Brake Gear Overlap.
Discussion
Please bear with me, as this will be the last question for a while. I'm becoming embarrassed by the amount of questions. I'm sure you would all rather be out driving, than typing on here.
Anyway, I just wondered if anyone else suffered with brake gear overlap when applying the system. I find I have two main problems with it.
1) going downhill, even slightly, I'm not sure if you should be overlapping the brake as otherwise it would run away when releasing it. Should/Can I be overlapping when a turn or change of direction is approached from downhill.
2) this may appear really really foolish, but I'm hoping I'm not the only one to feel this way. I find that if I apply the system, I've got to approach a hazard slower than other drivers, brake earlier, and then come off the brake earlier. The trouble is, I feel silly when doing it, almost as if other drivers behind me are thinking "what on earth is she doing". I realise that they system is safe and controlled, but it is obviously slower than the way some drive. How can I apply it, without thinking that those behind me are thinking "tsk tsk, come along now" (or perhaps even worse).
Regards
Sally
P.S. I realise I can ask my Observer these questions on Wednesday's drive, but I find it helps to get a cross balance of views on here.
Anyway, I just wondered if anyone else suffered with brake gear overlap when applying the system. I find I have two main problems with it.
1) going downhill, even slightly, I'm not sure if you should be overlapping the brake as otherwise it would run away when releasing it. Should/Can I be overlapping when a turn or change of direction is approached from downhill.
2) this may appear really really foolish, but I'm hoping I'm not the only one to feel this way. I find that if I apply the system, I've got to approach a hazard slower than other drivers, brake earlier, and then come off the brake earlier. The trouble is, I feel silly when doing it, almost as if other drivers behind me are thinking "what on earth is she doing". I realise that they system is safe and controlled, but it is obviously slower than the way some drive. How can I apply it, without thinking that those behind me are thinking "tsk tsk, come along now" (or perhaps even worse).
Regards
Sally
P.S. I realise I can ask my Observer these questions on Wednesday's drive, but I find it helps to get a cross balance of views on here.
Lady Godiva said:
Please bear with me, as this will be the last question for a while. I'm becoming embarrassed by the amount of questions. I'm sure you would all rather be out driving, than typing on here.
Its not a problem!
You should not need to overlap brake and gear. There are some circumstances where you might consider it...
Lady Godiva said:
1) going downhill, even slightly, I'm not sure if you should be overlapping the brake as otherwise it would run away when releasing it. Should/Can I be overlapping when a turn or change of direction is approached from downhill.
...and here's one. Yes if the car would "run away" on a steep downhill and you have not previously selected the proper gear for the descent, or the gradient changed beyond your visibility you might need to maintain light pressure on the brake during the gear change to get the new gear without the car speeding up under the force of gravity.
The circumstances are exceptional. In normal driving it should never be necessary. Usually the need is because of some earlier mistake.
Lady Godiva said:
2) this may appear really really foolish, but I'm hoping I'm not the only one to feel this way. I find that if I apply the system, I've got to approach a hazard slower than other drivers, brake earlier, and then come off the brake earlier. The trouble is, I feel silly when doing it, almost as if other drivers behind me are thinking "what on earth is she doing". I realise that they system is safe and controlled, but it is obviously slower than the way some drive. How can I apply it, without thinking that those behind me are thinking "tsk tsk, come along now" (or perhaps even worse).
Do not feel silly. It is *they* who are making the error - not you. Remember the old racing adage - slow in, fast out. By making time before the hazard to get your speed right and select the proper gear (preferably with matched revs) you the have advantage of having both hands available for steering the car through the hazard at the critical moment and the benefit of being in the right gear as you exit the hazard with the ability to put your foot down and accelerate away smartly.
Those who brake late, change down under braking, end up braking into the turn and changing gear whilst trying to steer around the corner with one hand usually end up with the car well out of balance and in the wrong gear - when the time comes to accelerate away you will a hundred yards in front of them. Now who's silly, eh?
Oh yes:
Often when one is being followed closely by some utter cock of a tailgater one feels the need to "get out of their way" by turning off the road too fast.
Don't. Slow down in plenty of time so they have loads of time to react gently without hitting you.
Why put yourself in danger for someone else's convenience?
>> Edited by Don on Sunday 2nd April 11:19
Often when one is being followed closely by some utter cock of a tailgater one feels the need to "get out of their way" by turning off the road too fast.
Don't. Slow down in plenty of time so they have loads of time to react gently without hitting you.
Why put yourself in danger for someone else's convenience?
>> Edited by Don on Sunday 2nd April 11:19
I think there are two sides to the answer.
From the point of view of driver load, it is technically easier to keep steering, braking and gear changes separate. The need for steering is not really negotiable so you organise everything else around that. But how important this is, depends on the capabilities of the driver relative to the workload they are under.
