Controlling snap oversteer

[Bosh 964]

I have read that to control a sudden snap oversteer, you should immediately back off, dip the clutch and steer into the skid

How does this apply in a mid-engined rear drive car with a flappy paddle gearbox, where you cannot dip the clutch and because of this, backing off too much could make things worse?

[BertBert]

There is the letting go of the wheel approach which has been discussed on here before.

To get more of a handle on the question, are you referring to oversteer generally or specifically "snap oversteer"?

Bert

[Animal]

Depending on the car wouldn't lifting off create engine braking which would lob you the other way?

Not sure about other paddle 'boxes, but I thought that with Ferrari's F1 system you pulled both paddles at once to select neutral. You can then pull the 'up' paddle to re-engage drive, although I don't know if the software will automatically pick first gear or the most appropriaet gear to match road speed.

[GreenV8S]

What caused the sudden snap oversteer that you're thinking about? Understanding the cause is usually the best way to understand how to control it.

[Bosh 964]

Travelling 300 degrees round a roundabout in 2nd gear. I think the cause was a combination of mildly moist tarmac and a little bit too much throttle. The back end just snapped away with very little time to react, certainly not enough to pull both paddles to put into neutral whilst trying to correct it

The gearbox did however select first, allowing for a quick brisk getaway avoiding too much embarassment

[GreenV8S]

The two things you need to do are steer into the slide and go to a neutral throttle. If you're only accelerating gently then coming off the throttle doesn't have much scope to save you and there's a good chance of making things worse if you go too far and get into engine braking. On the other hand if you were doing a burn-out then it's a waste of time trying to catch it unless you can get the wheels slowed down. The approach I've adopted for catching oversteer is to throw every single possible ounce of correction at it as fast as humanly possible, but stop applying the correction if I can feel the car responding. So an unexpected brief twitch might result in no more than a few inches of opposite lock as it comes back immediately, whereas a big moment would have me straight onto the lock stops and feathering the throttle trying to feel for maximum grip. Remember that if you do catch it the car is then going to rebound harder and further than the original slide, unless you take the correction off as it starts to straighten. So it's just as important to remove the correction promptly as it is to apply it, and you need to start thinking about this as soon as the back end has stopped swinging out, don't wait until it's straightened up.

[waremark]

You should go and practice with Don Palmer or Andy Walsh.

Does the 355 have a stability program? If so, you need to know how to work with that.

I am surprised that noone has questioned the 'declutch' recommendation. Are there any limit handling experts here who recommend declutching?

[thiscocks]

Definitley wouldn't reccomend dipping the clutch in an overteering mid engined car, as sometimes coming right off the throttle can make it worse. In a front engined/rwd its more benificial to back right out of it, but de-clutching on the move is never a good idea.

Edited by thiscocks on Tuesday 1st July 15:24

[falcemob]

I find applying lots of lock, any lock, saying "Oh fk" loudly and at the same time closing your eyes tightly works about the same as trying to fight it.

[norasport]

Oversteer around a roundabout presents the problem of space to recover without hitting anything. The crucial element in skid control is "outcome" i.e.what is my best outcome option in this situation?, the advantage of a roundabout is that a subsequent spin, with brakes applied, is very unlikely to cause you to hit anything as the car will turn around its centre of gravity (virtually continuing around the roundabout)and stop very quickly.

The high risk strategy is applying corrective lock and waiting for the back to grip, and then with the front wheels pointed to the curb and generally to the outside of the roundabout, hope that I straightened up the wheel in time before driving straight off the road! This second and vital action is much the most difficult part of oversteer correction.

The feeling of the car dipping and then gripping, just before it straightens, gives you just a fraction of a second's notice, but in patchy conditions it all happens very fast and very violently.

IMHO, if this happened to me, I would apply corrective lock and brake hard and take the easy option, letting the ABS help, and I have had more practice in skids than most people. Better personal pride dented than the car!

