Milking the cow?
Discussion
What other steering techniques are there and how are they executed?
I know the reason for the push-pull method but personally find it laborious at times and having read a recent article criticising this method (but didn't mention or expand on the alternatives) was wondering what other good, recognised steering wheel methods are there?
I know the reason for the push-pull method but personally find it laborious at times and having read a recent article criticising this method (but didn't mention or expand on the alternatives) was wondering what other good, recognised steering wheel methods are there?
Fixed grip - Keep hands at 9 and 3 all the time. Used in racing, but not ideal for larger turns. In theory you always know exactly how much lock you have on, but you'll probably need to combine with the one below.
Rotational - typical arm over arm, used by most people. Easy to do. Great for quickly getting a lot of lock on, correcting skids etc.
Pull/push - milking the cow. Slow (relatively), accurate and smooth when done properly. Hated by many, as it takes lots of practice to do it smoothly. Usually easier to operate indicators etc whilst steering.
Solution? Combine them all as and when required.
Rotational - typical arm over arm, used by most people. Easy to do. Great for quickly getting a lot of lock on, correcting skids etc.
Pull/push - milking the cow. Slow (relatively), accurate and smooth when done properly. Hated by many, as it takes lots of practice to do it smoothly. Usually easier to operate indicators etc whilst steering.
Solution? Combine them all as and when required.
I found a good technique a while back - think it's from some performance driving school or other, where you combine push/pull and fixed grip steering.
On the approach to a turn, slide your hands around the wheel to a point that, once you turn, will leave your hands at the 10-to-2 position.
This sets you up so that it's equally easy to add or remove lock in the case of changing radii, skidding, or whatever.
What I like about it is that it forces you to assess the corner beforehand, which is good if you have a tendency to slip into lazy habits.
Obviously only works on relatively quick racks, or gentler turns.
On the approach to a turn, slide your hands around the wheel to a point that, once you turn, will leave your hands at the 10-to-2 position.
This sets you up so that it's equally easy to add or remove lock in the case of changing radii, skidding, or whatever.
What I like about it is that it forces you to assess the corner beforehand, which is good if you have a tendency to slip into lazy habits.
Obviously only works on relatively quick racks, or gentler turns.
Timberwolf said:
I found a good technique a while back - think it's from some performance driving school or other, where you combine push/pull and fixed grip steering.
On the approach to a turn, slide your hands around the wheel to a point that, once you turn, will leave your hands at the 10-to-2 position.
This sets you up so that it's equally easy to add or remove lock in the case of changing radii, skidding, or whatever.
What I like about it is that it forces you to assess the corner beforehand, which is good if you have a tendency to slip into lazy habits.
Obviously only works on relatively quick racks, or gentler turns.
How does it work when you unwind the steering? Is it the opposite of winding on?On the approach to a turn, slide your hands around the wheel to a point that, once you turn, will leave your hands at the 10-to-2 position.
This sets you up so that it's equally easy to add or remove lock in the case of changing radii, skidding, or whatever.
What I like about it is that it forces you to assess the corner beforehand, which is good if you have a tendency to slip into lazy habits.
Obviously only works on relatively quick racks, or gentler turns.
Bert
BertBert said:
Timberwolf said:
I found a good technique a while back - think it's from some performance driving school or other, where you combine push/pull and fixed grip steering.
On the approach to a turn, slide your hands around the wheel to a point that, once you turn, will leave your hands at the 10-to-2 position.
This sets you up so that it's equally easy to add or remove lock in the case of changing radii, skidding, or whatever.
What I like about it is that it forces you to assess the corner beforehand, which is good if you have a tendency to slip into lazy habits.
Obviously only works on relatively quick racks, or gentler turns.
How does it work when you unwind the steering? Is it the opposite of winding on?On the approach to a turn, slide your hands around the wheel to a point that, once you turn, will leave your hands at the 10-to-2 position.
This sets you up so that it's equally easy to add or remove lock in the case of changing radii, skidding, or whatever.
What I like about it is that it forces you to assess the corner beforehand, which is good if you have a tendency to slip into lazy habits.
Obviously only works on relatively quick racks, or gentler turns.
Bert
I read about it on ridedrive.co.uk website.
The thing is... this technique has been used by touring car drivers for decades.
Gromit37 said:
Fixed grip - Keep hands at 9 and 3 all the time. Used in racing, but not ideal for larger turns. In theory you always know exactly how much lock you have on, but you'll probably need to combine with the one below.
Rotational - typical arm over arm, used by most people. Easy to do. Great for quickly getting a lot of lock on, correcting skids etc.
Fixed grip and Rotational are basically one and the same technique. If your fixed grip gets too twisted, you go hand-over-hand.Rotational - typical arm over arm, used by most people. Easy to do. Great for quickly getting a lot of lock on, correcting skids etc.
To the OP, don't worry about steering technique too much. In the words of Alain Prost: "An untidy steering method that allows you full control of the car is vastly preferable to a perfect technique in which you're concentrating so much on it that you're not concentrating on what the car is doing".
Edited by Jungles on Friday 4th January 07:48
This was what completely fried my brain on my Police driving course. Simply couldn't get my head around push/pull for most of the first week- And as someone rightly points out, everything else then starts sliding! It comes in the end, a bit of practice with a dinner plate sorted me out...
carrotchomper said:
This was what completely fried my brain on my Police driving course. Simply couldn't get my head around push/pull for most of the first week- And as someone rightly points out, everything else then starts sliding! It comes in the end, a bit of practice with a dinner plate sorted me out...
It's pull/push not push/pull.Hi all,
When I observed in the car, I once had an associate who could master everything except pull-push. He reached IAM entry level in everything else. I passed him onto other senior observers, to no avail. His rotational steering was consistently smooth and precise, but his whole driving went to pot the moment he used pull-push.
Training I've taken under US and Swedish police instructors didn't use pull-push. It's a shame that we in Britain are less flexible about what we consider "correct" steering.
Timberwolf said:
I found a good technique a while back - think it's from some performance driving school or other, where you combine push/pull and fixed grip steering.
This is a great technique, which was taught to me by a former police driving instructor. It's a shame that advanced driving organisations don't teach this as an option alongside the dreaded pull-push. A bit more flexibility in "acceptable" steering techniques would go a long way.When I observed in the car, I once had an associate who could master everything except pull-push. He reached IAM entry level in everything else. I passed him onto other senior observers, to no avail. His rotational steering was consistently smooth and precise, but his whole driving went to pot the moment he used pull-push.
Training I've taken under US and Swedish police instructors didn't use pull-push. It's a shame that we in Britain are less flexible about what we consider "correct" steering.
Jungles said:
I read about it on ridedrive.co.uk website.
Yes, they teach it to you after you've mastered pull-push. I found this an excellent order in which to learn. RideDrive, I highly recommend 'em Jungles said:
Fixed grip and Rotational are basically one and the same technique. If your fixed grip gets too twisted, you go hand-over-hand.
Not so. At least, not how I was taught on various race and track schools. Circuit instructors have always taught me fixed grip. When you run out of lock, simply switch to fixed grip with one hand. Of course, this is a terrible technique for road driving - if the turn is that tight, then pull-push is probably better. (I've met few people on road or track who teach or advocate rotational steering. Though I'm sure they exist.)Edited by SVS on Sunday 6th January 10:23
SVS said:
Training I've taken under US and Swedish police instructors didn't use pull-push. It's a shame that we in Britain are less flexible about what we consider "correct" steering.
I've wondered about this ever since I came across Roadcraft: just what makes pull-push so good that other steering methods are either disregarded or shoved to niche applications?I understand the alleged advantages of pull-push, but the only fully objective advantage seems to be that it is a slow method of steering and forces the driver to look and plan ahead more. Other alleged advantages like smoothness, etc., all seem highly subjective and target of much debate among driving experts.
It's probably the change-resistant mentality of most public establishments that is the real reason for keeping pull-push as the "correct" method, I guess. Not that that's a bad thing in itself.
SVS said:
Jungles said:
Fixed grip and Rotational are basically one and the same technique. If your fixed grip gets too twisted, you go hand-over-hand.
Not so. At least, not how I was taught on various race and track schools. Circuit instructors have always taught me fixed grip. When you run out of lock, simply switch to fixed grip with one hand. Of course, this is a terrible technique for road driving - if the turn is that tight, then pull-push is probably better. (I've met few people on road or track who teach or advocate rotational steering. Though I'm sure they exist.)Interesting last comment there. In Australia, advocates of pull-push are far and few between. Even in the emergency services, I've never seen pull-push in widespread use. It is taught to some, but not required to be used, and definitely not the preferred technique.
Some state/territory road authorities require pupils to demonstrate pull-push for their basic driving license. However, this is only for one or two such agencies. Generally both pull-push and hand-over-hand are accepted, and the latter is usually taught. In the defensive/advanced driving industry, I've never seen any instructor prefer pull-push over hand-over-hand.
Edited by Jungles on Sunday 6th January 12:34
Jungles said:
I've wondered about this ever since I came across Roadcraft: just what makes pull-push so good that other steering methods are either disregarded or shoved to niche applications?
I understand the alleged advantages of pull-push, but the only fully objective advantage seems to be that it is a slow method of steering and forces the driver to look and plan ahead more. Other alleged advantages like smoothness, etc., all seem highly subjective and target of much debate among driving experts.
It's probably the change-resistant mentality of most public establishments that is the real reason for keeping pull-push as the "correct" method, I guess. Not that that's a bad thing in itself.
In my opinion the main benefit is that it keeps your hands and arms in a position which enables you to add or remove steering quickly. If you are going hand over hand or using fixed grip you can end up in a situation where your ability to quickly apply steering can be compromised until you have changed your grip. I guess a good driver won't have any trouble with that either way, but I think these techniques are chosen with the goal of making any competent driver safe and predictable. Techniques that might make an individual driver faster or safer don't seem to be recommended if they have the potential to make other drivers less safe.I understand the alleged advantages of pull-push, but the only fully objective advantage seems to be that it is a slow method of steering and forces the driver to look and plan ahead more. Other alleged advantages like smoothness, etc., all seem highly subjective and target of much debate among driving experts.
It's probably the change-resistant mentality of most public establishments that is the real reason for keeping pull-push as the "correct" method, I guess. Not that that's a bad thing in itself.
SVS said:
Jungles said:
Fixed grip and Rotational are basically one and the same technique. If your fixed grip gets too twisted, you go hand-over-hand.
Not so. At least, not how I was taught on various race and track schools. Circuit instructors have always taught me fixed grip. When you run out of lock, simply switch to fixed grip with one hand. Of course, this is a terrible technique for road driving - if the turn is that tight, then pull-push is probably better. (I've met few people on road or track who teach or advocate rotational steering. Though I'm sure they exist.)Edited by SVS on Sunday 6th January 10:23
If the turn is turn is that tight then you should be going slow enough that it doesn't make a great deal of difference what technique you use.
Personally I don't worry about low speed steering techniques - it's the high speed stuff (mainly on track) that concerns me more.
In most modern cars with hands at 3 and 9 o'clock, almost all directional changes can be taken care of with no more than 180deg turn of the steering wheel. Anything above this is usually slow speed manoeuvres or you are a rally driver. Also, with practice, it is much, much quicker to turn from lock to lock crossing hands over to 180 degrees on the wheel each time than it is "milking the cow". Advantages are that you will always know which way the wheels are pointing and control of the car in any situation is more precise. Further to this, Sven, Lars, Eric, Heiki, Petter, Markku, Pentti, Tommi etc etc will not laugh at you when they ask you for a lift.
Jungles said:
On gravel rallies, hand-over-hand is the obvious choice.
I'm the kind of chap who thinks porn is watching onboard videos with Colin McRae, Ari Vatanen and the other great rally drivers from the days when World Championship Rallying was rallying and not a watered-down farce.The great rally drivers don't use hand-over-hand. They use a combination of fixed grip and push/pull.
One of the essential things about Roadcraft is consistency and testability. It is a method that is actually not designed for the best drivers. It's actually designed for the rank and file of drivers to be taught to be better.
So pull-push doesn't have to be the best in all circs at all things. It's consistently good and completely testable.
Bert
So pull-push doesn't have to be the best in all circs at all things. It's consistently good and completely testable.
Bert
RT106 said:
Jungles said:
On gravel rallies, hand-over-hand is the obvious choice.
