Emergency vehicles and traffic lights - reprise.
Discussion
After reading a piece in the Advanced Driver mag, there was an article which basically says, "Don't jump the lights, you're not allowed to (the police are still within their rights to give you points), let the emergency vehicles worry about it"
I watched some events in town this afternoon, and wondered what people thought of this.
A fire engine screamed up eastgate (in leeds) with the blue on, single lane road with a stone buttress dividing the two opposing carriageways. There was a builder's flatbed transit at the front of the lights, lights were red. The fire engine could not go past the flatbed (due to the stone buttress), whereas the flatbed (rightly in my view) should not jump the lights.
So in this situation, as a 'normal' driver, should you sit there sweating at the lights until they turn green while the fire engine pushses to get past?
Could you get points for not allowing an emergency vehicle through? If you were unklucky, you would definitely get points for jumping the red light.
Thoughts please - particularly interested in the observers' and one or two members of the police points of view who post here.
I watched some events in town this afternoon, and wondered what people thought of this.
A fire engine screamed up eastgate (in leeds) with the blue on, single lane road with a stone buttress dividing the two opposing carriageways. There was a builder's flatbed transit at the front of the lights, lights were red. The fire engine could not go past the flatbed (due to the stone buttress), whereas the flatbed (rightly in my view) should not jump the lights.
So in this situation, as a 'normal' driver, should you sit there sweating at the lights until they turn green while the fire engine pushses to get past?
Could you get points for not allowing an emergency vehicle through? If you were unklucky, you would definitely get points for jumping the red light.
Thoughts please - particularly interested in the observers' and one or two members of the police points of view who post here.
Edited by Tonsko on Wednesday 14th November 18:26
I think I posted this in SPL this morning. Short version.
Legal position is that the blue lights mean nothing. You can't jump the red lights without committing an offence. They can treat them as giveway, but can't push you through. You commit no offence by not allowing them past.
Practically, try sitting further back when you stop at lights so that you have a little room to manoeuvre if you should need to. As if the stop line was another car - don't pull right up to it.
I would happily cross the line and commit the offence to let a blue light run through - and if flashed note the registration to substantiate it afterwards. I'd rather have 3 points on my licence than hold up someone putting out a fire.
In other news...fire stations usually send several appliances on different routes to fires so you won't necessarily be holding up the one that gets there first, and also if they are good they'll turn off the lights and music if they can see that you can't let them through, and put them back on when they think you can.
Legal position is that the blue lights mean nothing. You can't jump the red lights without committing an offence. They can treat them as giveway, but can't push you through. You commit no offence by not allowing them past.
Practically, try sitting further back when you stop at lights so that you have a little room to manoeuvre if you should need to. As if the stop line was another car - don't pull right up to it.
I would happily cross the line and commit the offence to let a blue light run through - and if flashed note the registration to substantiate it afterwards. I'd rather have 3 points on my licence than hold up someone putting out a fire.
In other news...fire stations usually send several appliances on different routes to fires so you won't necessarily be holding up the one that gets there first, and also if they are good they'll turn off the lights and music if they can see that you can't let them through, and put them back on when they think you can.
I wonder.
If you were the sort of person who kept to speed limits, because you didn't wish to risk getting points, then perhaps not going through the red light is consistent behaviour & understandable.
If you were the sort of person who habitually broke speed limits (willing to risk points for progress or fun), claiming it was fine because it was safe when you did so, why would you also not safely assist an emergency by breaking the law if it were safe to do so ?
Or is it the case that those who don't speed would be more likely & willing to contravene the red light for an emergency (as an unselfish act for another's benefit), than the habitual speeder who would not (as a selfish act - because they only break the law for their own benefit) ?
If you were the sort of person who kept to speed limits, because you didn't wish to risk getting points, then perhaps not going through the red light is consistent behaviour & understandable.
If you were the sort of person who habitually broke speed limits (willing to risk points for progress or fun), claiming it was fine because it was safe when you did so, why would you also not safely assist an emergency by breaking the law if it were safe to do so ?
