skid pan experience
Discussion
A few decades ago I went on a skidpan session run by Beds police on the skidpan they use for training their own drivers. At the time, Beds county council organised events like this for a nominal fee - I don't know if they still do. The cars were all rwd with massively over-inflated rear tyres so they oversteered everywhere. There wouldn't have been much point doing it in fwd because they would just have understeered off in a straight line at every corner, hard to see the point in training for that. The rwd training was good fun, if irrelevant for most drivers.
GreenV8S said:
A few decades ago I went on a skidpan session run by Beds police on the skidpan they use for training their own drivers. At the time, Beds county council organised events like this for a nominal fee - I don't know if they still do. The cars were all rwd with massively over-inflated rear tyres so they oversteered everywhere. There wouldn't have been much point doing it in fwd because they would just have understeered off in a straight line at every corner, hard to see the point in training for that. The rwd training was good fun, if irrelevant for most drivers.
Nope, try both RWD, FWD and AWD, if available, on a skidpan.Discover the techniques applicable to each.
Handbrake, a useful tool in FWD.
Skid frame is the way to go, they can replicate everything from understeer on roundabouts to oversteer and everything in between, moving off on snow and ice and of course the finale - all 4 wheels off the ground for a total loss of control to avoid people going away cocky thinking they are some rally oversteer god, brilliant fun and learning is always remembered more when its fun, if you look here you should find something near by
Gary
http://www.skidcar.co.uk/index.html
Gary
http://www.skidcar.co.uk/index.html
WhoseGeneration said:
Nope, try both RWD, FWD and AWD, if available, on a skidpan.
Discover the techniques applicable to each.
Handbrake, a useful tool in FWD.
The session wasn't intended to train rally drivers, it was to let joe public get some idea of what happens when the car starts to slide and how to avoid it. This is pretty important on rwd but much less so on fwd/awd.Discover the techniques applicable to each.
Handbrake, a useful tool in FWD.
The IAM web site has a good list of UK skid pans in the links section at:
http://www.iam.org.uk/links/
These are not IAM facililities. IAM training does not generally include any skid control element - the idea is that the training given reduces the likelihood that you will skid.
A word of warning about skid pan sessions. On the plus side you will enjoy yourself, and get an idea about what causes a skid, and some understanding of what happens. On the minus side, what you learn in a typical session will probably not be enough to enable you to recover a skid on the road: on a pan you skid at low speeds, having longer to recover, and with the tyres recovering grip much less sharply than on a better surface. Also, you do not get to skid for long enough for skid control to become instinctive, such that you can pull it out of the hat if a skid develops on the road without warning.
You get a much more realistic experience and a much better understanding of vehicle dynamics from an outstanding instructor if you practise limit handling in your own car on a dry surface with either Andy Walsh of Car Limits or Don Palmer - but you must budget an enormous amount of tyre and other wear on your car. Much more expensive but possibly better value and much more fun.
http://www.carlimits.com/
http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/
http://www.iam.org.uk/links/
These are not IAM facililities. IAM training does not generally include any skid control element - the idea is that the training given reduces the likelihood that you will skid.
A word of warning about skid pan sessions. On the plus side you will enjoy yourself, and get an idea about what causes a skid, and some understanding of what happens. On the minus side, what you learn in a typical session will probably not be enough to enable you to recover a skid on the road: on a pan you skid at low speeds, having longer to recover, and with the tyres recovering grip much less sharply than on a better surface. Also, you do not get to skid for long enough for skid control to become instinctive, such that you can pull it out of the hat if a skid develops on the road without warning.
You get a much more realistic experience and a much better understanding of vehicle dynamics from an outstanding instructor if you practise limit handling in your own car on a dry surface with either Andy Walsh of Car Limits or Don Palmer - but you must budget an enormous amount of tyre and other wear on your car. Much more expensive but possibly better value and much more fun.
http://www.carlimits.com/
http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/
Just a word of warning about skid pans, I am not a fan of these as I have had the misfortune through work of using a number of these that have been poorly maintained and indeed to the point where we were doing nearly 40mph on one in particular before the car would break away and when it did it did so with such ferocity it was impossible to control. As has been mentioned they are a compromise and in my experience the frames are far superior and providing they use a large enough space can be used at real speeds and repeated time and time again to enhance the learning, possibly a wee bit pricier but worth every penny IMHO,
Cheers,
Gary
Cheers,
Gary
GreenV8S said:
The session wasn't intended to train rally drivers, it was to let joe public get some idea of what happens when the car starts to slide and how to avoid it. This is pretty important on rwd but much less so on fwd/awd.
Except if you use a technique learned in one type on the other it`ll end in tears.Learn in the type of car you drive.
crisisjez said:
GreenV8S said:
The session wasn't intended to train rally drivers, it was to let joe public get some idea of what happens when the car starts to slide and how to avoid it. This is pretty important on rwd but much less so on fwd/awd.
Except if you use a technique learned in one type on the other it`ll end in tears.Learn in the type of car you drive.
I think the point being missed is that skid courses are "avoidance" rather than correction, "best way to correct a skid is to avoid getting into one in the 1st place"
Regards,
Gary
jaf01uk said:
crisisjez said:
GreenV8S said:
The session wasn't intended to train rally drivers, it was to let joe public get some idea of what happens when the car starts to slide and how to avoid it. This is pretty important on rwd but much less so on fwd/awd.
Except if you use a technique learned in one type on the other it`ll end in tears.Learn in the type of car you drive.
I think the point being missed is that skid courses are "avoidance" rather than correction, "best way to correct a skid is to avoid getting into one in the 1st place"
Regards,
Gary
Fwd= point at what you are going to hit-training required to overcome natural reaction to turn away, to avoid compounding the understeer.
Rwd= overlimit cornering- natural reaction to back off, can cause lift off understeer.
Fwd= overlimit cornering- natural reaction to back off, can cause lift off oversteer.
And you are right, it is about avoidance, so whats the point of seeing and understanding oversteer and learning how to correct (ideal world) if you drive a Fwd car that will demonstrate understeer.
With regard to the OP most Awd cars bias to the rear so I`d focus on a Rwd. Failing that go to a rally school and learn the correct technique for Awd.
Edited by crisisjez on Sunday 6th April 17:46
Edited by crisisjez on Sunday 6th April 17:51
crisisjez said:
With regard to the OP most Awd cars bias to the rear so I`d focus on a Rwd. Failing that go to a rally school and learn the correct technique for Awd.
In general, 4wd cars follow the handling characteristics of the 2wd car they are based on. I think the OP may have an Evo 6. When I had one, Don Palmer said: 'Wretched car, it just follows wherever the front wheels are pointed'. Jonathan Palmer drove me round Bedford in it, and proved that was not the case by going round every corner sideways! Personally, I never got it out of shape: an amazingly capable car.You have been discussing drive characteristics. I do not intend to get into the specifics; however, one of the most important attributes of a car nowadays in relation to its handling is the nature of the electronic aids fitted. The presence of ESP really changes the way you should react to some skids - eg understeer, with ESP you must maintain or increase the lock applied so the system knows where you want to go. Without ESP you should maybe reduce the steering to recover front wheel grip. Know the features of your own car.
Thanks guys, all of the responses have been interesting and well balanced.
To put you in the picture I actually own an a6 quattro 3.0 petrol (c/w rs6 recaro inetrior)which is pretty good at sticking to the road for an uber barge.
I have had experience of caterhams,sierra cosworth rwd, single seat formula vauxhall, an evo 6 tommi makkinen fully rally car with cage etc., pug 205 rally car full rally spec with cage, and a polo rally car (the last three on pea shingle, tarmac and dirt) and am confident with driving fwd,rwd, and 4wd at the limit.
However my confidence was rocked recently on a trip to the nurburgring in a semi prepped audi coupe 2.2E quattro (non turbo type89) which snapped out from under me at the metzgefeld bend (6th lap in). Possible reasons for this were :-
a) I ran out of talent
b) I over cooked the tyres as I was kicking the living daylights out of it at the time on a "hot" lap
c) I inadvertently touched the grass with a rear tyre cresting the hill
d) I peeled one of the tyres off the rim (one of them had peeled off when we came to rest).
e) the rear suspension adjusted itself mid corner - read on if that sounds strange...
I managed to hold it 3 times as it tank slapped towards the armco at about 95mph but alas eventually it let go big time and my passenger and I braced for impact.
As luck would have it, I missed everything and came to rest in the middle of the track - with a porsche bearing down on me - and managed to get it off the track with a blow out and slightly re-adjusted rear steering geometry (it wasnt crabbing prior to this and made for a weird drive home!).
I dont normally drive like this on UK roads except on the evo triangle etc but feel that i need to perhaps get more experience with unexpected situations like the one at the nurburgring.
I will have a look for the frame schools as they seem to be more inclined towards repeatability and speed.
To put you in the picture I actually own an a6 quattro 3.0 petrol (c/w rs6 recaro inetrior)which is pretty good at sticking to the road for an uber barge.
