Oversteer in FWD cars...
Discussion
Just scared myself silly after taking a roundabout and feeling that the car wasn't gripping (especially at the front) then suddenly the back end goes and I end up spinning 90degrees into the corner. It was kinda understeering so I had to turn in harder and I might have lifted off 
I'm no experienced driver and from what I've read, isn't oversteer in FWD cars quite rare and you need to really provoke it at high speeds for the car to oversteer properly. It was only at about 20-30mph too and I've cornered a lot harder at higher speeds before.
What are you supposed to do when you feel the back end going in a front wheel drive car. Are you supposed to just countersteer as best you can. Will braking unsettle the car like a Mid engined/rear wheel drive car. Can the handbrake be used to bring the car back into line.
Thanx for any help.
I'm no experienced driver and from what I've read, isn't oversteer in FWD cars quite rare and you need to really provoke it at high speeds for the car to oversteer properly. It was only at about 20-30mph too and I've cornered a lot harder at higher speeds before.
What are you supposed to do when you feel the back end going in a front wheel drive car. Are you supposed to just countersteer as best you can. Will braking unsettle the car like a Mid engined/rear wheel drive car. Can the handbrake be used to bring the car back into line.
Thanx for any help.
qwertyford said:
I'm no experienced driver and from what I've read, isn't oversteer in FWD cars quite rare and you need to really provoke it at high speeds for the car to oversteer properly. It was only at about 20-30mph too and I've cornered a lot harder at higher speeds before.
What are you supposed to do when you feel the back end going in a front wheel drive car. Are you supposed to just countersteer as best you can. Will braking unsettle the car like a Mid engined/rear wheel drive car. Can the handbrake be used to bring the car back into line.
Thanx for any help.
What are you supposed to do when you feel the back end going in a front wheel drive car. Are you supposed to just countersteer as best you can. Will braking unsettle the car like a Mid engined/rear wheel drive car. Can the handbrake be used to bring the car back into line.
Thanx for any help.
1) Not if the roundabout was wet/slippery/off-camber. At this time of year the roads can be, ah, 'entertaining' when you're not expecting any trouble. Especially if you lift off.
2) Unwind lock (usually to steer other way - counter-steer, as you say) quite quickly while keeping power consistent - the trick is no sudden inputs with throttle or brake, and smooth steering. Do NOT use the handbrake!!!
Oh...if it happens at a higher speed and you're getting into a tank-slapper (where each time you catch it it pitches the other way), you could try nailing the brakes if your car has ABS...the ABS will help sort the back-end out while you worry about steering the car in the right direction.
thanx for the advice peeps.
My car doesn't have ABS and when I think about it I think I lifted off to try and brake mid corner which I think would unsettle the balance of the car.
One more thing though - Can't cars understeer than snap to oversteer or is this just the fishtailing thing.
My car doesn't have ABS and when I think about it I think I lifted off to try and brake mid corner which I think would unsettle the balance of the car.
One more thing though - Can't cars understeer than snap to oversteer or is this just the fishtailing thing.
F.M said:
boot it
NOT good advice for someone who's not done it before.
Have a hunt around this sub-forum for some general driving threads, but the essence of good driving is SMOOTHNESS. Keep all of your inputs progressive and smooth...they can still be relatively quick when needed, but not jerky or sudden. That way the car will react less to any change in steering/acceleration/braking.
Drive a car smoothly and you can (in a good car...my Focus isn't bad) 'dance' with a car on the edge of adhesion, front-, rear-, or both-ends. Not that you SHOULD on a public road, but once you've practised a bit you'll learn the 'tell-tales' better so you can react sooner (and as a result with less input).
havoc said:
F.M said:
boot it
NOT good advice for someone who's not done it before.
Have a hunt around this sub-forum for some general driving threads, but the essence of good driving is SMOOTHNESS. Keep all of your inputs progressive and smooth...they can still be relatively quick when needed, but not jerky or sudden. That way the car will react less to any change in steering/acceleration/braking.
Drive a car smoothly and you can (in a good car...my Focus isn't bad) 'dance' with a car on the edge of adhesion, front-, rear-, or both-ends. Not that you SHOULD on a public road, but once you've practised a bit you'll learn the 'tell-tales' better so you can react sooner (and as a result with less input).
For lift-off oversteer in front wheel drive, isn't powering out the only option (unless you choose to spin) ???
To "take away the cause" you have to put the power back ???
Martin
You need SOME power yes, but saying 'boot it' to someone who's self-confessed to potentially being not the smoothest might just save up for more trouble.
That was the point I was trying to make - full throttle in a fwd car in this weather with no lsd is a bit silly when the car's stable, let alone when it's oversteering.
That was the point I was trying to make - full throttle in a fwd car in this weather with no lsd is a bit silly when the car's stable, let alone when it's oversteering.
ModernRacer.com DRIVING TIPS
Front-Wheel-Drive Oversteer
"It is generally perceived that front-wheel-drive cars - that is, cars in which the front wheels do both, put power to the road and steer - are understeering wrecks that fly off the road if you go into a corner too quickly. This is generally true, but it is possible to eliminate understeer and actually oversteer to a certain degree. Oversteering fun is not just the domain of rear-wheel-drivers.
