Unbelievably bad driving
Discussion
I do not know whether I am writing this in the right section, so excuse me if if this is irrelevant, but I believe that today I witnessed something completely the opposite to advanced driving, so I thought I might as well share it.
I was driving along the front at Blackpool with my dad. Ahead, some traffic lights for a pedestrian crossing (note: NOT a junction, simply a pedestrian crossing) turn to red, as an elderly and frail man is waiting to cross.
Now, this is where things get interesting. An old lady (driving in the opposite direction to myself) in a Ford Ka goes through the red light and past the pedestrian crossing, she obviously suddenly sees that the cars to her right and behind her have stopped. So, she stops. Then she starts to reverse back to the lights, as the old man is starting to cross. After some frantic blasts of the horn and lots of waving from myself, she stops, looks in her mirror, and notices the old man walking across. Had I not used the horn, I think it is very likely she would have continued reversing, and quite possibly severely injured the old man crossing the road – he was clearly frail and I doubt he would have been unable to move out of the way in time.
Firstly, it was alarming to see her simply drive through the red light (bad observation), then to stop – I am certain it is recommended that in most circumstances, even at junctions, one should continue through the junction if one goes past the stop line. It is understandable (if sometimes incorrect), however, if people at junctions stop after the lights. But to do it after a pedestrian crossing? Then to try and turn back time and correct one's error by reversing, without taking into account this was a pedestrian crossing and therefore someone might possibly be walking across the road, simply baffles me.
I am sure you have all seen examples of similarly bad driving, but this was an eye-opener for me (I've only been driving since February – I've seen plenty of bad driving – as a passenger and driver – but nothing like this). Like I said, I don't know if this story is relevant to this part of the forum, but I was considerably surprised to see it all unfold only a few metres away.
I was driving along the front at Blackpool with my dad. Ahead, some traffic lights for a pedestrian crossing (note: NOT a junction, simply a pedestrian crossing) turn to red, as an elderly and frail man is waiting to cross.
Now, this is where things get interesting. An old lady (driving in the opposite direction to myself) in a Ford Ka goes through the red light and past the pedestrian crossing, she obviously suddenly sees that the cars to her right and behind her have stopped. So, she stops. Then she starts to reverse back to the lights, as the old man is starting to cross. After some frantic blasts of the horn and lots of waving from myself, she stops, looks in her mirror, and notices the old man walking across. Had I not used the horn, I think it is very likely she would have continued reversing, and quite possibly severely injured the old man crossing the road – he was clearly frail and I doubt he would have been unable to move out of the way in time.
Firstly, it was alarming to see her simply drive through the red light (bad observation), then to stop – I am certain it is recommended that in most circumstances, even at junctions, one should continue through the junction if one goes past the stop line. It is understandable (if sometimes incorrect), however, if people at junctions stop after the lights. But to do it after a pedestrian crossing? Then to try and turn back time and correct one's error by reversing, without taking into account this was a pedestrian crossing and therefore someone might possibly be walking across the road, simply baffles me.
I am sure you have all seen examples of similarly bad driving, but this was an eye-opener for me (I've only been driving since February – I've seen plenty of bad driving – as a passenger and driver – but nothing like this). Like I said, I don't know if this story is relevant to this part of the forum, but I was considerably surprised to see it all unfold only a few metres away.
I think this was an example of advanced driving - by you that is, keeping your wits about you and preventing the lady from reversing into the gentleman. Well done. I certainly agree with your assessment of the lady's driving.
If you have been driving since February, now is an ideal time to take further training to become a better driver ..... Have you considered signing up with a local IAM or Rospa Group?
If you have been driving since February, now is an ideal time to take further training to become a better driver ..... Have you considered signing up with a local IAM or Rospa Group?
I am certain it is recommended that in most circumstances, even at junctions, one should continue through the junction if one goes past the stop line. It is understandable (if sometimes incorrect), however, if people at junctions stop after the lights. But to do it after a pedestrian crossing? Then to try and turn back time and correct one's error by reversing, without taking into account this was a pedestrian crossing and therefore someone might possibly be walking across the road, simply baffles me.
Anyway you deserve all the credit for preventing this turning from mishap to nasty accident. (And thankfully I no longer have to go to Bournemouth on a regular basis.)
