A question of slowing.
Discussion
You're approaching a line of traffic some way ahead. Close behind you is a driver whose skill you are not particularly confident in. (You've seen them make some kind of large and obvious observational error, say.)
Is it better to,
a) Slow down naturally on a trailing throttle as normal and let the other driver sort themselves out?
b) As above but apply gentle pressure to the brake pedal, just enough to illuminate the brake lights, to make it more obvious you're slowing down?
c) Something else?
My feeling would be (b) in the specific case you're wary of the driver behind, but what do you all think?
Is it better to,
a) Slow down naturally on a trailing throttle as normal and let the other driver sort themselves out?
b) As above but apply gentle pressure to the brake pedal, just enough to illuminate the brake lights, to make it more obvious you're slowing down?
c) Something else?
My feeling would be (b) in the specific case you're wary of the driver behind, but what do you all think?
yes, *when slowing* I often use the brake lights to give extra info to the driver behind where I might not otherwise need to brake. Coming up to queues, coming up to the LH turning off the main road into the road I live.
Bert
PS just to emphasise, this is NOT in the brake test sense, but to communicate what I am doing to the person behind!
Bert
PS just to emphasise, this is NOT in the brake test sense, but to communicate what I am doing to the person behind!
I'd add that where a lot of braking is required, slowing more than you need to early on is handy too - so that they get to the "oh shit, lots of brakes needed" stage whilst you are releasing and giving them more room. Most people build up braking force too gradually which can result in not enough room...
7db said:
I'd add that where a lot of braking is required, slowing more than you need to early on is handy too - so that they get to the "oh shit, lots of brakes needed" stage whilst you are releasing and giving them more room. Most people build up braking force too gradually which can result in not enough room...
Definitely.Get the main braking requirement taken care of early on, but do watch the guy behind to see that you're not presenting him with too much difficulty, and then you can ease off and roll to a gentle stop with no worries.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
If I don't trust the driver behind me (or for example on a motorway where there's a significant gap behind me and traffic potentially arriving at high closing speed) then I'll deliberately flash the brake lights until I'm confident they've been seen. Under light braking this means just touch the pedal enough to bring the lights on. If I'm braking significantly I'll deliberately brake more firmly than necessary and then come off the brakes to flash the lights. It's very rare that I need to brake significantly though. I think flashing brake lights attract more attention than lights that stay on.
7db said:
I'd add that where a lot of braking is required, slowing more than you need to early on is handy too - so that they get to the "oh shit, lots of brakes needed" stage whilst you are releasing and giving them more room. Most people build up braking force too gradually which can result in not enough room...
Goes well with avoidance of BGOL too! Strange that people cite 'meeting the expectations of the driver behind' as a reason for not avoiding BGOL.waremark said:
7db said:
I'd add that where a lot of braking is required, slowing more than you need to early on is handy too - so that they get to the "oh shit, lots of brakes needed" stage whilst you are releasing and giving them more room. Most people build up braking force too gradually which can result in not enough room...
Goes well with avoidance of BGOL too! Strange that people cite 'meeting the expectations of the driver behind' as a reason for not avoiding BGOL.Some people seem to feel that BGOL should be virtually eliminated from their driving, and it sounds as if you may be of that view, but as I understand it BGOL is perfectly acceptable in certain situations for safety reasons, and some of these probably relate to concern about a following driver. Using full separation could take a following driver by surprise by virtue of the fact that you may be braking somewhat earlier than they expect, in which case BGOL shifts your braking point to about where they expect it to be, so it's less of a surprise for them.
Sorry if I'm being a bit dense, but would you care to clear this up?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I don't find the close-following-driver justification particularly convincing tbh, but what's more convincing is the case where I'm taking a tight turn off a fast road and don't want to be stuck out on the main road with traffic behind me closing at high relative speed for any longer than necessary. Slowing down to walking pace and *then* coasting for a couple of seconds while I change gear strikes me as prolonging a very undesirable situation for no good reason.
GreenV8S said:
snip
Slowing down to walking pace and *then* coasting for a couple of seconds while I change gear strikes me as prolonging a very undesirable situation for no good reason.
To me regardless of the situation, slowing to a walking pace and coasting for a couple of seconds is utterly pointless as is a lot of the BGOL mantra.Slowing down to walking pace and *then* coasting for a couple of seconds while I change gear strikes me as prolonging a very undesirable situation for no good reason.
My (un-qualified) view is that the elimination of BGOL is purely of use as a teaching and testing aid in the Roadcraft/IAM/Rospa clubs. It actually has no need to be a present as a stricture for the advanced driver.
But then that's why I'll never be an Advanced Driver!
Bert
TripleS said:
waremark said:
7db said:
I'd add that where a lot of braking is required, slowing more than you need to early on is handy too - so that they get to the "oh shit, lots of brakes needed" stage whilst you are releasing and giving them more room. Most people build up braking force too gradually which can result in not enough room...
Goes well with avoidance of BGOL too! Strange that people cite 'meeting the expectations of the driver behind' as a reason for not avoiding BGOL.Some people seem to feel that BGOL should be virtually eliminated from their driving, and it sounds as if you may be of that view, but as I understand it BGOL is perfectly acceptable in certain situations for safety reasons, and some of these probably relate to concern about a following driver. Using full separation could take a following driver by surprise by virtue of the fact that you may be braking somewhat earlier than they expect, in which case BGOL shifts your braking point to about where they expect it to be, so it's less of a surprise for them.
Sorry if I'm being a bit dense, but would you care to clear this up?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Now, if I was slowing to make a turn and there was no driver close behind, but there was traffic closing rapidly from further back, in this case I would leave my braking till later in order to get out of the way as quickly as possible. On a planned basis I would change gear while still braking using H & T to match revs on the downchange.
IMO Roadcraft makes a bad job of discussing the situations in which it may be good practise to overlap - and I was pointing out that in one of the situations where Roadcraft suggests it may be appropriate to overlap it is often not so.
waremark said:
TripleS said:
waremark said:
7db said:
I'd add that where a lot of braking is required, slowing more than you need to early on is handy too - so that they get to the "oh shit, lots of brakes needed" stage whilst you are releasing and giving them more room. Most people build up braking force too gradually which can result in not enough room...
Goes well with avoidance of BGOL too! Strange that people cite 'meeting the expectations of the driver behind' as a reason for not avoiding BGOL.Some people seem to feel that BGOL should be virtually eliminated from their driving, and it sounds as if you may be of that view, but as I understand it BGOL is perfectly acceptable in certain situations for safety reasons, and some of these probably relate to concern about a following driver. Using full separation could take a following driver by surprise by virtue of the fact that you may be braking somewhat earlier than they expect, in which case BGOL shifts your braking point to about where they expect it to be, so it's less of a surprise for them.
Sorry if I'm being a bit dense, but would you care to clear this up?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Now, if I was slowing to make a turn and there was no driver close behind, but there was traffic closing rapidly from further back, in this case I would leave my braking till later in order to get out of the way as quickly as possible. On a planned basis I would change gear while still braking using H & T to match revs on the downchange.
IMO Roadcraft makes a bad job of discussing the situations in which it may be good practise to overlap - and I was pointing out that in one of the situations where Roadcraft suggests it may be appropriate to overlap it is often not so.
If I've got someone close behind I wouldn't be braking firmer earlier, because that's going to catch them even more unawares & is akin to brake testing. It is IMHO even more likely to cause resentment & conflict.
I would still have got the gear & be back on the drive before turn in, I would just have finished braking closer to the junction & have taken the gear while I was doing the braking. By definition this would only be for low speed turns & stability/smoothness would not have been compromised.
Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 19th September 07:08
This is a judgement issue, and what we do will depend on what we see in our mirror. I am suggesting that with a close follower I will consider starting to slow earlier to give the driver behind more time to respond. On the other hand with a fast approaching vehicle further back I may brake more firmly later in order to be round the junction and clear of the 'main road' before he reaches me. In the second case I will overlap.
GreenV8S said:
I don't find the close-following-driver justification particularly convincing tbh, but what's more convincing is the case where I'm taking a tight turn off a fast road and don't want to be stuck out on the main road with traffic behind me closing at high relative speed for any longer than necessary. Slowing down to walking pace and *then* coasting for a couple of seconds while I change gear strikes me as prolonging a very undesirable situation for no good reason.
Yes I think that's a good example of where it would be very much in the interests of safety to use BGOL, although the general concerns about the close following driver as we arrive at a low speed turn are still relevant I feel.In the example you give, I would probably do preliminary braking, then a DDC downchange, then the final braking, and then nip round the corner, but I'm sure 'the system people' will be upset about that.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
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