I'm the kind of chap who thinks porn is watching onboard videos with Colin McRae, Ari Vatanen and the other great rally drivers from the days when World Championship Rallying was rallying and not a watered-down farce.The great rally drivers don't use hand-over-hand. They use a combination of fixed grip and push/pull.
I was going to use Ari as my difinitive argument for push/pull and fixed!
My favourite moment of Ari's is the good old Manx 1983 when he clips a wall at the apex of a very fast left hander. I found that video soon after I'd been to a rally school for a day and had been told to push/pull and nothing else. I thought they were mad, until I watched that moment of Ari's in slow motion. While Terry Harriman's saying "Dear God!" good old Ari's calmly push/pulling with a bit of fixed grip thrown in for good measure. I've just watched the whole stage; the only time he uses rotational steering is when he's struggling to get round a hairpin with a flat front tyre. I've allso just had a quick look at my favourite on-board clip of McRae on YouTube; almost exclusively fixed grip, but whenever he does move his hands on the wheel he uses push/pull.
It took me a few months to accept that the rally school were right about push/pull, something I'd discarded the day after I passed my test. Now I use a combination of push/pull and fixed. The only time I ever use rotational steering is when I'm having a big unscheduled slide in the rally car. I panic and flap away at the wheel like some sort of demented gibbon. Very, very amateurish.
My favourite moment of Ari's is the good old Manx 1983 when he clips a wall at the apex of a very fast left hander. I found that video soon after I'd been to a rally school for a day and had been told to push/pull and nothing else. I thought they were mad, until I watched that moment of Ari's in slow motion. While Terry Harriman's saying "Dear God!" good old Ari's calmly push/pulling with a bit of fixed grip thrown in for good measure. I've just watched the whole stage; the only time he uses rotational steering is when he's struggling to get round a hairpin with a flat front tyre. I've allso just had a quick look at my favourite on-board clip of McRae on YouTube; almost exclusively fixed grip, but whenever he does move his hands on the wheel he uses push/pull.
It took me a few months to accept that the rally school were right about push/pull, something I'd discarded the day after I passed my test. Now I use a combination of push/pull and fixed. The only time I ever use rotational steering is when I'm having a big unscheduled slide in the rally car. I panic and flap away at the wheel like some sort of demented gibbon. Very, very amateurish.
Steering wheel size and steering rack ( or other system ) ratio?.
Any bearing on this?.
Let alone tyre size, pas, or not.
In my long gone youth I read lots of driving books and adopted the then "classic" racer system.
Fixed grip.
Then I "did" IAM and had to conform.
Which I carried on with.
It is a good technique but I think many have problems with it's implementation.
Ending up with a "shuffle", then adopting any old approach, as I often see.
This thread got me thinking and I've started to "experiment".
I've not yet come to any conclusions but am continuing to explore using my Scooby and the wife's 160 SR.
Any bearing on this?.
Let alone tyre size, pas, or not.
In my long gone youth I read lots of driving books and adopted the then "classic" racer system.
Fixed grip.
Then I "did" IAM and had to conform.
Which I carried on with.
It is a good technique but I think many have problems with it's implementation.
Ending up with a "shuffle", then adopting any old approach, as I often see.
This thread got me thinking and I've started to "experiment".
I've not yet come to any conclusions but am continuing to explore using my Scooby and the wife's 160 SR.
WhoseGeneration said:
Steering wheel size and steering rack ( or other system ) ratio?.
Any bearing on this?.
I supposed those factors do have a bearing, but not so much bearing that you have to conform to one technique or the other.Any bearing on this?.
I've driven karts, cars, vans, and tractors (a 1960s dinosaur), using fixed grip and hand-over-hand without any worries. I'm sure that pull-push would have also sufficed, except in karts.
Jungles said:
WhoseGeneration said:
Steering wheel size and steering rack ( or other system ) ratio?.
Any bearing on this?.
I supposed those factors do have a bearing, but not so much bearing that you have to conform to one technique or the other.Any bearing on this?.
I've driven karts, cars, vans, and tractors (a 1960s dinosaur), using fixed grip and hand-over-hand without any worries. I'm sure that pull-push would have also sufficed, except in karts.
Now what really gets my goat is when people grab the wheel with their hand facing inwards (i.e. forearm bent up towards them, holding inside the wheel as it were). Uuugh!
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff