Discussion
Why is it that every time I look in the mirror I see a set of knuckles at 12o'clock on the steering wheel, usually frightenly close? I'm no expert on motorsport but aren't F1 steering wheels designed so that the hands can control everything from the quarter to three position. Obviously they have got it wrong & should consider perhaps a lever pointing up that can be held with the right hand whilst fitting a rest for the elbow of course. This must surely make them drive better & even allow them to call home during the race!! After all 30 odd million licence holders can't be wrong.
http://www.ridedrive.co.uk/tipoffs10.htm might be of interest.
I use their "combination method" myself mainly - one of the best things I ever learnt about driving from reading.
I use their "combination method" myself mainly - one of the best things I ever learnt about driving from reading.
ridedrive[quote]
Apart from being procedural, the likely mechanical reason for the Pull-Push steering style may well have been the fact that in those bygone days of driving, cars were so heavy and had such huge steering wheels. To steer a car effectively the Pull-Push method would have no doubt become a necessity, as there was no power assisted steering and so a high level of arm leverage would be required. That being the case there could be a reasoned argument to say the style is indeed outdated.
Getting back to steering, if you speak to the Driving Standards Agency (DSA), which is the body that polices the driver training industry, and you ask them why the Pull-Push style is still promoted you will find they can offer no good reason other than it is the approved style and it is the only steering method they recognise. This suggests that the only reason it still exists today is because those who promote it will continue to do so, and on the grounds that what has always been done will always be done, because it has always been done in that way. As far as they are concerned, there seems to be no better reason than that. They can't even say for sure where it came from.ridedrive[quote]
An interesting and lucid article, must give these guys a looksee.
I work in an environment where blind obedience to a given method is becoming mandatory and is not conducive to a good level of operation. IMO if the push/pull method was at all practical for everyday driving by the great unwashed then they`d be using it. Perhaps its time that the Advanced driving institutions and the DSA came up with a system that everyone could and would use post test rather than plodding on knowing full well that it will be abandoned, surely this would be more favourable to be trained with a working method rather than the present system where everyone makes up their own style as a replacement.(Hence the rather poor techniques of some)
I don`t think I can recall any other technique taught that is so comprehensively dissmissed as not suitable for modern driving or Humans in general.
(I have an old 1948 Chrysler with a steering box that makes a series 1 Landy seem like it has rack steering and if I used the push/pull method i`d be worn out in short order as the steering wheel is 19" wide, it is power though)
Come on guys use your experience and wisdom and make a change so driving moves forward.
Sits back waiting for the posts about how great push/pull is and how its all you need to use on the road.......
Apart from being procedural, the likely mechanical reason for the Pull-Push steering style may well have been the fact that in those bygone days of driving, cars were so heavy and had such huge steering wheels. To steer a car effectively the Pull-Push method would have no doubt become a necessity, as there was no power assisted steering and so a high level of arm leverage would be required. That being the case there could be a reasoned argument to say the style is indeed outdated.
Getting back to steering, if you speak to the Driving Standards Agency (DSA), which is the body that polices the driver training industry, and you ask them why the Pull-Push style is still promoted you will find they can offer no good reason other than it is the approved style and it is the only steering method they recognise. This suggests that the only reason it still exists today is because those who promote it will continue to do so, and on the grounds that what has always been done will always be done, because it has always been done in that way. As far as they are concerned, there seems to be no better reason than that. They can't even say for sure where it came from.ridedrive[quote]
An interesting and lucid article, must give these guys a looksee.
I work in an environment where blind obedience to a given method is becoming mandatory and is not conducive to a good level of operation. IMO if the push/pull method was at all practical for everyday driving by the great unwashed then they`d be using it. Perhaps its time that the Advanced driving institutions and the DSA came up with a system that everyone could and would use post test rather than plodding on knowing full well that it will be abandoned, surely this would be more favourable to be trained with a working method rather than the present system where everyone makes up their own style as a replacement.(Hence the rather poor techniques of some)
I don`t think I can recall any other technique taught that is so comprehensively dissmissed as not suitable for modern driving or Humans in general.
(I have an old 1948 Chrysler with a steering box that makes a series 1 Landy seem like it has rack steering and if I used the push/pull method i`d be worn out in short order as the steering wheel is 19" wide, it is power though)
Come on guys use your experience and wisdom and make a change so driving moves forward.
Sits back waiting for the posts about how great push/pull is and how its all you need to use on the road.......
Edited by crisisjez on Saturday 26th April 09:12
It isn't always easy to do, but I suggest we should try to avoid doing things automatically all the time, and try to think about what we're doing, and how we're doing it, and see whether any weakness or undue sloppiness has crept in - which it probably will do, at times.
My holding and handling of a steering wheel seems to involve quite a wide variety of strange methods, most of which will not be in any textbook, but it all seems to give a decent result, so I'm not bothered. Admittedly I do use a small amount of pull-push, and fixed grip, and rotational when I feel like it, so I'm not completely out of line all the time.
One thing I do notice about many drivers is that they seem to have a fairly tight grip on their steering wheel, and they give the impression of being tense and anxious, and it certainly doesn't look relaxed and comfortable. I suppose to most people driving is just another task which enables them to do other things, so they just want to get it done and that's all there is to it, unlike most of us here to whom driving is an enjoyable activity.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
My holding and handling of a steering wheel seems to involve quite a wide variety of strange methods, most of which will not be in any textbook, but it all seems to give a decent result, so I'm not bothered. Admittedly I do use a small amount of pull-push, and fixed grip, and rotational when I feel like it, so I'm not completely out of line all the time.
One thing I do notice about many drivers is that they seem to have a fairly tight grip on their steering wheel, and they give the impression of being tense and anxious, and it certainly doesn't look relaxed and comfortable. I suppose to most people driving is just another task which enables them to do other things, so they just want to get it done and that's all there is to it, unlike most of us here to whom driving is an enjoyable activity.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
crisisjez said:
ridedrive said:
Apart from being procedural, the likely mechanical reason for the Pull-Push steering style may well have been the fact that in those bygone days of driving, cars were so heavy and had such huge steering wheels. To steer a car effectively the Pull-Push method would have no doubt become a necessity, as there was no power assisted steering and so a high level of arm leverage would be required. That being the case there could be a reasoned argument to say the style is indeed outdated.
Getting back to steering, if you speak to the Driving Standards Agency (DSA), which is the body that polices the driver training industry, and you ask them why the Pull-Push style is still promoted you will find they can offer no good reason other than it is the approved style and it is the only steering method they recognise. This suggests that the only reason it still exists today is because those who promote it will continue to do so, and on the grounds that what has always been done will always be done, because it has always been done in that way. As far as they are concerned, there seems to be no better reason than that. They can't even say for sure where it came from.ridedrive
An interesting and lucid article, must give these guys a looksee.Getting back to steering, if you speak to the Driving Standards Agency (DSA), which is the body that polices the driver training industry, and you ask them why the Pull-Push style is still promoted you will find they can offer no good reason other than it is the approved style and it is the only steering method they recognise. This suggests that the only reason it still exists today is because those who promote it will continue to do so, and on the grounds that what has always been done will always be done, because it has always been done in that way. As far as they are concerned, there seems to be no better reason than that. They can't even say for sure where it came from.ridedrive
I work in an environment where blind obedience to a given method is becoming mandatory and is not conducive to a good level of operation. IMO if the push/pull method was at all practical for everyday driving by the great unwashed then they`d be using it. Perhaps its time that the Advanced driving institutions and the DSA came up with a system that everyone could and would use post test rather than plodding on knowing full well that it will be abandoned, surely this would be more favourable to be trained with a working method rather than the present system where everyone makes up their own style as a replacement.(Hence the rather poor techniques of some)
I don`t think I can recall any other technique taught that is so comprehensively dissmissed as not suitable for modern driving or Humans in general.
(I have an old 1948 Chrysler with a steering box that makes a series 1 Landy seem like it has rack steering and if I used the push/pull method i`d be worn out in short order as the steering wheel is 19" wide, it is power though)
Come on guys use your experience and wisdom and make a change so driving moves forward.
Sits back waiting for the posts about how great push/pull is and how its all you need to use on the road.......
However the second paragraph is incorrect. The DSA do not insist that pull push is used for test, merely that the driver has accurate effective control with the steering. What your driving instructor may show you to do is another matter, but as far as the test is concerned you won't fail because you don't pull push.
In the real world also, what method of steering you use doesn't matter provided it is accurate, reliable & safe for the purpose. It may matter however if you wish to join a club & pass a test, because their method of choice may be prescribed & you'll be judged on that for test.
Formula one wasn't a good example by the OP, their lock to lock is very short compared to a road car.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 26th April 09:33
7db said:
Comfortable, effective, less of it and probably a little lighter than you'd normally do.
Ah, less of it, you say. I once had a ride in a funicular MX-5 with a chap who seemed quite good at this sort of thing. One thing I particularly remember is going through a medium speed S bend, and him not moving the steering wheel very much at all. 
It seemed to me as if something a bit cunning was going on there, and I still don't understand how it worked. 
For quite a lot of the time I prefer to use a very light and gentle touch on the steering wheel, but of course we should be able to apply a good grip with both hands for more demanding situations, at short notice if necessary.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
p1esk said:
7db said:
Comfortable, effective, less of it and probably a little lighter than you'd normally do.
Ah, less of it, you say. I once had a ride in a funicular MX-5 with a chap who seemed quite good at this sort of thing. One thing I particularly remember is going through a medium speed S bend, and him not moving the steering wheel very much at all. It seemed to me as if something a bit cunning was going on there, and I still don't understand how it worked. For quite a lot of the time I prefer to use a very light and gentle touch on the steering wheel, but of course we should be able to apply a good grip with both hands for more demanding situations, at short notice if necessary.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
vonhosen said:
p1esk said:
7db said:
Comfortable, effective, less of it and probably a little lighter than you'd normally do.
Ah, less of it, you say. I once had a ride in a funicular MX-5 with a chap who seemed quite good at this sort of thing. One thing I particularly remember is going through a medium speed S bend, and him not moving the steering wheel very much at all. It seemed to me as if something a bit cunning was going on there, and I still don't understand how it worked. For quite a lot of the time I prefer to use a very light and gentle touch on the steering wheel, but of course we should be able to apply a good grip with both hands for more demanding situations, at short notice if necessary.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Actually I was just letting off steam with my original post but it has served to open up some interesting discussions. Arguments about preferred technique will go on & on but which ever you prefer there is no doubt that a two handed hold of somewhere between quarter to three & ten to two offer the greatest levels of accuracy & control. On that I think the DSA, IAM, RoSPA, police & Formula 1 etc.would all agree.
7mike said:
Actually I was just letting off steam with my original post but it has served to open up some interesting discussions. Arguments about preferred technique will go on & on but which ever you prefer there is no doubt that a two handed hold of somewhere between quarter to three & ten to two offer the greatest levels of accuracy & control. On that I think the DSA, IAM, RoSPA, police & Formula 1 etc.would all agree.
I wouldn't say any one particular way 'undoubtedly' provides the highest level of accuracy & control. A good pull/pusher will be better than a poor rotational steerer & vice versa. That has more to do with the end user using the most efficient & effective way for them to steer at that moment in those circumstances, than it does the inherent qualities of any one steering method. The ultimate is to be an expert in the application of them all & choose the most appropriate to what you are doing at the time rather than limiting yourself, but ultimate drivers are thin on the ground.
robwales said:
http://www.ridedrive.co.uk/tipoffs10.htm might be of interest
The article about Airbags certainly makes you pause for thought and offers a very good case for pull-push steering (read towards the bottom about the injuries the driver suffered when the airbag deployed midway through 'hand-over-hand' steering
)Symbolica said:
robwales said:
http://www.ridedrive.co.uk/tipoffs10.htm might be of interest
The article about Airbags certainly makes you pause for thought and offers a very good case for pull-push steering (read towards the bottom about the injuries the driver suffered when the airbag deployed midway through 'hand-over-hand' steering)A lot of crashes the airbag doesn't even go off.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 26th April 16:05
vonhosen said:
7mike said:
Actually I was just letting off steam with my original post but it has served to open up some interesting discussions. Arguments about preferred technique will go on & on but which ever you prefer there is no doubt that a two handed hold of somewhere between quarter to three & ten to two offer the greatest levels of accuracy & control. On that I think the DSA, IAM, RoSPA, police & Formula 1 etc.would all agree.
I wouldn't say any one particular way 'undoubtedly' provides the highest level of accuracy & control. A good pull/pusher will be better than a poor rotational steerer & vice versa. That has more to do with the end user using the most efficient & effective way for them to steer at that moment in those circumstances, than it does the inherent qualities of any one steering method. The ultimate is to be an expert in the application of them all & choose the most appropriate to what you are doing at the time rather than limiting yourself, but ultimate drivers are thin on the ground.7mike said:
vonhosen said:
7mike said:
Actually I was just letting off steam with my original post but it has served to open up some interesting discussions. Arguments about preferred technique will go on & on but which ever you prefer there is no doubt that a two handed hold of somewhere between quarter to three & ten to two offer the greatest levels of accuracy & control. On that I think the DSA, IAM, RoSPA, police & Formula 1 etc.would all agree.
I wouldn't say any one particular way 'undoubtedly' provides the highest level of accuracy & control. A good pull/pusher will be better than a poor rotational steerer & vice versa. That has more to do with the end user using the most efficient & effective way for them to steer at that moment in those circumstances, than it does the inherent qualities of any one steering method. The ultimate is to be an expert in the application of them all & choose the most appropriate to what you are doing at the time rather than limiting yourself, but ultimate drivers are thin on the ground.Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 26th April 17:47
vonhosen said:
7mike said:
Actually I was just letting off steam with my original post but it has served to open up some interesting discussions. Arguments about preferred technique will go on & on but which ever you prefer there is no doubt that a two handed hold of somewhere between quarter to three & ten to two offer the greatest levels of accuracy & control. On that I think the DSA, IAM, RoSPA, police & Formula 1 etc.would all agree.
I wouldn't say any one particular way 'undoubtedly' provides the highest level of accuracy & control. A good pull/pusher will be better than a poor rotational steerer & vice versa. That has more to do with the end user using the most efficient & effective way for them to steer at that moment in those circumstances, than it does the inherent qualities of any one steering method. The ultimate is to be an expert in the application of them all & choose the most appropriate to what you are doing at the time rather than limiting yourself, but ultimate drivers are thin on the ground.Regards,
Gary.
The "beauty" of pull-push is what you can also do while "maintaining" any degree of pull-push applied lock.
Such as change gear,signal,sound horn,dip lights etc.*but most of all - carry out an emergency stop while keeping both hands on the wheel.
Such as change gear,signal,sound horn,dip lights etc.*but most of all - carry out an emergency stop while keeping both hands on the wheel.
- =to the above list might be added adjust spark/mixture controls,give hand signals & apply hand brakes(the H/B was once regarded as the primary braking system- locking it on the ratchet while going down hill left hands & feet free for other duties E.G double declutching). All relevent when pull-push was first instituted.
I'm doing ADI training at the moment and one thing I've noticed straight away is how much slower you have to drive when pull/pushing as you simply cant move the wheel at a reasonable speed.
I have demonstrated the dangers of this system to my ADI trainer by showing various on board video's from my airfield training days /trackday / race footage.
I am now coming around to pull push as a low speed steering (for some of the reasons outlined above) method but it has no place in performance driving unless you want to crash.
I will have to teach it as an ADI but I would never recommend push pull once someone has passed their test.
I have demonstrated the dangers of this system to my ADI trainer by showing various on board video's from my airfield training days /trackday / race footage.
I am now coming around to pull push as a low speed steering (for some of the reasons outlined above) method but it has no place in performance driving unless you want to crash.
I will have to teach it as an ADI but I would never recommend push pull once someone has passed their test.
BenElliottRacing said:
I'm doing ADI training at the moment and one thing I've noticed straight away is how much slower you have to drive when pull/pushing as you simply cant move the wheel at a reasonable speed.
I have demonstrated the dangers of this system to my ADI trainer by showing various on board video's from my airfield training days /trackday / race footage.
I am now coming around to pull push as a low speed steering (for some of the reasons outlined above) method but it has no place in performance driving unless you want to crash.
I will have to teach it as an ADI but I would never recommend push pull once someone has passed their test.
Why do you have to teach it as an ADI ?I have demonstrated the dangers of this system to my ADI trainer by showing various on board video's from my airfield training days /trackday / race footage.
I am now coming around to pull push as a low speed steering (for some of the reasons outlined above) method but it has no place in performance driving unless you want to crash.
I will have to teach it as an ADI but I would never recommend push pull once someone has passed their test.
A DSA pass is not dependent on that method of steering, adequate control & accuracy is required.
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