- **************************************************************************
Anyway you deserve all the credit for preventing this turning from mishap to nasty accident. (And thankfully I no longer have to go to Bournemouth on a regular basis.)
Edited by Jules2477 on Thursday 3rd July 00:43
PeterA said:
I do not know whether I am writing this in the right section, so excuse me if if this is irrelevant, but I believe that today I witnessed something completely the opposite to advanced driving, so I thought I might as well share it.
I was driving along the front at Blackpool with my dad. Ahead, some traffic lights for a pedestrian crossing (note: NOT a junction, simply a pedestrian crossing) turn to red, as an elderly and frail man is waiting to cross.
Now, this is where things get interesting. An old lady (driving in the opposite direction to myself) in a Ford Ka goes through the red light and past the pedestrian crossing, she obviously suddenly sees that the cars to her right and behind her have stopped. So, she stops. Then she starts to reverse back to the lights, as the old man is starting to cross. After some frantic blasts of the horn and lots of waving from myself, she stops, looks in her mirror, and notices the old man walking across. Had I not used the horn, I think it is very likely she would have continued reversing, and quite possibly severely injured the old man crossing the road – he was clearly frail and I doubt he would have been unable to move out of the way in time.
Firstly, it was alarming to see her simply drive through the red light (bad observation), then to stop – I am certain it is recommended that in most circumstances, even at junctions, one should continue through the junction if one goes past the stop line. It is understandable (if sometimes incorrect), however, if people at junctions stop after the lights. But to do it after a pedestrian crossing? Then to try and turn back time and correct one's error by reversing, without taking into account this was a pedestrian crossing and therefore someone might possibly be walking across the road, simply baffles me.
I am sure you have all seen examples of similarly bad driving, but this was an eye-opener for me (I've only been driving since February – I've seen plenty of bad driving – as a passenger and driver – but nothing like this). Like I said, I don't know if this story is relevant to this part of the forum, but I was considerably surprised to see it all unfold only a few metres away.
I suspect you are youngish.I was driving along the front at Blackpool with my dad. Ahead, some traffic lights for a pedestrian crossing (note: NOT a junction, simply a pedestrian crossing) turn to red, as an elderly and frail man is waiting to cross.
Now, this is where things get interesting. An old lady (driving in the opposite direction to myself) in a Ford Ka goes through the red light and past the pedestrian crossing, she obviously suddenly sees that the cars to her right and behind her have stopped. So, she stops. Then she starts to reverse back to the lights, as the old man is starting to cross. After some frantic blasts of the horn and lots of waving from myself, she stops, looks in her mirror, and notices the old man walking across. Had I not used the horn, I think it is very likely she would have continued reversing, and quite possibly severely injured the old man crossing the road – he was clearly frail and I doubt he would have been unable to move out of the way in time.
Firstly, it was alarming to see her simply drive through the red light (bad observation), then to stop – I am certain it is recommended that in most circumstances, even at junctions, one should continue through the junction if one goes past the stop line. It is understandable (if sometimes incorrect), however, if people at junctions stop after the lights. But to do it after a pedestrian crossing? Then to try and turn back time and correct one's error by reversing, without taking into account this was a pedestrian crossing and therefore someone might possibly be walking across the road, simply baffles me.
I am sure you have all seen examples of similarly bad driving, but this was an eye-opener for me (I've only been driving since February – I've seen plenty of bad driving – as a passenger and driver – but nothing like this). Like I said, I don't know if this story is relevant to this part of the forum, but I was considerably surprised to see it all unfold only a few metres away.
Well, you've passed the Advanced English test, with this post.
Rare if you are young.
So now, go for an Advanced Driving equivalent.
WhoseGeneration said:
So now, go for an Advanced Driving equivalent.
TALK to your local IAM before deciding if their approach is the right one for you.I did with my local bunch and found them to be very dogmatic* and prescriptive, which I didn't feel was appropriate. By contrast, a mate did the bike IAM and found them to be far more concerned with roadcraft than with 'lessons' and dogma.
So I would guess it varies from club to club, and probably instructor to instructor. So go in with a critical mindset, ask some sensible questions, and then decide if it's right for you or not...
- "Feed the wheel in ALL circumstances" and "Speed limits" are the two that stick in my mind. Neither of which I've followed since passing my test, with no ill-effects.
havoc said:
WhoseGeneration said:
So now, go for an Advanced Driving equivalent.
TALK to your local IAM before deciding if their approach is the right one for you.I did with my local bunch and found them to be very dogmatic* and prescriptive, which I didn't feel was appropriate. By contrast, a mate did the bike IAM and found them to be far more concerned with roadcraft than with 'lessons' and dogma.
So I would guess it varies from club to club, and probably instructor to instructor. So go in with a critical mindset, ask some sensible questions, and then decide if it's right for you or not...
- "Feed the wheel in ALL circumstances" and "Speed limits" are the two that stick in my mind. Neither of which I've followed since passing my test, with no ill-effects.
_Neal_ said:
I agree with the above, but I think you'll be hard-pushed to find an IAM group that isn't at least a little dogmatic about speed limits - you are working towards a test which you won't pass if you ignore them
They all have to be. Can you imagine if Britains premier road-safety charity advocated anything else other than adhering to the law? Charity status gone in a heartbeat. Officers arrested. Very bad. Also you can view the ability to both (1) KNOW what the limit is and (2) have the finesse to drive up to it, where safe, but not exceed it as being a useful skill worth practicing in it's own right.You would not believe the number of Associates I have had who, when they first arrive, have NO IDEA what the speed limit is when asked and even when they DO know it find themselves breaking it totally unintentionally because they have NO finesse or ability to judge the speed of the car. Luckily these things can be learned - with NO requirement to stare at the speedo...
_Neal_ said:
I agree with the above, but I think you'll be hard-pushed to find an IAM group that isn't at least a little dogmatic about speed limits - you are working towards a test which you won't pass if you ignore them
Fair point. And I understand that they have to be that way given the organisation they are, 'officially'.Nevertheless, I'm still very skeptical that, on an open road, the posted limit has that much to do with safety. Legality yes, safety very rarely...
...so it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that they adopt the same approach as the bike IAM apparently do...you teach for real-world, and then trust the rider to keep to the limit on his/her test...
Thanks for all the comments so far everyone. I am 18 (for reference and male pride, I passed first time – I took my time learning; my dad's retired so he taught me to 'drive', then got the instructor at the end to pass the test) and I intend on joining an IAM group one day. There are a few not so far from where I live. But, unfortunately (with regards to driving), my long summer holiday seems to be quite busy. There's a group in the city of where I'll be studying. However, at university I won't have a car.
I suppose the most practical and useful thing to do for now would be to buy the IAM's “How to be a better driver” and get some practice whenever I can.
Basically, I want to take my driving to the next proverbial level (sorry, that sounds very cheesy); I've done Pass Plus, but I think that what is covered in Pass Plus should be assessed in the actual test, so I want to do something that will genuinely help my driving, thus Advanced Driving.
Regards,
Peter
I suppose the most practical and useful thing to do for now would be to buy the IAM's “How to be a better driver” and get some practice whenever I can.
Basically, I want to take my driving to the next proverbial level (sorry, that sounds very cheesy); I've done Pass Plus, but I think that what is covered in Pass Plus should be assessed in the actual test, so I want to do something that will genuinely help my driving, thus Advanced Driving.
Regards,
Peter
havoc said:
...so it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that they adopt the same approach as the bike IAM apparently do...you teach for real-world, and then trust the rider to keep to the limit on his/her test...
Maybe not, but as mentioned above, as IAM observers we get associates who are unaware of what the actual limit is, and, even if they are aware of it, don't adhere to it as a matter of habit. The IAM test lasts long enough (and the examiners try and make associates drive in a relaxed and "natural" manner so as to properly assess them) that in my view if an associate can't do an hour or longer observed drive without breaking the speed limit, they are unlikely to drive differently on their test. So I would say there needs to be both awareness of the limits, and some habit formed, during the IAM observed drives. Hence the "strict" approach.
FWIW hopefully "notice what the speed limit is and stick to it" is a very small part of what an associate gets out of a drive with a decent IAM Observer
_Neal_ said:
...as IAM observers we get associates who are unaware of what the actual limit is, and, even if they are aware of it, don't adhere to it as a matter of habit.
