Loosing traction due to accelerating in the wet...
Discussion
Hi folks,
Many years ago when I had my first Chimaera I unfortunately wrapped it backwards around a signpost. It was entirely my fault due to inexperience of RWD and that much power plus I put my foot down on a wet road. Apart from not being so stupid, how could I have prevented the spin?
Basically it was a straight road and as I accelerated I seemed to loose traction at the front and back at the same time, with the car going into a slide to the left. I must have panicked and came off the gas as the back started to spin out to the left. Can't remember what I did next but I must have over-corrected and/or hit the brakes hard, as it then went into a full spin the other way (I think - can't really remember) and the back hit the signpost on the side of the road. Bugger.
What would have been the best way of dealing with this?
Cheers for the advice,
J
Many years ago when I had my first Chimaera I unfortunately wrapped it backwards around a signpost. It was entirely my fault due to inexperience of RWD and that much power plus I put my foot down on a wet road. Apart from not being so stupid, how could I have prevented the spin?
Basically it was a straight road and as I accelerated I seemed to loose traction at the front and back at the same time, with the car going into a slide to the left. I must have panicked and came off the gas as the back started to spin out to the left. Can't remember what I did next but I must have over-corrected and/or hit the brakes hard, as it then went into a full spin the other way (I think - can't really remember) and the back hit the signpost on the side of the road. Bugger.
What would have been the best way of dealing with this?
Cheers for the advice,
J
Sell the car?
Seriously though, the best way of dealing with it is not to do it in the first place, not to panic when you do manage to forget rule 1 and do everything gradually, especially reducing engine power.
And all the skid pan practice in the world isn;t going to help you when you've only got 5m width of road to catch it.
Seriously though, the best way of dealing with it is not to do it in the first place, not to panic when you do manage to forget rule 1 and do everything gradually, especially reducing engine power.
And all the skid pan practice in the world isn;t going to help you when you've only got 5m width of road to catch it.
Either the car was not completely straight or one of the rear wheels had better grip (type of tarmac/surface, wear of the tyre, amount of water on the road etc) than the other.
You probably floored the throttle too quickly in a low gear. The big V8 torque was too much for the rear tyres on the wet.
Once the spin is initiated it really depends on how much road you have, how late you realize you are spinning, how fast you are travelling, how quick you are with the inputs. Sometimes there si no chance.
You probably floored the throttle too quickly in a low gear. The big V8 torque was too much for the rear tyres on the wet.
Once the spin is initiated it really depends on how much road you have, how late you realize you are spinning, how fast you are travelling, how quick you are with the inputs. Sometimes there si no chance.
IME, the way you're taught to drive is wrong, especially for high performance or any rwd car. If you're in trouble, the first thing that is drummed into you is to brake - if in doubt, brake. First thing to do before braking is to lift-off the throttle...
Bad.
Sounds like simple inexperience though. If you're used to getting the backend out, it probably would never have happened. I don't drive at all the way I was taught - I cross my hands on the steering wheel, let it self-straighten (by Newton's law of everything wants to go in a straight line, and as per Senna does in a road car. Hey, if it's good enough for him it's good enough for me! The wheel with self-straighten faster than the average person can with their hands), I always feather the throttle when going round corners (even if nowhere near a limit, it's a habit that until a few weeks ago I didn't even realise I had it until a mate pointed it out) and NEVER use the brake pedal unless you're already trying to minimise speed for an unavoidable impact. I've never been caught out with the backend as I'm used to it twitching, especially in the wet and you don't need to be giving it some for that to happen (herein lies the problem for the average driver).
I.e. In a straight line or in a corner my automatic response should be to roughly reduce throttle to about 25% if the backend is not doing what the front says (and then see how it feels) before adjusting again. A throttle is also not an on/off switch.
Next habit to get into is how to avoid fishtailing by counter-steering, and here's the key point; even when it feels like you don't need to. Usual mistake is for people to react to the car, than predict or be ready for what it's going to do. So when the backend comes out, you wait too long before applying counter-steer. Then you have either already lost it, in which case bummer! Or you catch it, but if you wait to long to cancel your counter-steer the rear will bite and will then go the way the steering wheel is pointing - the other way. Sadly you now get a pendulum effect - the back swings round with the energy of the initial slide PLUS extra input of the steering wheel, so that it can swing back faster than when it initially stepped out and taking you past the point of return. You then spin-out the other way instead of the way you thought you were going to...
I.e. counter-steer quickly, but then cancel the counter-steer exactly as quickly.
IMO modern cars with all their TC systems, suspension dampening for comfort etc, just don't have the feedback you need, so you can't wait for the feel, you need to predict the behaviour. Unless you get used to the car getting the rear out so that you can feel it start to happen early, but that's with practice of course.
btw, not saying that's how it should be done, but it's how it has worked for me without incident for the past 15 years... (er, touch wood!)
Bad.
Sounds like simple inexperience though. If you're used to getting the backend out, it probably would never have happened. I don't drive at all the way I was taught - I cross my hands on the steering wheel, let it self-straighten (by Newton's law of everything wants to go in a straight line, and as per Senna does in a road car. Hey, if it's good enough for him it's good enough for me! The wheel with self-straighten faster than the average person can with their hands), I always feather the throttle when going round corners (even if nowhere near a limit, it's a habit that until a few weeks ago I didn't even realise I had it until a mate pointed it out) and NEVER use the brake pedal unless you're already trying to minimise speed for an unavoidable impact. I've never been caught out with the backend as I'm used to it twitching, especially in the wet and you don't need to be giving it some for that to happen (herein lies the problem for the average driver).
I.e. In a straight line or in a corner my automatic response should be to roughly reduce throttle to about 25% if the backend is not doing what the front says (and then see how it feels) before adjusting again. A throttle is also not an on/off switch.
Next habit to get into is how to avoid fishtailing by counter-steering, and here's the key point; even when it feels like you don't need to. Usual mistake is for people to react to the car, than predict or be ready for what it's going to do. So when the backend comes out, you wait too long before applying counter-steer. Then you have either already lost it, in which case bummer! Or you catch it, but if you wait to long to cancel your counter-steer the rear will bite and will then go the way the steering wheel is pointing - the other way. Sadly you now get a pendulum effect - the back swings round with the energy of the initial slide PLUS extra input of the steering wheel, so that it can swing back faster than when it initially stepped out and taking you past the point of return. You then spin-out the other way instead of the way you thought you were going to...
I.e. counter-steer quickly, but then cancel the counter-steer exactly as quickly.
IMO modern cars with all their TC systems, suspension dampening for comfort etc, just don't have the feedback you need, so you can't wait for the feel, you need to predict the behaviour. Unless you get used to the car getting the rear out so that you can feel it start to happen early, but that's with practice of course.
btw, not saying that's how it should be done, but it's how it has worked for me without incident for the past 15 years... (er, touch wood!)
Edited by mattikake on Thursday 29th May 11:44
I totally agree with the above post, but sometimes there is no chance...
Look at what happened to Raikkonen at Montecarlo this past weekend.
You can see he's trying to do what mattikake was saying. I am sure if we had access to the telemetry you could see him never touching the brakes but lifting off the throttle.
But even for a F1 WC sometimes it is too much.. See how he countersteers several times but can never get the car straight enough to apply the brakes?
So it really depends on how sideways you get the car before you start correcting and how much traction the road offers (dry? wet? greasy? oil? etc)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhPfgmDejcU&fea...
Look at what happened to Raikkonen at Montecarlo this past weekend.
You can see he's trying to do what mattikake was saying. I am sure if we had access to the telemetry you could see him never touching the brakes but lifting off the throttle.
But even for a F1 WC sometimes it is too much.. See how he countersteers several times but can never get the car straight enough to apply the brakes?
So it really depends on how sideways you get the car before you start correcting and how much traction the road offers (dry? wet? greasy? oil? etc)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhPfgmDejcU&fea...
911teo said:
You can see he's trying to do what mattikake was saying. I am sure if we had access to the telemetry you could see him never touching the brakes but lifting off the throttle.
But even for a F1 WC sometimes it is too much.. See how he countersteers several times but can never get the car straight enough to apply the brakes?
He was succeeding. If not he'd have either hit the wall or spun it completely (and then probably hit the wall). KR was minimising damage all the way and probably knocked off a lot of speed still before he finally hit Sutil.But even for a F1 WC sometimes it is too much.. See how he countersteers several times but can never get the car straight enough to apply the brakes?
It's also even more difficult to control that under braking as the rear naturally wants to overtake the front, so the pendulum effect is even more extreme.
Of course there are always situations where you have no say in the matter. Hit diesel, oil or mud at any cornering speed and you will be a passenger. But it never helps being a monkey in the first place...
mattikake said:
911teo said:
You can see he's trying to do what mattikake was saying. I am sure if we had access to the telemetry you could see him never touching the brakes but lifting off the throttle.
But even for a F1 WC sometimes it is too much.. See how he countersteers several times but can never get the car straight enough to apply the brakes?
He was succeeding. If not he'd have either hit the wall or spun it completely (and then probably hit the wall). KR was minimising damage all the way and probably knocked off a lot of speed still before he finally hit Sutil.But even for a F1 WC sometimes it is too much.. See how he countersteers several times but can never get the car straight enough to apply the brakes?
It's also even more difficult to control that under braking as the rear naturally wants to overtake the front, so the pendulum effect is even more extreme.
Of course there are always situations where you have no say in the matter. Hit diesel, oil or mud at any cornering speed and you will be a passenger. But it never helps being a monkey in the first place...
He is under braking thus not appliable entirely to the question asked by the original poster but Kimi's immediate goal is not to hit Sutil. He failed. Maybe if he had anoter 30-40 meters he would have gotten the car straight enough to slow it down properly (you can see he nearly has it straight).
Like said already the best way to avoid it is to not get into it in the first place, a lot of people still talk about skidpan and frame training etc as "skid control" it is not, it is skid avoidance, being able to recognise when it is likely to happen is the biggest saver, the next is knowing what to do (or not) to avoid the panic reaction apparently experienced by the OP, I dont think it has been mentioned yet that the probable reason it went sideways is the limited slip diff, these tend to have a preference for going a particular way when they wheelspin, my old 2wd sapphire used to prefer a tail out to the left attitude when it went 
Gary
Gary
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