD car.
Buy it and enjoy it. Life's too short
Chris,
Have just spent the day doing a Ride Drive advanced handling course and I would really recommend it - you wouldn't believe how hard an Impreza grips and goes at Bruntingthorpe!
As far as balance goes, I found mine to be very neutral, if not slightly rear-biased: I definitely had more oversteer than understeer. That said, I've had mine for almost six months and it's the first time I've experienced either one - all I've found is grip and then more grip...
If you want any more info on Ride Drive just shout.
Cheers,
Animal
Have just spent the day doing a Ride Drive advanced handling course and I would really recommend it - you wouldn't believe how hard an Impreza grips and goes at Bruntingthorpe!
As far as balance goes, I found mine to be very neutral, if not slightly rear-biased: I definitely had more oversteer than understeer. That said, I've had mine for almost six months and it's the first time I've experienced either one - all I've found is grip and then more grip...
If you want any more info on Ride Drive just shout.
Cheers,
Animal
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