FWIW hopefully "notice what the speed limit is and stick to it" is a very small part of what an associate gets out of a drive with a decent IAM Observer
First para - I'm (I hope) always aware of the limit. However, in NSL's I DON'T adhere to it as a matter of habit - I look at the conditions and drive to those, whether that means it's 40mph or 90mph. I don't see that makes me a worse driver than someone who DOES stick to the limit - on the contrary, I am continually evaluating the road ahead and driving to what I can see, so IMHO any breach of the limit becomes practically (if not legally) irrelvant.FWIW hopefully "notice what the speed limit is and stick to it" is a very small part of what an associate gets out of a drive with a decent IAM Observer
Second para - I'd hope so too, but in my discussion with this chap (he did have a full beard, admittedly!
) he did seem to prattle on about 'safety' and 'limits' and 'control' the whole time. Very little of what he said seemed 'advanced' to me at all...Don,
"You would not believe the number of Associates I have had who, when they first arrive, have NO IDEA what the speed limit is when asked and even when they DO know it find themselves breaking it totally unintentionally because they have NO finesse or ability to judge the speed of the car. Luckily these things can be learned - with NO requirement to stare at the speedo..."
You just described my drive this morning...35ish in 30s...45ish in 40s...65ish in 70s...so I am phantom braking AND phantom accelerating from the left seat.
But, there is improvement in some other areas...so we keep going.
One of the problems I read on this and other Forums (Fora?) is that people have formed an opinion about an IAM Group from meeting ONE Observer...or from going to ONE duff meeting, and we have them?
In my Group, we have around 30 active Observers, some of whom I would not like to spend two weeks holiday with..a few others I look up to and learn from...I suspect that we are not unique in having a very varied mix of Observers.
'Customers' have included local ambulance drivers, the Saxo lads, the 'My late husband did all the driving'...'I had a crash and want to improve'..last year a Policeman who was going for his Class 1 Test...the usual people who have the wish, for whatever reason, to improve...a Surgeon in our local Hospital is now on our Committee.
Excuse the rant...our image could be improved?
But, in the absence of something better.............
BOF.
"You would not believe the number of Associates I have had who, when they first arrive, have NO IDEA what the speed limit is when asked and even when they DO know it find themselves breaking it totally unintentionally because they have NO finesse or ability to judge the speed of the car. Luckily these things can be learned - with NO requirement to stare at the speedo..."
You just described my drive this morning...35ish in 30s...45ish in 40s...65ish in 70s...so I am phantom braking AND phantom accelerating from the left seat.
But, there is improvement in some other areas...so we keep going.
One of the problems I read on this and other Forums (Fora?) is that people have formed an opinion about an IAM Group from meeting ONE Observer...or from going to ONE duff meeting, and we have them?
In my Group, we have around 30 active Observers, some of whom I would not like to spend two weeks holiday with..a few others I look up to and learn from...I suspect that we are not unique in having a very varied mix of Observers.
'Customers' have included local ambulance drivers, the Saxo lads, the 'My late husband did all the driving'...'I had a crash and want to improve'..last year a Policeman who was going for his Class 1 Test...the usual people who have the wish, for whatever reason, to improve...a Surgeon in our local Hospital is now on our Committee.
Excuse the rant...our image could be improved?
But, in the absence of something better.............
BOF.
Don / BOF - just read both posts. Very fair points. Maybe the local group is better than that one chap.
But...out of interest...how many of your colleagues would be strong advocates or insist on 'feeding the wheel' and '10-to-2'? As I do neither automatically but never consider my control on the car compromised...yet I got the impression from this chap that I'd be chucked out with my technique:-
- "quarter-to-three" hold on the wheel;
- fixed-hands for low-input steering (<1/4 turn);
- 'slightly modified' feed for slower-speed greater inputs;
- arm-over-arm for <10mph manoeuvres.
Also - what are your opinions on that approach?
Thanks (and apologies to the OP for the gradual hi-jack!).
But...out of interest...how many of your colleagues would be strong advocates or insist on 'feeding the wheel' and '10-to-2'? As I do neither automatically but never consider my control on the car compromised...yet I got the impression from this chap that I'd be chucked out with my technique:-
- "quarter-to-three" hold on the wheel;
- fixed-hands for low-input steering (<1/4 turn);
- 'slightly modified' feed for slower-speed greater inputs;
- arm-over-arm for <10mph manoeuvres.