Oversteer is best practiced in an open area, and preferably on gravel so you can lose traction without much effort. You will not be able to hold a long, continuous sideways drift around a sweeping corner with a front-wheel-drive car like you can with a rear-wheel-drive vehicle, and you cannot use engine power on a high-horsepower car to start a "powerslide" since the power acts on the front wheels. But still, contrary to popular belief, oversteer is possible with a front-driver.
One way to induce oversteer in your front-driver is to plow hard into a corner and then lift off the throttle in the middle of the corner. Lifting off the throttle will cause the weight of the car to "shift" to the front, thereby putting more weight over the front wheels and, ultimately, adding more grip to the front tires. However, if you are lucky, the rear tires will lose traction and start to slide outwards while you're turning. You are now oversteering. Some countersteer now has to be applied to keep control of the slide, that is, steer in the direction of the slide..."
..`boot` it is a bit of a course description I agree ... smoothness is a much better technique...better to avoid lift off oversteer altogether with a more stable entry into corners..
F.M said:
..`boot` it is a bit of a course description I agree ... smoothness is a much better technique...better to avoid lift off oversteer altogether with a more stable entry into corners.
Depends on the car and your confidence. Had some great fun in the 'teg being rough with her, even got a few mild 4-wheel drifts out of the girl!
NB: Also learned far more from being smooth, and THAT was it's own reward!
havoc said:
2) Unwind lock (usually to steer other way - counter-steer, as you say)
The normal advice to unwind lock is to recover front end grip if you are understeering straight on. Don't do this if your car has ESP/DSC/whatever the manufacturer decided to call it. With this sort of system, you have to keep the wheels turned the way you want the car to turn - maybe turn the steering wheel further - so the computer knows where you want to go. It will then get you there if the laws of physics permit by pulsing the brakes on the side towards which you want to turn.
But if qwerty's car does not have abs it certainly won't have a traction control system. What is it? A 205 gti, famed for lift off oversteer?
It's generally good advice not to apply a significant amount of gas until you are well turned in and confident you will not have to lift off.
Tony, given your thread about heel and toe, the best advice I can give you is to try what you're doing on a track, rather than public roads. You're quite likely to mess yourself, or worse, someone else up doing what you seem to be doing.
Get a tuition day or something, but hooning about not really knowing what you're doing is a recipe for disaster.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but there you go.
PS. To reduce over/understeer you need to reduce the cause. In this case, you felt understeer and wound lock on - you need to do the opposite, but be gentle with it or you get the inverse happening and end up in a big tank slapper. Wind off the lock and reduce throttle. This will transfer grip to the front and reduce the slip angle of the tyres, allowing you to recover. You can try booting it too (depending on what aids are helping you), but IMHO it doesn't work as well.
Oversteer in a FWD is best achieved by lifting off, pretty violently too. In this case, weight transfer to the front makes the rear light, allowing it to slide.
But to be honest, if you want oversteer, by a RWD car!
Get a tuition day or something, but hooning about not really knowing what you're doing is a recipe for disaster.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but there you go.
PS. To reduce over/understeer you need to reduce the cause. In this case, you felt understeer and wound lock on - you need to do the opposite, but be gentle with it or you get the inverse happening and end up in a big tank slapper. Wind off the lock and reduce throttle. This will transfer grip to the front and reduce the slip angle of the tyres, allowing you to recover. You can try booting it too (depending on what aids are helping you), but IMHO it doesn't work as well.
Oversteer in a FWD is best achieved by lifting off, pretty violently too. In this case, weight transfer to the front makes the rear light, allowing it to slide.
But to be honest, if you want oversteer, by a RWD car!
Once again, Thank you so much for all the advice everyone has given me.
I am no experienced driver and the situation I found myself in all happened so quickly. It wasn't even a moment where I was trying to drive fast but merely a situation where I had misjudged how tight the roundabout was and everything happening.
I have considered the driving courses under controlled environments but I kinda got the impression that it might be more useful if I had a more powerful rear wheel drive car.
Currently my car is a simple, old shape, 1.6, Ford Focus, which has bigger wheels on and lowered suspension which in my personal oppinion feels a bit skitish over bumps. As I said before, I have cornered way harder before and the cars just gripped and powered out no problem, no drama. If I was driving a mid engined car like an elise or vx220 and I lifted off or even braked mid corner, would the back end have just gone and spun. What happens when you oversteer in a mid engined car - if you can't catch the slide will the car just do one big spin, or can you just keep the power on a counter and turn harder.
Also, I did feel my face go red
when it happened since I held up a few cars behind. The guy whos car was directly behind was just shaking his head at me and another guy was having a right giggle at me.
Anyway, thanx for the advice again.
I am no experienced driver and the situation I found myself in all happened so quickly. It wasn't even a moment where I was trying to drive fast but merely a situation where I had misjudged how tight the roundabout was and everything happening.
I have considered the driving courses under controlled environments but I kinda got the impression that it might be more useful if I had a more powerful rear wheel drive car.
Currently my car is a simple, old shape, 1.6, Ford Focus, which has bigger wheels on and lowered suspension which in my personal oppinion feels a bit skitish over bumps. As I said before, I have cornered way harder before and the cars just gripped and powered out no problem, no drama. If I was driving a mid engined car like an elise or vx220 and I lifted off or even braked mid corner, would the back end have just gone and spun. What happens when you oversteer in a mid engined car - if you can't catch the slide will the car just do one big spin, or can you just keep the power on a counter and turn harder.
Also, I did feel my face go red
when it happened since I held up a few cars behind. The guy whos car was directly behind was just shaking his head at me and another guy was having a right giggle at me. Anyway, thanx for the advice again.
No worries Tony.
Out of interest - what size wheels and how much have you lowered the suspension by? Oh, and what tyres have you got on there (please not P6000's!!!).
I run a TDCi Sport on the 17" MP3 wheels, with stock Zetec suspension and ContiSports, which is an excellent combination. Plus I've got the geometry set up to ST170 specs.
Oh...just to re-iterate - at this time of year the roads ARE slippery...I've noticed it all over, seems worse this year (but I remember a thread last year where everyone said it was worse then than year before, so i guess people just forget), so if you were still driving at 'summer' speeds that would probably explain it.
Oh...and yes, don't go getting a VX/Elise and driving it like that...you probably would find yourself going backwards. Powerful rwd without traction control takes a fair level of self-control in the wet...I'm not 100% confident with the S2000 in the wet yet.
Out of interest - what size wheels and how much have you lowered the suspension by? Oh, and what tyres have you got on there (please not P6000's!!!).
I run a TDCi Sport on the 17" MP3 wheels, with stock Zetec suspension and ContiSports, which is an excellent combination. Plus I've got the geometry set up to ST170 specs.
Oh...just to re-iterate - at this time of year the roads ARE slippery...I've noticed it all over, seems worse this year (but I remember a thread last year where everyone said it was worse then than year before, so i guess people just forget), so if you were still driving at 'summer' speeds that would probably explain it.
Oh...and yes, don't go getting a VX/Elise and driving it like that...you probably would find yourself going backwards. Powerful rwd without traction control takes a fair level of self-control in the wet...I'm not 100% confident with the S2000 in the wet yet.
havoc said:
No worries Tony.
Out of interest - what size wheels and how much have you lowered the suspension by? Oh, and what tyres have you got on there (please not P6000's!!!).
I run a TDCi Sport on the 17" MP3 wheels, with stock Zetec suspension and ContiSports, which is an excellent combination. Plus I've got the geometry set up to ST170 specs.
Oh...just to re-iterate - at this time of year the roads ARE slippery...I've noticed it all over, seems worse this year (but I remember a thread last year where everyone said it was worse then than year before, so i guess people just forget), so if you were still driving at 'summer' speeds that would probably explain it.
Oh...and yes, don't go getting a VX/Elise and driving it like that...you probably would find yourself going backwards. Powerful rwd without traction control takes a fair level of self-control in the wet...I'm not 100% confident with the S2000 in the wet yet.
Out of interest - what size wheels and how much have you lowered the suspension by? Oh, and what tyres have you got on there (please not P6000's!!!).
I run a TDCi Sport on the 17" MP3 wheels, with stock Zetec suspension and ContiSports, which is an excellent combination. Plus I've got the geometry set up to ST170 specs.
Oh...just to re-iterate - at this time of year the roads ARE slippery...I've noticed it all over, seems worse this year (but I remember a thread last year where everyone said it was worse then than year before, so i guess people just forget), so if you were still driving at 'summer' speeds that would probably explain it.
Oh...and yes, don't go getting a VX/Elise and driving it like that...you probably would find yourself going backwards. Powerful rwd without traction control takes a fair level of self-control in the wet...I'm not 100% confident with the S2000 in the wet yet.
I running 18" OZ super-leggeras on Yokohama Parada Spec 2's on the front and some cheaper federal a539's or something like that on the rear (could this be why I spun cos the ones on rear might be lower grip or should I even put these on the front instead. The parada's are about 1000miles old). Their also, 35profile and 215width.
Suspension wise, I just have some lowering springs (30-35mm) which were fitted from the showroom at the Ford Dealership. Their not the eibachs which a lot of Ford Dealers sell but they were part of one of the various options. I tried calling the dealership for the make of the springs, just so I could get the tracking set acurately but they were no help so the garage just had to have a play around as best they could when they did my tracking. Is it alright to just go and have the tracking done to st170 settings. I went to quite a few garages who said they couldn't do anything without some proper manufactuer settings.
I also have another set of alloys in the garage. These are momo gtr's, 17inch, 40 profile and 215 width. Would it be an idea to change over to these alloys in the winter. These have two brand new nankangs (budget) and also two semi-treaded avon/toyo tyres. Can't remember. Would these need different tracking setting to the 18's.
Thanx again.
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