I have had experience of caterhams,sierra cosworth rwd, single seat formula vauxhall, an evo 6 tommi makkinen fully rally car with cage etc., pug 205 rally car full rally spec with cage, and a polo rally car (the last three on pea shingle, tarmac and dirt) and am confident with driving fwd,rwd, and 4wd at the limit.
However my confidence was rocked recently on a trip to the nurburgring in a semi prepped audi coupe 2.2E quattro (non turbo type89) which snapped out from under me at the metzgefeld bend (6th lap in). Possible reasons for this were :-
a) I ran out of talent
b) I over cooked the tyres as I was kicking the living daylights out of it at the time on a "hot" lap
c) I inadvertently touched the grass with a rear tyre cresting the hill
d) I peeled one of the tyres off the rim (one of them had peeled off when we came to rest).
e) the rear suspension adjusted itself mid corner - read on if that sounds strange...
I managed to hold it 3 times as it tank slapped towards the armco at about 95mph but alas eventually it let go big time and my passenger and I braced for impact.
As luck would have it, I missed everything and came to rest in the middle of the track - with a porsche bearing down on me - and managed to get it off the track with a blow out and slightly re-adjusted rear steering geometry (it wasnt crabbing prior to this and made for a weird drive home!).
I dont normally drive like this on UK roads except on the evo triangle etc but feel that i need to perhaps get more experience with unexpected situations like the one at the nurburgring.
I will have a look for the frame schools as they seem to be more inclined towards repeatability and speed.
As a skid frame instructor, and rally instructor, I agree that the skid frame and the usual type of exercises, have their limitations, but consider how we all learn from our driving experiences.( As a coach in an unrelated field this system is the same for most challenging sports)
We pick up information from the car and its surroundings,(input)
we should know exactly what we want the car to do (purpose and outcome)
we add our own actions at the correct time and amount (actions)
we continuously monitor and review the effect of our actions (assessment)
After a difficult "event" we recall with accuracy, the event, the actions, and our own assessment, then fairly judge ourselves and where improvements might be made.(The self improvement process)
Then we practice it til we get it right!
So by putting ourselves in the skid car, and then being subjected to do all the above in a fast changing and challenging environment, any driver should, with a coach/instructors assistance, benefit from learning how to avoid serious mistakes, make the best us of all the inputs, ensure he has the correct purpose and outcome, is always correct with his actions, and timing, and has sufficient recall of events to try the same situation again and improve his performance. Provided he is ready to learn.
Much of this skill is similar to the way advanced driving is done on the road. An advanced driver, for example, aims, and should be able, to pick up as much information as he can from the road and those on it.
I therefore think skid courses can make a very good training platform for many aspects of improving limit handling skills, given the instructor has appropriate coaching, driving and technical skills.
The maximum benefit available from skid training is for those drivers who have no idea what to do and inevitably make all the common mistakes which makes a tricky situation into one that is much more dangerous than it ever needs to be.
To go back the OP's problem, the art is to know how to quickly build your input reading skills and modify your actions to suit any car with which you are unfamiliar. In my case, having done a few laps of the 'Ring in cars such as Caterham Superlite R and M3, your ability to handle the unexpected is paramount, something I think those with rally experience are usually better at than most.
We pick up information from the car and its surroundings,(input)
we should know exactly what we want the car to do (purpose and outcome)
we add our own actions at the correct time and amount (actions)
we continuously monitor and review the effect of our actions (assessment)
After a difficult "event" we recall with accuracy, the event, the actions, and our own assessment, then fairly judge ourselves and where improvements might be made.(The self improvement process)
Then we practice it til we get it right!
So by putting ourselves in the skid car, and then being subjected to do all the above in a fast changing and challenging environment, any driver should, with a coach/instructors assistance, benefit from learning how to avoid serious mistakes, make the best us of all the inputs, ensure he has the correct purpose and outcome, is always correct with his actions, and timing, and has sufficient recall of events to try the same situation again and improve his performance. Provided he is ready to learn.
Much of this skill is similar to the way advanced driving is done on the road. An advanced driver, for example, aims, and should be able, to pick up as much information as he can from the road and those on it.
I therefore think skid courses can make a very good training platform for many aspects of improving limit handling skills, given the instructor has appropriate coaching, driving and technical skills.
The maximum benefit available from skid training is for those drivers who have no idea what to do and inevitably make all the common mistakes which makes a tricky situation into one that is much more dangerous than it ever needs to be.
To go back the OP's problem, the art is to know how to quickly build your input reading skills and modify your actions to suit any car with which you are unfamiliar. In my case, having done a few laps of the 'Ring in cars such as Caterham Superlite R and M3, your ability to handle the unexpected is paramount, something I think those with rally experience are usually better at than most.
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