Also - what are your opinions on that approach?
Thanks (and apologies to the OP for the gradual hi-jack!).
havoc,
To emphasise the point I was trying to make about the IAM...we are AMATUERS...we do get training, and we are tested to a National standard... the Trafpol who did my Senior Observer test did me me no favours...but has since helped me.
Regarding holding the wheel at 10 to 2...or quarter to three..or fixed input steering...who really gives a s
t if you are in control of the car? None of the people I have been with!
But...we do teach Roadcraft...it is kind of our Bible...and is the basis of the experience and training, of the best Police drivers anywhere on earth so far.
Best we can do...do not get too concerned about being 'brainwashed' by the IAM...think of it as 'O' levels and go on further if you feel inclined?
BOF.
To emphasise the point I was trying to make about the IAM...we are AMATUERS...we do get training, and we are tested to a National standard... the Trafpol who did my Senior Observer test did me me no favours...but has since helped me.
Regarding holding the wheel at 10 to 2...or quarter to three..or fixed input steering...who really gives a s
t if you are in control of the car? None of the people I have been with!But...we do teach Roadcraft...it is kind of our Bible...and is the basis of the experience and training, of the best Police drivers anywhere on earth so far.
Best we can do...do not get too concerned about being 'brainwashed' by the IAM...think of it as 'O' levels and go on further if you feel inclined?
BOF.
Edited by BOF on Thursday 3rd July 20:22
I'm in a similar position to you, although I passed my test (first time with only one minor fault ) nearly two years ago now so I'm coming up to the end of my probation. I think learning wise your next best step might be to concentrate on advanced car control rather than the roadcraft side of things, try taking a rally or race school course or a few track days for example. I myself have completed the pass plus course and also had several track hours in various cars and an advanced skidpan course, which is probably more experience than most young guys my age (19) have. My next goals are to increase my license categories, I already have full car and bike entitlement on my license but ideally I'd like to be able to tow a full size trailer and drive anything up to 7.5 ton and with more than 7 seats.
) nearly two years ago now so I'm coming up to the end of my probation. I think learning wise your next best step might be to concentrate on advanced car control rather than the roadcraft side of things, try taking a rally or race school course or a few track days for example. I myself have completed the pass plus course and also had several track hours in various cars and an advanced skidpan course, which is probably more experience than most young guys my age (19) have. My next goals are to increase my license categories, I already have full car and bike entitlement on my license but ideally I'd like to be able to tow a full size trailer and drive anything up to 7.5 ton and with more than 7 seats.I'm considering putting a driving course (like going on a skidpan) on my Christmas wishlist! About a month ago I did a driving experience at Croft. I learnt a lot from that day, and I believe I am a better driver for it. Sorry, I can't mention Croft without saying that it was one of the most enjoyable days of my life! The cars and the track were superb, but what made it even better was the people who worked there - all very encouraging, enthusiastic and friendly.
I am also now guilty of going substantially off-topic, so I may as well continue. Can anyone suggest a good place (preferably in the North West) for doing an advanced driving course, such as going on a skidpan etc. that will help me improve my driving?
I've read other posts similar to this and I've seen the various arguments, so I'll say it now that I don't intend on reaching the limits of the car on the public road. However, I think it is beneficial to have the skills there. For example, should I encounter oil on a corner, or any other situation that would cause me to lose grip, I think it would be highly useful, and a potential lifesaver, to be able to react instinctively in a split-second to gain full control of the car. I know that prevention is better than having to deal with the problems in the first place, but it's good to have a safeguard.
Regards,
Peter
Note: I apologise for my long posts – I like writing.
I am also now guilty of going substantially off-topic, so I may as well continue. Can anyone suggest a good place (preferably in the North West) for doing an advanced driving course, such as going on a skidpan etc. that will help me improve my driving?
I've read other posts similar to this and I've seen the various arguments, so I'll say it now that I don't intend on reaching the limits of the car on the public road. However, I think it is beneficial to have the skills there. For example, should I encounter oil on a corner, or any other situation that would cause me to lose grip, I think it would be highly useful, and a potential lifesaver, to be able to react instinctively in a split-second to gain full control of the car. I know that prevention is better than having to deal with the problems in the first place, but it's good to have a safeguard.
Regards,
Peter
Note: I apologise for my long posts – I like writing.
havoc said:
...so it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that they adopt the same approach as the bike IAM apparently do...you teach for real-world, and then trust the rider to keep to the limit on his/her test...
I think most people find it very difficult to comply strictly with speed limits and that it requires practice. And that the ability to switch on and off compliance with speed limits requires even more practice. This being the case, if someone wants to pass the IAM test they have to practice compliance with speed limits.Am I dogmatic about this as an IAM Observer? I have never had an Associate question this need to practice speed limit compliance, and they do try to comply when with me. Similarly, when demoing as an IAM Observer I also attempt absolute compliance. I always try to discuss how the Associates deal with speed limits when not being observed, and make sure that they understand what I consider to be the issues. It is perhaps an unfortunate aspect of the process that I do not get to see them driving other than when they are trying to comply, and that there is very rarely an opportunity to practice single carriageway overtaking of anything much faster than a bycicle: but I accept this as the price of operating under the aegis of a road safety charity.
I wonder how the bike groups really deal with these issues? - but I don't think a public forum would be the right place for bike members to explain!
PeterA said:
For example, should I encounter oil on a corner, or any other situation that would cause me to lose grip, I think it would be highly useful, and a potential lifesaver, to be able to react instinctively in a split-second to gain full control of the car. I know that prevention is better than having to deal with the problems in the first place ....
You have said it yourself - prevention is better! Why not do an advanced driving course first, and then reward yourself with some limit handling or track time. Best of all, combine the two in something like the Cadence Master Driver course, or something similar from RideDrive. Sorry, I have no idea if the geography works for you on these organisations.waremark said:
I think most people find it very difficult to comply strictly with speed limits and that it requires practice. And that the ability to switch on and off compliance with speed limits requires even more practice. This being the case, if someone wants to pass the IAM test they have to practice compliance with speed limits.
Am I dogmatic about this as an IAM Observer? I have never had an Associate question this need to practice speed limit compliance, and they do try to comply when with me. Similarly, when demoing as an IAM Observer I also attempt absolute compliance. I always try to discuss how the Associates deal with speed limits when not being observed, and make sure that they understand what I consider to be the issues.
I’ve got to respond to this, as it’s in Advanced Driving.Am I dogmatic about this as an IAM Observer? I have never had an Associate question this need to practice speed limit compliance, and they do try to comply when with me. Similarly, when demoing as an IAM Observer I also attempt absolute compliance. I always try to discuss how the Associates deal with speed limits when not being observed, and make sure that they understand what I consider to be the issues.
Is there any benefit in complying strictly with speed limits?
Specifically, is there a proven link between strict compliance (even with a 30 versus approximate compliance (e.g. the usual 28-32), and the incidence/severity of accidents? Or even of near-misses, which IMHO are events we should learn from as much as accidents.
Because if not, then legality aside, what is the point?!? Does paying more attention to your speedo make you a better driver?!?
My other point would be one of cause-and-effect – you say “I have never had an Associate question this need to practice speed limit compliance”, but is that because people know in advance that that is what the IAM requires and either already agree with your philosophy or are keeping quiet in order to get the pass? One of the reasons I did not join the IAM was this dogmatic approach to both steering and speed-limits, which to me was completely irrelevant (and indeed possibly harmful) to advanced driving, which I believe should concentrate on roadcraft – on hazard/situational awareness, on planning and on positioning, with the speed ‘limit’ for any given stretch of being a constantly variable value, down to the individuals judgement as advised by circumstances and observation (including road signs and what they might indicate).
I want to become a better driver. I don’t see that everything the IAM does supports that goal…
havoc said:
One of the reasons I did not join the IAM was this dogmatic approach to both steering and speed-limits
A pity to throw out the baby with the bath water. And look on the bright side of speed limit compliance:It demonstrates good observation of signs, and a high level of awareness and control
It enables you to be relaxed about enforcement activities
There are plenty of roads available to challenge your skill and judgement, on which the safe speed is lower than the speed limit
It is often very challenging to make progress within the speed limit particularly on multi-lane roads
If the IAM was known to condone exceeding speed limits, what do you think Brake would say about IAM and how would the influence of IAM be affected?
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