Overtaking and people pulling out

[The Black Flash]

Scenario - at the back of a line of 4 cars, comming out of a 30 into an NSL.
Nobody looks likely to overtake, so pull out, check, road is clear, and accelerate.
Get past the first two, then the second in line looks like he's about to pull out - no indicating, not sure if he's seen me.

Now what I did was back off as I didn't fancy being sideswiped - and sure enough, the chap pulled out in front of me. As it happened, there was all the room in the world, so I just followed him through.

So no harm, no foul - everyone's safe. But it wasn't really neat, and a bit more fraught than I'd like. It occured to me that I may have encouraged him to pull out by backing off, and if I'd carried on he'd have probably stayed in place. Hard to tell if he'd seen me or not.

Not sure if I could have done any different, apart from not overtaking so soon, but I'd be interested in any comments.

[Firkin Dogbolter]

Likely he never saw you so by being cautious I think you did the right thing. Really hard to tell though even if in the given situation. Impossible to read other drivers minds and often they do the unexpected.

[p1esk]

It sounds like you did OK to me. You were generally wary, looking out for the right sort of problems, you encountered one but you were prepared for it and dealt with it. It bolsters the little stockpile of experience and refines the ability to judge things, which is good.

Just one little point though. It this case you had all the time in the world and were happy to follow through, but do be wary of following through if there is any sign you could run short of time and space. One danger is that the guy that pulled out in front of you to do his own overtake might then sit on the bumper of the one he's just passed, rather than continuing to accelerate and open up a gap. This could leave you without the return gap you might have been intending to use, in which case you may also want to overtake the one you've just followed through - if there is still time and space available. One can get trapped in such a situation, but I expect you're already aware of this problem, though others may not be, which is why I mention it. HTH.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[7db]

Horn or headlamp flash prior to the abandonment? Might as well see if you can influence his actions prior to accommodating them. As long as doing the first doesn't prevent you from doing the second.

If you do go down that route, you'll likely see a swerve in as he notices you for the first time. A cheery wave is well in order to make everyone feel better about life should you go down this route.

[waremark]

I am sure you did the right thing to hold back - better any number of missed overtakes than one side-swipe.

I would have the headlights on for several seconds at the start of the multiple overtake. There is a good chance it will catch attention in door mirrors. Be very clear when you commit to the overtake of each vehicle, not being committed until you know there is somewhere to go to, and having back-out options until the moment of commitment. If there is road width available, be well to the offside, covering the horn so that if a car being overtaken starts to move out there will still be time for him to react to a warning.

[garethj]

waremark said:

I would have the headlights on for several seconds at the start of the multiple overtake. There is a good chance it will catch attention in door mirrors.

I wouldn't rely on "a good chance" for an overtake There's also the chance that when you accelerate and the nose of the car goes up, it'll be mistaken for you flashing your headlights to let the other guy out?

Sounds like the original poster was spot-on, I know that backing off can be ambiguous and can seem like you're letting someone out but there's not really another choice, is there?

[The Black Flash]

p1esk said:

One danger is that the guy that pulled out in front of you to do his own overtake might then sit on the bumper of the one he's just passed, rather than continuing to accelerate and open up a gap. This could leave you without the return gap you might have been intending to use, in which case you may also want to overtake the one you've just followed through - if there is still time and space available. One can get trapped in such a situation, but I expect you're already aware of this problem, though others may not be, which is why I mention it. HTH.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Yeah, I think that's what's nagging at the back of my mind - getting stuck on the offside. Actually I half-pulled in to the space he'd just vacated once he'd pulled out, checked it was still clear, dropped a cog and took the last car once I was sure it was safe. In fact I could have passed him as well, but leptons were getting a bit high by then

Flashing/horn - I would have done, but to be honest it was the last thing on my mind - and as someone else has said, flashing can easily be misconstrued as an "after you".

Dunno why it's playing on my mind so much really - I'm happy with the way I dealt with it, it just felt a bad situation to get into in the first place. But short of waiting just in case someone up ahead pulls out, (in which case you could be there an age), I can't think of how to avoid it.

Cheers for the comments!

[waremark]

I stick to the suggestion of using headlights. I said that I would have them on for several seconds, which I think controls the danger of the signal being mistaken for flashing to yield priority. I think you should always consider a signal before an overtake, and for me it would be routine either on a narrow road or where a vehicle to be overtaken might be considering overtaking him/herself. With a multiple overtake or a heavy, I would be more likely to use lights than horn.

An interesting question is what made it look as though the second car in line was thinking of overtaking? At that stage a further warning (or a first one if none had previously been given, in this case probably with the horn) might have caused him to wait (which might have been clear from a subtle move to the left).

I certainly agree with not overtaking a car which showed signs that it was about to move to the right.

[vonhosen]

The Black Flash said:

Scenario - at the back of a line of 4 cars, comming out of a 30 into an NSL.
Nobody looks likely to overtake, so pull out, check, road is clear, and accelerate.
Get past the first two, then the second in line looks like he's about to pull out - no indicating, not sure if he's seen me.

Now what I did was back off as I didn't fancy being sideswiped - and sure enough, the chap pulled out in front of me. As it happened, there was all the room in the world, so I just followed him through.

So no harm, no foul - everyone's safe. But it wasn't really neat, and a bit more fraught than I'd like. It occured to me that I may have encouraged him to pull out by backing off, and if I'd carried on he'd have probably stayed in place. Hard to tell if he'd seen me or not.

Not sure if I could have done any different, apart from not overtaking so soon, but I'd be interested in any comments.

If you come from a 30 into NSL & you are at the back of the queue, you've got to realistically anticipate that those in front of you may accelerate & possibly overtake others for themselves. They may also do that at a slightly different time to you because some may go in anticipation of the limit whilst others may wait until they are firmly in it. Changes of limit are a time for caution with overtakes particularly where you are going to have to commit to multiple overtakes.

Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 29th April 18:30

[BOF]

"If you come from a 30 into NSL & you are at the back of the queue, you've got to realistically anticipate that those in front of you may accelerate & possibly overtake others for themselves."

And vice versa...

I tell my punters "mirror check at every change of speed limit" (they should be checking every 8 seconds of course) as we are likely to be the only ones driving at the indicated limit.

Going FROM NSL to 30 can be just as hazardous if you have a brainless numpty behind.

BOF

[BertBert]

this must be a place to use the horn surely?
Bert

[Distant]

I agree with the others who said it sounds like you handled the situation perfectly. I had a similar situation the other day and I went for the horn warning option as I had started the overtake from some way back and my closing speed was quite high by the time I was passing the first vehicle. I'm not sure a warning flash would have been interpreted correctly and I was quite close to the offending vehicle so it might not have even been seen. The horn, coupled with a cover/light brush of the brakes until I was sure the warning had been appropriately received worked for me.

The driver of the car I'd just persuaded not to drive into the side of me and kill us both was obviously grateful to me for saving his life as he followed me through sounding his horn, flashing his lights and waving his appreciation...


In short, the very fact you're thinking back and trying to decide what you did correctly or otherwise is excellent. Keep up the self analytical approach and you won't go far wrong IMO

[ironictwist]

The Black Flash said:

Scenario - at the back of a line of 4 cars, comming out of a 30 into an NSL.
Nobody looks likely to overtake, so pull out, check, road is clear, and accelerate.
Get past the first two, then the second in line looks like he's about to pull out - no indicating, not sure if he's seen me.

Now what I did was back off as I didn't fancy being sideswiped - and sure enough, the chap pulled out in front of me. As it happened, there was all the room in the world, so I just followed him through.

So no harm, no foul - everyone's safe. But it wasn't really neat, and a bit more fraught than I'd like. It occured to me that I may have encouraged him to pull out by backing off, and if I'd carried on he'd have probably stayed in place. Hard to tell if he'd seen me or not.

Not sure if I could have done any different, apart from not overtaking so soon, but I'd be interested in any comments.

I had this exact scenario today actually come to think of it. Fortunately the driver saw my headlights in his wing mirror so got his skates on and passed said numpty going a tad slow at the time.

Went perfect actually. I had a feeling he would want to move out as i accelerated up & lo and behold, he did.

[WilliBetz]

waremark said:

I stick to the suggestion of using headlights. I said that I would have them on for several seconds, which I think controls the danger of the signal being mistaken for flashing to yield priority. I think you should always consider a signal before an overtake, and for me it would be routine either on a narrow road or where a vehicle to be overtaken might be considering overtaking him/herself. With a multiple overtake or a heavy, I would be more likely to use lights than horn.

An interesting question is what made it look as though the second car in line was thinking of overtaking? At that stage a further warning (or a first one if none had previously been given, in this case probably with the horn) might have caused him to wait (which might have been clear from a subtle move to the left).

I certainly agree with not overtaking a car which showed signs that it was about to move to the right.

Fortunately, Waremark, we were trained that use of the horn or headlights doesn't afford priority and that, if used, you need to look for evidence of reaction.

Often, the first sign that a car ahead is looking to change lane will come from its position relative to the centre line. If you are expecting a signal or shoulder check, you may be disappointed...

In the case of a multi-car overtake, a classic problem is that the second (or subsequent) car in the line pulls out to look and then doesn't fancy it, so pulls back in. If you are intending to pass this car as part of a multi-car overtake, don't assume that they have decided against overtaking and are therefore safe to pass. They have clearly indicated that they are looking to overtake. If they see a following driver who has decided to overtake, even when they had looked and decided not to, there's a significant chance that they will reconsider and pull out again...

[waremark]

WilliBetz said:

Fortunately, Waremark, we were trained that use of the horn or headlights doesn't afford priority

I should have said so explicitly, thanks.

[The Black Flash]

waremark said:

An interesting question is what made it look as though the second car in line was thinking of overtaking? At that stage a further warning (or a first one if none had previously been given, in this case probably with the horn) might have caused him to wait (which might have been clear from a subtle move to the left).

He started to veer out a little as I was just behind his back bumper. I think I backed off as soon as I saw him start to move over - so he may have seen me, may not. If I'd have carried on and flashed, I doubt he'd have seen the lights as I'd have probably been approaching his blind spot.

[The Black Flash]

vonhosen said:

If you come from a 30 into NSL & you are at the back of the queue, you've got to realistically anticipate that those in front of you may accelerate & possibly overtake others for themselves. They may also do that at a slightly different time to you because some may go in anticipation of the limit whilst others may wait until they are firmly in it. Changes of limit are a time for caution with overtakes particularly where you are going to have to commit to multiple overtakes.

Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 29th April 18:30

True of course. In this instance, we were definately into the NSL before I started the overtake (and I'm not just saying that - there's a couple of driveways a few hundred yards into the NSL and I like to be sure there's nothing going to come out of them before I get on the wrong side of the road.)
The question is, how long do you give them to work out if they are going to go or not?

[WilliBetz]

The Black Flash said:

The question is, how long do you give them to work out if they are going to go or not?

The answer, perhaps unhelpfully, is that you give them as long as they need. You can't overtake until you're 100% certain that it's safe to do so.

[rasputin]

It is rather a pain in the bottom when you are doing 30mph and the car(s) behind wait till just before the NSL sign to overtake and carry on at 45mph where you would do 60.
I have, perhaps, maybe, once or twice, possibly, left the premature overtakers behind (on "wrong" side of road) by applying a liberal amount of size 12 boot in second gear just as I pass the NSL sign.
Maybe.

But I'll deny everything

[PeteG]

I put another one in the bag of experience today - never assume that heavies are happy staying behind one another on a single-carriageway road... I was behind heavy A, there was a decent stop-over gap ahead of him, then heavies B and C - C, at the front, was travelling at the legal maximum 40mph. As we came off a right-hand bend, I took the view with the intention of overtaking A... and saw B pull out from behind C... only to then jump back on the brakes as he saw the oncoming cars... had he been able to go, he'd have been fully offside right into a left-hand bend with no chance of avoiding the mythical oncoming R1...

ETA: I know plenty of car drivers are hopelessly inept at overtaking, but this is the first time I've seen a HGV try an overtake there...

Edited by PeteG on Thursday 1st May 10:28

Edited by PeteG on Thursday 1st May 10:34