[GravelBen]

thiscocks said:

Definitley wouldn't reccomend dipping the clutch in an overteering mid engined car, as sometimes coming right off the throttle can make it worse. In a front engined/rwd its more benificial to back right out of it, but de-clutching on the move is never a good idea.

Dipping the clutch is quite different to coming right off the throttle though as it doesn't apply engine braking to the drien wheels like a trailing/closed throttle will.

I'd tend to agree that with mid-engined you want to keep some throttle on to keep weight over the rear if you're wanting to catch it though.

[WhoseGeneration]

Bosh 964 said:

I have read that to control a sudden snap oversteer, you should immediately back off, dip the clutch and steer into the skid

How does this apply in a mid-engined rear drive car with a flappy paddle gearbox, where you cannot dip the clutch and because of this, backing off too much could make things worse?

Your car ok with regard to suspension geometry?.
You checking tyre pressures and condition every week?.

[Jules2477]

Bosh 964 said:

I have read that to control a sudden snap oversteer, you should immediately back off, dip the clutch and steer into the skid

How does this apply in a mid-engined rear drive car with a flappy paddle gearbox, where you cannot dip the clutch and because of this, backing off too much could make things worse?

De-clutching is the modern simplistic thinking for basic training in road skills as it is the easiest thing to remember because front, rear or even 4 wheel drive require different methods. All the advice given in this thread is valid but can not beat getting your self down to a practical session in skid control - It will answer all your questions and great fun too.

[RobM77]

Bosh 964 said:

I have read that to control a sudden snap oversteer, you should immediately back off, dip the clutch and steer into the skid

How does this apply in a mid-engined rear drive car with a flappy paddle gearbox, where you cannot dip the clutch and because of this, backing off too much could make things worse?

I'm not sure where that advice came from?! The only reason you'd normally dip the clutch would be prevent the engine stalling during a spin. Dipping the cluch in a corner would destabilise the car completely! Yes, it removes engine braking from the driven wheels, but the weight transfer from removing all drive so immediately and quickly would easily overshadow that.

To catch an oversteer slide:

Firstly, steering - just apply opposite lock. To be honest, I don't really think of lock as "positive" or "opposite" - there's a whole spectrum in between depending on the state of balance that the car is in. What normally happens during oversteer is that as the balance of the car shifts towards oversteer you start unwinding lock anyway to maintain your course. The point where opposite lock starts is therefore seemless and not really noticeable. A car that is cornering always has some sort of state of balance, whether that be to understeer, neutral or oversteer and the steering angle is just related to that.

Now for the power: Simplistically (yes, pedants, I said simplistically!!!), there are two causes of oversteer: weight transfer and power application. Both play a part in oversteer at all speeds, but generally the faster you go the more weight transfer plays a part and the less power does. For power dominated oversteer think RWD on a skidpan, for weight transfer think motorway slip road.

For rear wheel drive: If the oversteer has been caused by power, the best thing to do is remove that cause by backing off; don't back off too much though because you'll transfer the weight off the rear wheels and make things worse. If the oversteer has been caused by weight transfer, then you need to accelerate to catch the slide, but again if you do it too much you can run into the other cause of oversteer, power; so again, be gentle. The basic advice is to remove the cause. If you don't know what the cause was and you're taken by surprise, you can't go far wrong to just freeze your feet. I've never driven a road car that won't come back just through opposite lock alone, providing your reactions are good enough to catch it early. I know this because I used to drive a car where there was a second's delay with the throttle position, so I had to catch all slides with just the steering and it worked every time.

For front wheel drive it's easy because you've only got one cause of oversteer - weight transfer. So to catch it you always accelerate.

HTH

[Bombjack]

Did the snap oversteer happen as you unwound the wheel to exit the roundabout? If so it's possible you'd had understeer and were coming back through the slip angle of the front wheels, giving a sudden increase in front grip.

[Bosh 964]

No it was a constant radius roundabout on constant lock, constant throttle, it must have been a damp patch or spillage

[RobM77]

Bosh 964 said:

No it was a constant radius roundabout on constant lock, constant throttle, it must have been a damp patch or spillage

If you have a choice of what to make instinctive, it'd be freezing your feet and applying opposite lock calmly and accurately (preferably with fixed input steering to minimise the chances of over-correction. That will save 90% of slides in a rear drive car. If the car's front drive, then do the same thing but accelerate (if safe to do so with other traffic of course). Yes, there are better ways to save a slide, but in the context of someone not used to controlling a car on the limit I stand by the advice of leaving your feet alone (provided you weren't accelerating and decelerating at the time, in which case just remove the cause and put the throttle back to where it should be for a corner!!!).

I must admit in 10 years of spirited driving I've never had unwanted oversteer on the road. I don't mean to insult your driving ability, but are you sure you weren't off the throttle at the time, or maybe even accelerating? Cornering should be done with a steady throttle to keep the car balanced and with smooth steering inputs (I get some flak on here for saying that from the IAM lot, but it's the truth).

[10 Pence Short]

RobM77 said:

For front wheel drive it's easy because you've only got one cause of oversteer - weight transfer. So to catch it you always accelerate.

HTH

This was the solution when my Integra went in a big way. I'm still not sure what caused it to go (I'd driven the car thousands of miles, tracked it, done various skid pan days etc etc etc, so I'm not particularly inexperienced). All I could deduce, aside from excess speed being the obvious, was a combination of a quickly changing camber on a heavily crowned road with different tyres on the back and front and cold rear tyres in comparison to the fronts (the 3 miles before the skid had been following and overtaking very slow traffic).

The speed it yawed was such that within a few metres the angle was 90 degrees to the direction of travel. All I could do was steer into it, into second and full power. It was one of the occasions I wish the LSD wasn't fitted when the front wheels began to bog down as the speed dropped.

Sadly before it began swinging back into line a biker came around the bend in front of me and we collided. As we collided the yaw and forward motion along the road was stopped and the front wheels spun, gained traction and launched the car onto the nearside verge. Ironically, the Police looked at those skid marks and were suspicious as to why I was on the throttle at that point. They went as far as to question whether I was 'powersliding' (a FWD car) on purpose around a blind right hand bend.

[RobM77]

10 Pence Short said:

RobM77 said:

For front wheel drive it's easy because you've only got one cause of oversteer - weight transfer. So to catch it you always accelerate.

HTH

This was the solution when my Integra went in a big way. I'm still not sure what caused it to go (I'd driven the car thousands of miles, tracked it, done various skid pan days etc etc etc, so I'm not particularly inexperienced). All I could deduce, aside from excess speed being the obvious, was a combination of a quickly changing camber on a heavily crowned road with different tyres on the back and front and cold rear tyres in comparison to the fronts (the 3 miles before the skid had been following and overtaking very slow traffic).

The speed it yawed was such that within a few metres the angle was 90 degrees to the direction of travel. All I could do was steer into it, into second and full power. It was one of the occasions I wish the LSD wasn't fitted when the front wheels began to bog down as the speed dropped.

Sadly before it began swinging back into line a biker came around the bend in front of me and we collided. As we collided the yaw and forward motion along the road was stopped and the front wheels spun, gained traction and launched the car onto the nearside verge. Ironically, the Police looked at those skid marks and were suspicious as to why I was on the throttle at that point. They went as far as to question whether I was 'powersliding' (a FWD car) on purpose around a blind right hand bend.

Well, that last comment explains the reasons I post here and also the reason I get attacked so much on this forum! The traditional "police" method of driving, good as it is in the main, follows some very rigorous rules, and not all of them are a) correct or b) relevant to today's cars.

Was the biker ok?

[10 Pence Short]

Sadly he was very badly injured. There's a long thread about it in P&P, as I was eventually convicted of dangerous driving (witness evidence of my driving before the accident suggested I'd been driving like a loon- which I wasn't, but it's a long story...) and spent 3 months in prison.

The poor motorcyclist suffered from life lasting injuries.