Or is it the case that those who don't speed would be more likely & willing to contravene the red light for an emergency (as an unselfish act for another's benefit), than the habitual speeder who would not (as a selfish act - because they only break the law for their own benefit) ?
vonhosen said:
I wonder.
If you were the sort of person who kept to speed limits, because you didn't wish to risk getting points, then perhaps not going through the red light is consistent behaviour & understandable.
If you were the sort of person who habitually broke speed limits (willing to risk points for progress or fun), claiming it was fine because it was safe when you did so, why would you also not safely assist an emergency by breaking the law if it were safe to do so ?
Or is it the case that those who don't speed would be more likely & willing to contravene the red light for an emergency (as an unselfish act for another's benefit), than the habitual speeder who would not (as a selfish act - because they only break the law for their own benefit) ?
You're assuming that jumping a red and breaking a speed limit have some kind of equivalence.If you were the sort of person who kept to speed limits, because you didn't wish to risk getting points, then perhaps not going through the red light is consistent behaviour & understandable.
If you were the sort of person who habitually broke speed limits (willing to risk points for progress or fun), claiming it was fine because it was safe when you did so, why would you also not safely assist an emergency by breaking the law if it were safe to do so ?
Or is it the case that those who don't speed would be more likely & willing to contravene the red light for an emergency (as an unselfish act for another's benefit), than the habitual speeder who would not (as a selfish act - because they only break the law for their own benefit) ?
In law, they do.
In practice, they don't - and well you know it.
CommanderJameson said:
vonhosen said:
I wonder.
If you were the sort of person who kept to speed limits, because you didn't wish to risk getting points, then perhaps not going through the red light is consistent behaviour & understandable.
If you were the sort of person who habitually broke speed limits (willing to risk points for progress or fun), claiming it was fine because it was safe when you did so, why would you also not safely assist an emergency by breaking the law if it were safe to do so ?
Or is it the case that those who don't speed would be more likely & willing to contravene the red light for an emergency (as an unselfish act for another's benefit), than the habitual speeder who would not (as a selfish act - because they only break the law for their own benefit) ?
You're assuming that jumping a red and breaking a speed limit have some kind of equivalence.If you were the sort of person who kept to speed limits, because you didn't wish to risk getting points, then perhaps not going through the red light is consistent behaviour & understandable.
If you were the sort of person who habitually broke speed limits (willing to risk points for progress or fun), claiming it was fine because it was safe when you did so, why would you also not safely assist an emergency by breaking the law if it were safe to do so ?
Or is it the case that those who don't speed would be more likely & willing to contravene the red light for an emergency (as an unselfish act for another's benefit), than the habitual speeder who would not (as a selfish act - because they only break the law for their own benefit) ?
In law, they do.
In practice, they don't - and well you know it.
One is more obviously done than the other, and therein lies the difference.
If I do 75 on an NSL, it's hard to tell that I'm breaking the law.
If I drive through a red light it's easy.
People are more likely to do illegal stuff which is harder to detect by their peers or by the Police / enforcement.
That said - if I had a blue light run behind me and needed to speed to find a spot to let him past, I'd do that too. If he could keep up.
If I do 75 on an NSL, it's hard to tell that I'm breaking the law.
If I drive through a red light it's easy.
People are more likely to do illegal stuff which is harder to detect by their peers or by the Police / enforcement.
That said - if I had a blue light run behind me and needed to speed to find a spot to let him past, I'd do that too. If he could keep up.
I've found the section of the article from the IAM magazine
IAM Magazine said:
The emergency crew - from whichever service - want to get somewhere as quickly as they can. What they are seeking to do is maintain a good average speed. In order to achieve that, they have exemptions to bits of the law - speed limits, traffic lights, bus lanes and so on. As members of the public, we do not have those exemptions. There are cases of drivers being prosecuted for breaching the rules to help emergency vehicles - perhaps this wouldn't happen in an ideal world, but it does in the real one, especially with the spread of camera enforcement. So don't break the law to help - let the trained emergency driver sort that bit out. Don't panic - find the source of the noise, work out where it wants to go, and then make it clear what you are doing to help. Use the indicators, turn the wheels in, or give other signals where appropriate - they help. What does not help, but actually hinders, is stopping opposite an island, or just before a bend without enough vision for the overtake, or at some other point where your vehicle actually becomes the problem. So stay legal, don't panic, think about where to stop or slow down so that passing is easy.
Edited by Tonsko on Wednesday 14th November 18:25
vonhosen said:
I wonder.
If you were the sort of person who kept to speed limits, because you didn't wish to risk getting points, then perhaps not going through the red light is consistent behaviour & understandable.
If you were the sort of person who habitually broke speed limits (willing to risk points for progress or fun), claiming it was fine because it was safe when you did so, why would you also not safely assist an emergency by breaking the law if it were safe to do so ?
Or is it the case that those who don't speed would be more likely & willing to contravene the red light for an emergency (as an unselfish act for another's benefit), than the habitual speeder who would not (as a selfish act - because they only break the law for their own benefit) ?
It's an interesting question.If you were the sort of person who kept to speed limits, because you didn't wish to risk getting points, then perhaps not going through the red light is consistent behaviour & understandable.
If you were the sort of person who habitually broke speed limits (willing to risk points for progress or fun), claiming it was fine because it was safe when you did so, why would you also not safely assist an emergency by breaking the law if it were safe to do so ?
Or is it the case that those who don't speed would be more likely & willing to contravene the red light for an emergency (as an unselfish act for another's benefit), than the habitual speeder who would not (as a selfish act - because they only break the law for their own benefit) ?
I try to drive legally, with the exception of making progress where the national speed limit applies and conditions allow.
In my case, I wouldn't knowingly speed in view of a traffic officer or camera. I would be conflicted when considering whether to run a red light, safely, in order to assist the emergency services if I knew I would be punished.
WilliBetz
Whenever I'm on my blues and twos runs, if I see a situation such as this developing I'll sit well back and switch off the sirens (but leave the lights running). No call is so urgent to justify a collision, and you should certainly never make a driver feel obliged to do something potentially dangerous on your behalf. I often find it's just as quick to allow the lights to change as it is to try and force all the traffic out of your way when they're stopped at the lights.
That said, if there are any other optins (i.e. fully to the offside) I would use those instead.
That said, if there are any other optins (i.e. fully to the offside) I would use those instead.
WeirdNeville said:
Whenever I'm on my blues and twos runs, if I see a situation such as this developing I'll sit well back and switch off the sirens (but leave the lights running). No call is so urgent to justify a collision, and you should certainly never make a driver feel obliged to do something potentially dangerous on your behalf. I often find it's just as quick to allow the lights to change as it is to try and force all the traffic out of your way when they're stopped at the lights.
That said, if there are any other optins (i.e. fully to the offside) I would use those instead.
Thanks for your input. I neglected to mention that the fire engine driver had his sirens switched off.That said, if there are any other optins (i.e. fully to the offside) I would use those instead.
WilliBetz said:
vonhosen said:
I wonder.
If you were the sort of person who kept to speed limits, because you didn't wish to risk getting points, then perhaps not going through the red light is consistent behaviour & understandable.
If you were the sort of person who habitually broke speed limits (willing to risk points for progress or fun), claiming it was fine because it was safe when you did so, why would you also not safely assist an emergency by breaking the law if it were safe to do so ?
Or is it the case that those who don't speed would be more likely & willing to contravene the red light for an emergency (as an unselfish act for another's benefit), than the habitual speeder who would not (as a selfish act - because they only break the law for their own benefit) ?
It's an interesting question.If you were the sort of person who kept to speed limits, because you didn't wish to risk getting points, then perhaps not going through the red light is consistent behaviour & understandable.
If you were the sort of person who habitually broke speed limits (willing to risk points for progress or fun), claiming it was fine because it was safe when you did so, why would you also not safely assist an emergency by breaking the law if it were safe to do so ?
Or is it the case that those who don't speed would be more likely & willing to contravene the red light for an emergency (as an unselfish act for another's benefit), than the habitual speeder who would not (as a selfish act - because they only break the law for their own benefit) ?
I try to drive legally, with the exception of making progress where the national speed limit applies and conditions allow.
In my case, I wouldn't knowingly speed in view of a traffic officer or camera. I would be conflicted when considering whether to run a red light, safely, in order to assist the emergency services if I knew I would be punished.
WilliBetz
My speed strategy is to choose a (safe) speed that is unlikely to get points, but I have no interest in keeping absolutely below the limit. Similarly, I have no problem with going across a red for an emergency vehicle given that I can conclude it is safe.
I currently have 0 points. My strategy may change with > 0 points!
Bert
I currently have 0 points. My strategy may change with > 0 points!
Bert
Tonsko said:
WeirdNeville said:
Whenever I'm on my blues and twos runs, if I see a situation such as this developing I'll sit well back and switch off the sirens (but leave the lights running)....
Thanks for your input. I neglected to mention that the fire engine driver had his sirens switched off.At this point I put my hands over my eyes and chant "Noooo, that's not what I wanted...."
Hopefully the attitude and position of my car will "instruct" other drivers of my intentions, but like everyone I sometimes get it wrong or my signals aren't as clear as they could be. Still, (fingers crossed) never had or caused an accident yet.
Incidentally I drive an unmarked car with covert lights most of the time. Not only does it not project it's emergency status as well as a liveried car, but I'm sure people often assume that it's ultra important as I must be some anti-terrorist unit or some such. This is NOT the case!
Tonsko said:
"Don't jump the lights, you're not allowed to (the police are still within their rights to give you points)
I don't think you'll find many coppers though who would actually issue a ticket for someone letting an ambulance/firetruck or one of their collegues go past on an emergency run.RT106 said:
I'd jump the lights if it was safe to do so. B*gger what the law says.
I wish everyone thought like this. In some of our cases the difference between life and death can litterly be just a single minute.And you'll never know, me might just be on route to one of your relatives in dire need of medical help whilst you refuse to move over and let us pass...
It's not the police officers per se who will issue the tickets It hink (as you're right, it would be a little unreasonable!), more the cameras that are set up to catch folk jumping the lights. There have been cases of motorists challenging these in the courts, and the judges ruling in favour of the penalty, as the average motorist does not have the special dispensation that emergency vehicles have.
I think as always it is a question of is it safe to pull past the lights?
Obviously every circumstance would be different, but imagine for one second your the person needing that emergency attention for whatever reason, your life, your loved ones lives might be depending on it.
I know I, if safe, will go through a red in order to help the emergency services and if it came though If I received a NIP I would protest and argue common sense whilst admitting I willingly broke the law appealing to the judges common sense.
Say the worse happened and I ended up with points over it and a fine but safe in the knowledge that I might have saved someone I really don't care. Yes I would be very annoyed if it came to a ban, but is that worth more the the worst at the other end of the spectrum, a life?
I am sure the local press would have a field day though.
We have to obey the laws of the land and respect them, but at times something might have to give and I'd sooner it be a law then a life.
Obviously every circumstance would be different, but imagine for one second your the person needing that emergency attention for whatever reason, your life, your loved ones lives might be depending on it.
I know I, if safe, will go through a red in order to help the emergency services and if it came though If I received a NIP I would protest and argue common sense whilst admitting I willingly broke the law appealing to the judges common sense.
Say the worse happened and I ended up with points over it and a fine but safe in the knowledge that I might have saved someone I really don't care. Yes I would be very annoyed if it came to a ban, but is that worth more the the worst at the other end of the spectrum, a life?
I am sure the local press would have a field day though.
We have to obey the laws of the land and respect them, but at times something might have to give and I'd sooner it be a law then a life.
Tonsko said:
It's not the police officers per se who will issue the tickets It hink (as you're right, it would be a little unreasonable!), more the cameras that are set up to catch folk jumping the lights. There have been cases of motorists challenging these in the courts, and the judges ruling in favour of the penalty, as the average motorist does not have the special dispensation that emergency vehicles have.
I don't think any camera-issued penalty has ever been overturned on the basis of making space for an emergency vehicle.DVD?
CommanderJameson said:
I don't think any camera-issued penalty has ever been overturned on the basis of making space for an emergency vehicle.DVD?
Oh dear, is that so? I thought there was a time when the emergency services would corroborate your story if they were involved. I read it here on PH years ago so surely it MUST be true!Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff