Discussion
I've been to 2 days with Andy now and they're fantastic. I can't recommend them highly enough. The only criticism I've heard is that, on the first day especially, it can be a little difficult to figure out how the exercises relate to how to get around a track quickest. The second day I did introduced other techniques and exercises that concentrated more on exit speed and getting the car pointing at the exit quicker, etc. It's made me *much* more confident with handling the car once it goes sideways rather than just desperately trying to get it straight again as soon as possible.
I agree with the above - have done 1 full day and 3 activity days at North Weald - very useful both in terms of technique and developing feel for what your car does at the limit. Good value too - on a 4-person day we did 6+ hours in the car, drove c.90 miles on the airfield, got plenty of 1-on-1 instruction, and learnt lots from watching/talking to/laughing at the other people on the day.
Only thing I would say is that North Weald doesn't have an ideal surface (it's bumpy and abrasive) - shouldn't be too bad in a lightweight car in terms of tyre wear (presume you'll be in a Westfield as per your profile?) but make sure you up your pressures a bit
Only thing I would say is that North Weald doesn't have an ideal surface (it's bumpy and abrasive) - shouldn't be too bad in a lightweight car in terms of tyre wear (presume you'll be in a Westfield as per your profile?) but make sure you up your pressures a bit
Edited by _Neal_ on Thursday 3rd July 15:09
I would echo the above comments - I did a 2 person day originally 6 years ago, then many 4 person days and practice 'activity days' with Andy at North Weald...it did help that until last Sept I only lived 5 miles from North Weald
Ive had quite a few different 'advanced' driver training sessions over the years and would certainly say that Carlimits is the best value and highly recommended.
Ive had quite a few different 'advanced' driver training sessions over the years and would certainly say that Carlimits is the best value and highly recommended.
Thanks Folks. Looks like it might be worth booking it just 300+ miles away so want to make sure its worth it. As for the surface I am used to that as the track that I got to locally for the sprints that I do is far from the best. As long as there is little to hit that will suit me fine as I want to find the cars and my limits and you cant do that until you over step them.
Video of local sprint
Video of local sprint
Edited by Matt Seabrook on Thursday 3rd July 22:23
I've done the first day and Andy is a very capable driver who is very patient.
I think to be fair that I didn't really understand what the course was about. It's about understanding how your car behaves in an emergency situation at high speed. You will lean how to take a corner at speed in free wheel, but not how to take a corner fast on a hoon.
I would point out the following
Some sort of white board would have been useful to explain what we were doing at each point during the day. You only realise what was been taught upon returning home and it's too late then.
Basic facilities such as chairs and cover would have been useful for the periods when only 1 driver is on the course.
Don't use a good set of tyres. I totally destroyed a newish set of Toyos; having been told I would lose only 2 - 3mm. In fact the treads are all cut are 30 degrees now and the two front tyres have flats and a nail from the track on the rear. It cost £500 for new tyres. I'd recommend hiring Andy's Lotus's as it's cheaper. You have too see the forces involved to believe it. He takes your through the bend at 100 mph and shows how it slides at 105mph. My full lock puts the wheel trim at 25mm from the wishbones, however, my alloys flexed so much during the sessions that they ground against the wishbones.
Flags on the cones with numbers would have improved the final course navigation
I think to be fair that I didn't really understand what the course was about. It's about understanding how your car behaves in an emergency situation at high speed. You will lean how to take a corner at speed in free wheel, but not how to take a corner fast on a hoon.
I would point out the following
Some sort of white board would have been useful to explain what we were doing at each point during the day. You only realise what was been taught upon returning home and it's too late then.
Basic facilities such as chairs and cover would have been useful for the periods when only 1 driver is on the course.
Don't use a good set of tyres. I totally destroyed a newish set of Toyos; having been told I would lose only 2 - 3mm. In fact the treads are all cut are 30 degrees now and the two front tyres have flats and a nail from the track on the rear. It cost £500 for new tyres. I'd recommend hiring Andy's Lotus's as it's cheaper. You have too see the forces involved to believe it. He takes your through the bend at 100 mph and shows how it slides at 105mph. My full lock puts the wheel trim at 25mm from the wishbones, however, my alloys flexed so much during the sessions that they ground against the wishbones.
Flags on the cones with numbers would have improved the final course navigation
John, as mentioned - the second day on will take the "emergency" techniques and also teach you how to exit the corner faster so it becomes relevant for all corners, not just the ones where you screw up and go in too fast.
Matt - if you're that far away, it might be worth having a chat with the office to find a day where there's a 4 person day followed by an Activity day. There was a chap on the last day I did who does this as it's quite a distance. Drives down, does the full day, stops in a Travelodge for peanuts and does the activity day the next day to have a bit more practice then home.
Matt - if you're that far away, it might be worth having a chat with the office to find a day where there's a 4 person day followed by an Activity day. There was a chap on the last day I did who does this as it's quite a distance. Drives down, does the full day, stops in a Travelodge for peanuts and does the activity day the next day to have a bit more practice then home.
Cornwall johnbear said:
Some sort of white board would have been useful to explain what we were doing at each point during the day. You only realise what was been taught upon returning home and it's too late then.
Good idea if it's not wet and windy.Another idea is to get sight of his DVD - "Bending the Rules" - it covers what he does on the day and then some.
Done a number of activity days here over the last few years and hadn't realised how much I'd learnt until recently at Brands...
I let a fast caterfield past me on the start/finish streight, caught up with him (I've got a lot more power) and followed him into Paddock Hill bend. I realised rapidly that the caterfield's breaking point was at least 20' past mine and it's cornering speed was probably 10-15 mph more than my 'comfort' zone.
A combination of luck and trail breaking learned in the safety of the airfield at North Weald meant I managed to skirt round the very outside of the bend (keeping the back-end in check) without ending up in the kitty litter.
Gave myself a big scare BUT more importantly had the tools to hand to not have an off.
Would definately reccoment that kind of tuition to add an extra dimension to your driving.
I let a fast caterfield past me on the start/finish streight, caught up with him (I've got a lot more power) and followed him into Paddock Hill bend. I realised rapidly that the caterfield's breaking point was at least 20' past mine and it's cornering speed was probably 10-15 mph more than my 'comfort' zone.
A combination of luck and trail breaking learned in the safety of the airfield at North Weald meant I managed to skirt round the very outside of the bend (keeping the back-end in check) without ending up in the kitty litter.
Gave myself a big scare BUT more importantly had the tools to hand to not have an off.
Would definately reccoment that kind of tuition to add an extra dimension to your driving.
Matt Seabrook said:
What does the activity day entail?
You parting with a significant sum of money, the rewards from which may be less than obvious. If I'm wrong about this, would somebody care to explain in reasonable detail, with particular reference to how it helps us to be better drivers on the road - as opposed to learning how to throw cars about on the track?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
p1esk said:
Matt Seabrook said:
What does the activity day entail?
You parting with a significant sum of money, the rewards from which may be less than obvious. If I'm wrong about this, would somebody care to explain in reasonable detail, with particular reference to how it helps us to be better drivers on the road - as opposed to learning how to throw cars about on the track?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Secondly, whilst a fixed sum of money is always better spent on dedicated road tuition, I do believe that experience and ability driving on the limit can help with road driving. Firstly, and most obviously, because at some point you may get the car into a skid or a slide and if you're comfortable with that situation then you'll be able to recover - a lot of skid control is very counter-intuitive (such as not backing off during weight transfer induced oversteer for instance). Secondly, learning to manage the grip in a car effectively on the limit will make you a safer driving when driving at a much lower speed. Driving fast around a track is all about going as quickly as possible without the car sliding beyond a certain amount. That's essentially all you're doing when you're racing - driving as far from the limit as possible at all times so you're in effect extending the limit of the car by driving in a certain way (e.g. smoothly and balanced); enabling you to take a bend at 91mph rather than 89mph and therefore getting ahead of your rivals. If you scale that back to road speed, it is therefore possible to go at any speed, for instance a sensible road speed, and be as far from the limit as possible too, which can only be a good thing.
A couple of points from someone who used to scrape up the aftermath...
1) I've yet to see a loss of control RTA caused by over-confidence. Just about every one I went to came about as a result of a sudden lack of confidence in the wrong place. Limit handling training, as Rob says can help cure that particular problem, so that one's cock-ups don't have fatal consequences.
2) Doing such training can lead to a degree of extra carelessness on the road - because you think you know you can get out of any trouble, you tend to be a little more blase about getting into trouble in the first place. I've had a few clients who though that car control skills were the be-all and end-all as they were never going to be going quickly enough on the road for them not to solve any problems. Even when I engineered a few experiences that proved that to be fallacious, they still wouldn't be converted.
On the whole, I think that any training on- or off-road is a good thing provided you get a suitable attitude adjustment as part of the deal.
1) I've yet to see a loss of control RTA caused by over-confidence. Just about every one I went to came about as a result of a sudden lack of confidence in the wrong place. Limit handling training, as Rob says can help cure that particular problem, so that one's cock-ups don't have fatal consequences.
2) Doing such training can lead to a degree of extra carelessness on the road - because you think you know you can get out of any trouble, you tend to be a little more blase about getting into trouble in the first place. I've had a few clients who though that car control skills were the be-all and end-all as they were never going to be going quickly enough on the road for them not to solve any problems. Even when I engineered a few experiences that proved that to be fallacious, they still wouldn't be converted.
On the whole, I think that any training on- or off-road is a good thing provided you get a suitable attitude adjustment as part of the deal.
StressedDave said:
A couple of points from someone who used to scrape up the aftermath...
1) I've yet to see a loss of control RTA caused by over-confidence. Just about every one I went to came about as a result of a sudden lack of confidence in the wrong place. Limit handling training, as Rob says can help cure that particular problem, so that one's cock-ups don't have fatal consequences.
2) Doing such training can lead to a degree of extra carelessness on the road - because you think you know you can get out of any trouble, you tend to be a little more blase about getting into trouble in the first place. I've had a few clients who though that car control skills were the be-all and end-all as they were never going to be going quickly enough on the road for them not to solve any problems. Even when I engineered a few experiences that proved that to be fallacious, they still wouldn't be converted.
On the whole, I think that any training on- or off-road is a good thing provided you get a suitable attitude adjustment as part of the deal.
1) I've yet to see a loss of control RTA caused by over-confidence. Just about every one I went to came about as a result of a sudden lack of confidence in the wrong place. Limit handling training, as Rob says can help cure that particular problem, so that one's cock-ups don't have fatal consequences.
2) Doing such training can lead to a degree of extra carelessness on the road - because you think you know you can get out of any trouble, you tend to be a little more blase about getting into trouble in the first place. I've had a few clients who though that car control skills were the be-all and end-all as they were never going to be going quickly enough on the road for them not to solve any problems. Even when I engineered a few experiences that proved that to be fallacious, they still wouldn't be converted.
On the whole, I think that any training on- or off-road is a good thing provided you get a suitable attitude adjustment as part of the deal.
Your first point is jolly interesting and I can see that being completely true. I've been in a couple of scary situations myself on the road as a passenger and it was all down to the driver wandering into an area of the performance envelope that they'd never been before, realising they were out of their depth and in an "oh &!%@" moment, panicking and nearly crashing the car as a result.
Your second point is oh so true. Most advanced driving methods, including car control training, give you an option: you either drive at the same speed that you were beforehand but with increased safety, faster but with the same safety, or much faster with less safety. Ending up between the second and third cases presumably causes a lot of accidents from otherwise experienced drivers. It's a matter of balancing confidence against ability and being constantly aware of safety as the core principle of driving. Key to that is observation and forward planning, because no matter how good a driver you are, I'm sure that most accidents come about through lack of observation and forward planning - imagining the "what if" scenarios.
p1esk said:
If I'm wrong about this, would somebody care to explain in reasonable detail, with particular reference to how it helps us to be better drivers on the road - as opposed to learning how to throw cars about on the track?
Other than the thread being posted in the "Advanced Driving" forum, where is it stated that it helps us be better drivers on the road? Whether it's in the right forum or not comes down to your interpretation of "Advanced Driving" - is it a term to refer to driving above the level of the average driver (be it on road, track, mountain or wherever), or a specific term referring solely to the IAM/RoADA/Road Craft style road driving?LexSport said:
p1esk said:
If I'm wrong about this, would somebody care to explain in reasonable detail, with particular reference to how it helps us to be better drivers on the road - as opposed to learning how to throw cars about on the track?
Other than the thread being posted in the "Advanced Driving" forum, where is it stated that it helps us be better drivers on the road? Whether it's in the right forum or not comes down to your interpretation of "Advanced Driving" - is it a term to refer to driving above the level of the average driver (be it on road, track, mountain or wherever), or a specific term referring solely to the IAM/RoADA/Road Craft style road driving?Best wishes all,
Dave.
p1esk said:
Yes, beg pardon. I was in too much of a hurry to be a smart-ass again. Carlimits implies limit handling = track based stuff. OK, sorry, as you were.
Dave,Andy covers stuff like steering techniques, how to brake efficiently, how to corner, how tyres work.
There is a lot of hooning around, but that's fun too! The day I went there were three of us who just wanted to see what our cars did near/beyond the limit of grip. The other bloke was a keen trackday bod.
It's enlightening and somewhat reassuring to know your car will take much more than you will give it during normal road driving.
"It's enlightening and somewhat reassuring to know your car will take much more than you will give it during normal road driving."
Precisely, I did a day and a half with John Lyon to find the size of the 'envelope'...never had any interest in joining the HPC or doing track days.
The experience and education has added a lot to my enjoyment - I never, ever, give free lessons to agressive plonkers on twisty roads...honest!
BOF
Precisely, I did a day and a half with John Lyon to find the size of the 'envelope'...never had any interest in joining the HPC or doing track days.
The experience and education has added a lot to my enjoyment - I never, ever, give free lessons to agressive plonkers on twisty roads...honest!
BOF
Vaux said:
It's enlightening and somewhat reassuring to know your car will take much more than you will give it during normal road driving.
Trackdriving it might be but for me it was a good way to learn how to recognise that the car is getting near its limits. This is more important for road driving in my view as it allows you to keep safe within the envelope.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff