Discussion
ar 145 said:
Hi guys,
I drive an Alfa 145 and am about 6'2 tall.
I would love to heel/toe in it when pressing on country roads. However the steering wheel does not go high enough too allow me to do so.
Are there any modifications I can do to the pedals to allow this?
Cheers in advance
Get another car that'll allow you to do it? I've never seen the need to do it on the road or racing my car. I drive an Alfa 145 and am about 6'2 tall.
I would love to heel/toe in it when pressing on country roads. However the steering wheel does not go high enough too allow me to do so.
Are there any modifications I can do to the pedals to allow this?
Cheers in advance
Can we please have a mythbusting Heel and Toe thread stuck to the top of this forum. That and a mythbusting System of Car Control thread too.
We should probably make a video showing exactly how to do it as well.
I am not referring to this thread in particular but some of the absolute rot/utter misinformation that gets posted on these subjects really is shocking. People seem to confuse double-declutch with H&T and Systematic driving...
Another thread that would be useful would be a Wiki with links to all the Advanced Driving organisations - preferably with a READ THESE THREADS FIRST sign...
We should probably make a video showing exactly how to do it as well.
I am not referring to this thread in particular but some of the absolute rot/utter misinformation that gets posted on these subjects really is shocking. People seem to confuse double-declutch with H&T and Systematic driving...
Another thread that would be useful would be a Wiki with links to all the Advanced Driving organisations - preferably with a READ THESE THREADS FIRST sign...
BOF said:
If you don't get it right on public roads Pal, and end up in A+E...ask the Surgeon...might be able to adjust legs to car?
Do you really think people are that stupid? I taught myself to heel and toe, double declutch and left foot brake on the public highway and yet I avoided any trips to A&E as a consequence. That's probably because - as astonishing as this might seem - I haven't practised these things in heavy fast-moving traffic on the M25 in a snow-storm.
Of course if you have access to a private test track to practise these techniques then you should do just that, but most of us haven't. With a sense of proportion and a modocum of risk assessment and appreciation it's quite possible to develop these skills on the public highway without putting at risk your legs or a third party's.
rt106 said:
BOF said:
If you don't get it right on public roads Pal, and end up in A+E...ask the Surgeon...might be able to adjust legs to car?
Do you really think people are that stupid? I taught myself to heel and toe, double declutch and left foot brake on the public highway and yet I avoided any trips to A&E as a consequence. That's probably because - as astonishing as this might seem - I haven't practised these things in heavy fast-moving traffic on the M25 in a snow-storm. Of course if you have access to a private test track to practise these techniques then you should do just that, but most of us haven't. With a sense of proportion and a modocum of risk assessment and appreciation it's quite possible to develop these skills on the public highway without putting at risk your legs or a third party's.
I have no access to a private track...I have been on Millbrook Test Circuit to try to educate myself...I can heel and toe, double declutch, am tested annually by IAM and triennually by RoSPA Class 1 Police drivers.
My concern is, while I appreciate that you have mastered...
""a sense of proportion and a modocum of risk assessment and appreciation it's quite possible to develop these skills on the public highway without putting at risk your legs or a third party's.""
I would suggest that a 'modicum' of risk assesment is less than ideal?
BOF.
Hi there BOF,
How come you're so against learning heal-and-toe on the road? Obviously, there are many daft places to practice. However a quiet, straight and largely hazard-free road could be found to practice at modest speed, surely?
Having said that, I would strongly encourage anyone to learn to single- and/or double-declutch first. That way, they will have mastered matching revs to engine speed before task loading with braking too.
Cheers
How come you're so against learning heal-and-toe on the road? Obviously, there are many daft places to practice. However a quiet, straight and largely hazard-free road could be found to practice at modest speed, surely?
Having said that, I would strongly encourage anyone to learn to single- and/or double-declutch first. That way, they will have mastered matching revs to engine speed before task loading with braking too.
Cheers
SVS,
I am not against heel and toe in any way.
I am all for the enjoyment of feeling the flow of a car, under control,under my arse.
I do worry though, that, when I read many posts here and on other Forums, about getting bigger wheels, or louder exhaust systems, or other modifications, that there are better things to do and learn about safe driving than, what in my experience, means trying to go faster.
Smoother, OK...car sympathy better, OK...running before walking, not sure...probably an age thing...
BOF
I am not against heel and toe in any way.
I am all for the enjoyment of feeling the flow of a car, under control,under my arse.
I do worry though, that, when I read many posts here and on other Forums, about getting bigger wheels, or louder exhaust systems, or other modifications, that there are better things to do and learn about safe driving than, what in my experience, means trying to go faster.
Smoother, OK...car sympathy better, OK...running before walking, not sure...probably an age thing...
BOF
There is no magic about heel and toe but wondering what technique you are using that requires you to move the steering wheel higher. As long as the pedals are reasonable close together you should not have a problem using your heel to pivot your foot to blip or sustain the throttle whilst braking. If the pedals are a problem, various 'Go faster shops' sell alloy padal covers and these can usually be tweaked to get a better alignment for H & T,, If all else fails stick to standard techniques. H & T will give marginally faster lap times on a circuit and really useful for spirited driving using a crash box in a vintage machine but allowing reasonable safety margins for a quick blast round the countryside in modern car, it really isn't warranted.
Edited by Jules2477 on Tuesday 20th May 14:43
Edited by Jules2477 on Tuesday 20th May 14:45
"" H & T will give marginally faster lap times on a circuit and really useful for spirited driving using a crash box in a vintage machine but allowing reasonable safety margins for a quick blast round the countryside in modern car, it really isn't warranted.""
Should be added to any sticky on the subject, as suggested by Don above?
BOF.
Should be added to any sticky on the subject, as suggested by Don above?
BOF.
BOF said:
"" H & T will give marginally faster lap times on a circuit and really useful for spirited driving using a crash box in a vintage machine but allowing reasonable safety margins for a quick blast round the countryside in modern car, it really isn't warranted.""
Should be added to any sticky on the subject, as suggested by Don above?
BOF.
I'm not sure there is a concensus view on H&T but I am sure that, if there is one, it's not reflected by the above statement.Should be added to any sticky on the subject, as suggested by Don above?
BOF.
On circuit, braking and changing gear separately wastes chunks of time and precludes trail braking. Changing gear while braking, without attempting to rev-match, stresses the transmission and increases the risk of locking the driven wheels unacceptably. Therefore, I would suggest that H&T is a prerequisite skill to progressive circuit driving.
I would suggest that H&T has no more relevance to vintage cars than new, and wonder whether there's some underlying confusion with DDC?
Many advanced road drivers find H&T an enjoyable skill that can be applied to road driving, without diminishing safety margins. The advanced driver may warrant its use on the basis that it's enjoyable, while still being able to demonstrate the separation of braking and gear-changing on request.
If we're looking for a sound bite, I'd propose:
"H&T is a prerequisite skill for progressive circuit driving in cars equipped with manual gearboxes. Many advanced road drivers find it an enjoyable skill that can be safely applied to road driving. Many others prefer to avoid any form of brake / gear overlap."
BOF said:
No Pal, I do NOT think that people are that stupid, excuse me if my post contained a modicum of humour, mixed with regret that we we lose around 3500 lives a year...ten today if it was an average day...especially young drivers included....read the stats?
Thanks Pal, I have read the stats. Furthermore I read Police accident reports as part of my job... not many, perhaps a couple of hundred a year, but a reasonable sample never-the-less... can't say I've ever noticed 'practising heel-and-toe' as a causation factor...BOF said:
I would suggest that a 'modicum' of risk assesment is less than ideal?
Excuse me if my post contained a modicum of humour.I suppose I can see where you're coming from. Someone on here goes on about how great left-foot braking is, then some totally moronic Whizzbo Willy reads that and then heads off to the local one-way system to have a try in his slammed 'n' tw@tted one-litre Corsa with its bass-box booming and wipes out nine old ladies and their ridiculously small dogs who are minding their own business outside the local bingo hall. Headlines read: "Driving forum causes Doctors Orders bingo slaughter" or something. However, I don't for a millisecond think that's likely.
I don't have access to accident reports, just contacts with the Trafpols who help our Group and a few lectures from accident investigators.
"Thanks Pal, I have read the stats. Furthermore I read Police accident reports as part of my job... not many, perhaps a couple of hundred a year, but a reasonable sample never-the-less... can't say I've ever noticed 'practising heel-and-toe' as a causation factor"
I doubt if, after a fatality, or a KSI, practising heel and toe would be likely to be established as a causation factor?
BOF.
"Thanks Pal, I have read the stats. Furthermore I read Police accident reports as part of my job... not many, perhaps a couple of hundred a year, but a reasonable sample never-the-less... can't say I've ever noticed 'practising heel-and-toe' as a causation factor"
I doubt if, after a fatality, or a KSI, practising heel and toe would be likely to be established as a causation factor?
BOF.
BOF, are you seriously suggesting enthusiastic drivers practicing heel and toe on the public road is a "hidden cause" of accidents? Is it in some way inherently dangerous?
I think this forum should be encouraging enthusiastic drivers to try new techniques (safely) rather than jumping on them as "trying to run before they can walk" - it's part of the learning process.
Did you really wait until you had a raft of IAM/Rospa qualifications or a private test track before attempting to heel and toe?
I think SVS's post above illustrates a very sensible approach to starting to learn the technique.
Neal
I think this forum should be encouraging enthusiastic drivers to try new techniques (safely) rather than jumping on them as "trying to run before they can walk" - it's part of the learning process.
Did you really wait until you had a raft of IAM/Rospa qualifications or a private test track before attempting to heel and toe?
I think SVS's post above illustrates a very sensible approach to starting to learn the technique.
Neal
I taught myself heel & toe on public roads and I have to say that I feel more in control of the car when I heel & toe, and enjoy driving more when I use this technique. I don't think I drive any faster now than before, but when I make proress, the car should be better behaved.
I'm 22 and have a Seat Ibiza 2.0 Cupra, so you'd probably include me in the group of people who shouldn't be trying it? I'm aware that there are many other skills that will help me become a more complete driver, happens that this is one that can be self-taught fairly simply if you choose the approprite time and road to do it on.
I'm 22 and have a Seat Ibiza 2.0 Cupra, so you'd probably include me in the group of people who shouldn't be trying it? I'm aware that there are many other skills that will help me become a more complete driver, happens that this is one that can be self-taught fairly simply if you choose the approprite time and road to do it on.
I taught myself to heel and toe and double declutch at low speed in new subdivision with no houses built so no cars.
I then slowly increased the speed until I was confident in it.
It costs around $350AU to get on a track at a minimum. I do not have that kind of money to throw around.
I fail to see how improving car control can be related to the road toll. Seems a very, very, very long bow to draw.
That being said I rarely use h and t in everyday driving. It is just another skill which can be used where suited.
But I guess because I'm young I shouldn't be bothering to learn any form of car control?
I then slowly increased the speed until I was confident in it.
It costs around $350AU to get on a track at a minimum. I do not have that kind of money to throw around.
I fail to see how improving car control can be related to the road toll. Seems a very, very, very long bow to draw.
That being said I rarely use h and t in everyday driving. It is just another skill which can be used where suited.
But I guess because I'm young I shouldn't be bothering to learn any form of car control?
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