From the point of view of car handling, changing down can result in engine braking and/or clutch braking being applied to the driven wheels. This may upset the brake balance. The importance of this will depend on how much grip is available, whether the car is front wheel drive or rear wheel drive, and how much engine/clutch braking is being applied. If you are in a fwd car with modest power and plenty of grip, engine/clutch braking is really not an issue. If you are in a powerful rwd car in slippery conditions it can be a seriously bad idea.
So my approach is that if the driver is capable of doing it easily, and there is no shortage of stability or grip, I have no problem with braking and changing gear, or braking and steering, and I'll concentrate on keeping the transitions smooth and fluid rather than prescribing a specific method to be followed in all cases.
From the point of view of driver load, it is technically easier to keep steering, braking and gear changes separate. The need for steering is not really negotiable so you organise everything else around that. But how important this is, depends on the capabilities of the driver relative to the workload they are under.
From the point of view of car handling, changing down can result in engine braking and/or clutch braking being applied to the driven wheels. This may upset the brake balance. The importance of this will depend on how much grip is available, whether the car is front wheel drive or rear wheel drive, and how much engine/clutch braking is being applied. If you are in a fwd car with modest power and plenty of grip, engine/clutch braking is really not an issue. If you are in a powerful rwd car in slippery conditions it can be a seriously bad idea.
So my approach is that if the driver is capable of doing it easily, and there is no shortage of stability or grip, I have no problem with braking and changing gear, or braking and steering, and I'll concentrate on keeping the transitions smooth and fluid rather than prescribing a specific method to be followed in all cases.
This was one area I had immense problems with when I did the IAM. My personal driving style is to overlap braking and changing gear (and heel & toe when driving the Chimaera). I found it almost impossible to separate them despite my Observer spending a lot of time helping me achieve it and I only managed it well enough to pass my IAM test whereupon it was the first thing I discarded again.
>> Edited by JonRB on Sunday 2nd April 12:27
>> Edited by JonRB on Sunday 2nd April 12:27
There is a good article on brake/ gear overlap here:
www.roada.org/articles/overlap.htm
I agree that it is one of the hardest aspects of advanced driving to adapt to. It's also the first thing that I disregard when I'm 'making progress' as I find 'heal and toe' to be a more satisfactory technique. During normal driving I don't find separating brakes and gears to be a problem now that I've had the system drummed into me.
www.roada.org/articles/overlap.htm
I agree that it is one of the hardest aspects of advanced driving to adapt to. It's also the first thing that I disregard when I'm 'making progress' as I find 'heal and toe' to be a more satisfactory technique. During normal driving I don't find separating brakes and gears to be a problem now that I've had the system drummed into me.
Firstly a lot of people convince themselves that they are performing full seperation, when infact they actually perform partial overlaps. I'll explain....
Full seperation
What should be happening for full seperation, is that when you are on the brake your left foot should not be over the clutch. If your left foot goes to the clutch early you will depress it before it is time, you can't help it. If it's not there you can't depress it. If you visualise the three pedals, the time that your foot should go to the clutch is at the same time as your foot moves from brake pedal to the accelerator, so they move to the right in unison. If you are doing it correctly it will not feel at all natural to start with, it should feel really exaggerated, so you don't have the foot over the clutch until the other foot has left the brake.
The most common cause for people not being able to seperate is not making enough time to do it, and the cause of that is insufficient second stage braking. You can't brake to the hazard, you have to brake away from it. The system is a series of appointments & we all know that if you are late for your first appointment it has a knock on effect & you run out of time.
If we think of a typical tightish left turn from a major road into a minor road, you are only going to turn in at say 10mph. At 10mph we are travelling at 15ft per second. We need at least 2 seconds for our unhurried gear change in the system. That is 30ft for the gear change. What you effectively have to visualise is an artic parked between you & the junction right up to the mouth of it. You need to be at the right speed for the turn & off the brakes when you get to the rear of the artic. Then as you travel along the length of the artic you get your unhurried gear (with a good "Rev" as the gear lever passes neutral) & be off the clutch with the pedals blanced before entry. If you've got the timing exactly right, you should be off the clutch & just have time to raise your left hand to your mouth & blow on your fingernails before you take the wheel with your left hand at a 12 O'clock position & pull the steering to turn in.
When you are braking away from the junction to make room, think artic !
A common fault is people doing partial seperation (but believing they are actually seperating). You shouldn't be partial seperating, it's full seperation or overlap.
Partial seperation
If the foot goes to the clutch it will inevitably be depressed too early. Those who suffer from this do the following. As they release the brake pedal, because the foot is over the clutch they depress the clutch, in effect the feet just passing each other at the top end of pedal travel (just starting to presss one whilst just finishing with the other). This shouldn't happen. Anyone watching your feet should see clear seperation & both feet moving right at the sametime as described in full seperation.
Full overlap
A full overlap is perfectly acceptable on the grounds of safety. It shouldn't of course be a forced action as a result of a misjudgement, but should instead be part of a pre-planned approach to compromise the system on the grounds of safety. In commentary you would say "I am going to overlap on the grounds of safety because......" NOT " I overlapped because...." (which is historical & never convincing.)
For the full overlap you would extend the braking (so it's slightly less firm in the 2nd stage brakes) & as you are alongside the artic whilst still on the brake, you fully depress the clutch & take the required gear (there is no "Rev" on the downchange with an overlap. This is not a problem because road speed & engine speed will be so low & slightly slower than if you had seperated.) You should then start to gently release the clutch & effectively come off the clutch & brake pedal together at the correct speed just prior to turning in. You should still also be off the brake & clutch, with your foot on the accelerator, BEFORE you turn in.
The typical times that an overlap would be used as part of a pre-planned approach are.
1) Where you wish to turn left or right from a major road into a minor & it is on a steep downhill gradient. This is because where you unhurriedly take your gear over that 2 seconds, the vehicle will roll on a great deal, picking up speed & this will result on your entry speed being too high with you then ending up running wide into the new road & into conflict with others.
2) Where you overlap for one close behind so as to meet with their expectations of your braking. Most people turn left steering with one hand & catching a gear mid turn with the other. This is what they will expect you to do also. They expect you to brake all the way up to & into the turn. They will not expect you to brake firmly away from a junction at up to an artic distance away. So we overlap to meet with their expectations in order to not get an adverse reaction from them & so that they don't run into the back of us. We still should be off the brake & clutch before turning in though.
In general if you are considering an overlap, if there is a vehicle behind & it is going to have to brake for you taking the turn, then you can justify the overlap.
3) Where we want to take a junction left & there is a vehicle in our current road waiting to turn right across our path into that junction. Again we overlap to meet with their expectations of braking. If we brake away in these circumstances they may see this as an invitation to turn in ahead of us & pound to a penny they turn in as you come off the brake to get your gear resulting in a hurried re-application of the brakes to avoid a collision.
4) Where we want to take a junction right & there is a vehicle in that junction waiting to pull out & turn right across our path. This again is so that they don't see our braking as an invitation to pull out across our path causing potential danger.
We don't do an overlap where we want to turn right in order to complete the turn across the path of a quick one towards on the our road. This is because we would then be doing the overlap for speed (progress) NOT for safety. We instead would have to pull up & take 1st gear, wait for the vehicle to pass & then turn in when safe. We can compromise the system for safety as safety is the top priority, but we can't compromise the system for speed, which has a lower priority than the system itself.
Remember the order of priority is
Safety
System
Smoothness
Speed
You can compromise one "S" for an "S" above it in the list, but not for one below it.
The first thing you need to do is get used to braking without having your foot near the clutch & to do that try this exercise. Find some very quiet roads to practice on & make sure you check your mirrors & that it is clear behind before you do it. At a decent speed come off the drive & use a little acceleration sense before feeding in the gentle brakes & going smoothly to firmer brakes (& I mean firm). The attitude of the car needs to change so that the weight transfers forward. If your car is a petrol car & you are in 3rd you should be able to get comfortably down to about 10-12mph without it stalling. Make sure as you do it your foot is nowhere near the clutch. When you have finsihed the firm braking & got down to that speed, gently release the brake pedal (3rd stage braking, don't jump off it !) so that they weight transfers gently back & inertia lets the vehicle roll on.
Count to 2 then go to the clutch & take second gear. This is really exaggerating the seperation.
Accelerate back up to speed & repeat. Just get used to braking firmly away without your foot over the clutch so that you have the confidence to do it.
As it becomes easier to do, you can reduce the time you wait to take the gear.
The hand shouldn't leave the wheel to go to the gear lever unless the foot is going to the clutch & vice versa.
The only time other than a planned overlap, that the foot should go to the clutch whilst you are still on the brake, is when you think it may stall & you have to depress the clutch to prevent it. Anytime you do this you should be going to 1st gear OR it's an overlap & not on the grounds of safety either.
Full seperation
What should be happening for full seperation, is that when you are on the brake your left foot should not be over the clutch. If your left foot goes to the clutch early you will depress it before it is time, you can't help it. If it's not there you can't depress it. If you visualise the three pedals, the time that your foot should go to the clutch is at the same time as your foot moves from brake pedal to the accelerator, so they move to the right in unison. If you are doing it correctly it will not feel at all natural to start with, it should feel really exaggerated, so you don't have the foot over the clutch until the other foot has left the brake.
The most common cause for people not being able to seperate is not making enough time to do it, and the cause of that is insufficient second stage braking. You can't brake to the hazard, you have to brake away from it. The system is a series of appointments & we all know that if you are late for your first appointment it has a knock on effect & you run out of time.
If we think of a typical tightish left turn from a major road into a minor road, you are only going to turn in at say 10mph. At 10mph we are travelling at 15ft per second. We need at least 2 seconds for our unhurried gear change in the system. That is 30ft for the gear change. What you effectively have to visualise is an artic parked between you & the junction right up to the mouth of it. You need to be at the right speed for the turn & off the brakes when you get to the rear of the artic. Then as you travel along the length of the artic you get your unhurried gear (with a good "Rev" as the gear lever passes neutral) & be off the clutch with the pedals blanced before entry. If you've got the timing exactly right, you should be off the clutch & just have time to raise your left hand to your mouth & blow on your fingernails before you take the wheel with your left hand at a 12 O'clock position & pull the steering to turn in.
When you are braking away from the junction to make room, think artic !
A common fault is people doing partial seperation (but believing they are actually seperating). You shouldn't be partial seperating, it's full seperation or overlap.
Partial seperation
If the foot goes to the clutch it will inevitably be depressed too early. Those who suffer from this do the following. As they release the brake pedal, because the foot is over the clutch they depress the clutch, in effect the feet just passing each other at the top end of pedal travel (just starting to presss one whilst just finishing with the other). This shouldn't happen. Anyone watching your feet should see clear seperation & both feet moving right at the sametime as described in full seperation.
Full overlap
A full overlap is perfectly acceptable on the grounds of safety. It shouldn't of course be a forced action as a result of a misjudgement, but should instead be part of a pre-planned approach to compromise the system on the grounds of safety. In commentary you would say "I am going to overlap on the grounds of safety because......" NOT " I overlapped because...." (which is historical & never convincing.)
For the full overlap you would extend the braking (so it's slightly less firm in the 2nd stage brakes) & as you are alongside the artic whilst still on the brake, you fully depress the clutch & take the required gear (there is no "Rev" on the downchange with an overlap. This is not a problem because road speed & engine speed will be so low & slightly slower than if you had seperated.) You should then start to gently release the clutch & effectively come off the clutch & brake pedal together at the correct speed just prior to turning in. You should still also be off the brake & clutch, with your foot on the accelerator, BEFORE you turn in.
The typical times that an overlap would be used as part of a pre-planned approach are.
1) Where you wish to turn left or right from a major road into a minor & it is on a steep downhill gradient. This is because where you unhurriedly take your gear over that 2 seconds, the vehicle will roll on a great deal, picking up speed & this will result on your entry speed being too high with you then ending up running wide into the new road & into conflict with others.
2) Where you overlap for one close behind so as to meet with their expectations of your braking. Most people turn left steering with one hand & catching a gear mid turn with the other. This is what they will expect you to do also. They expect you to brake all the way up to & into the turn. They will not expect you to brake firmly away from a junction at up to an artic distance away. So we overlap to meet with their expectations in order to not get an adverse reaction from them & so that they don't run into the back of us. We still should be off the brake & clutch before turning in though.
In general if you are considering an overlap, if there is a vehicle behind & it is going to have to brake for you taking the turn, then you can justify the overlap.
3) Where we want to take a junction left & there is a vehicle in our current road waiting to turn right across our path into that junction. Again we overlap to meet with their expectations of braking. If we brake away in these circumstances they may see this as an invitation to turn in ahead of us & pound to a penny they turn in as you come off the brake to get your gear resulting in a hurried re-application of the brakes to avoid a collision.
4) Where we want to take a junction right & there is a vehicle in that junction waiting to pull out & turn right across our path. This again is so that they don't see our braking as an invitation to pull out across our path causing potential danger.
We don't do an overlap where we want to turn right in order to complete the turn across the path of a quick one towards on the our road. This is because we would then be doing the overlap for speed (progress) NOT for safety. We instead would have to pull up & take 1st gear, wait for the vehicle to pass & then turn in when safe. We can compromise the system for safety as safety is the top priority, but we can't compromise the system for speed, which has a lower priority than the system itself.
Remember the order of priority is
Safety
System
Smoothness
Speed
You can compromise one "S" for an "S" above it in the list, but not for one below it.
The first thing you need to do is get used to braking without having your foot near the clutch & to do that try this exercise. Find some very quiet roads to practice on & make sure you check your mirrors & that it is clear behind before you do it. At a decent speed come off the drive & use a little acceleration sense before feeding in the gentle brakes & going smoothly to firmer brakes (& I mean firm). The attitude of the car needs to change so that the weight transfers forward. If your car is a petrol car & you are in 3rd you should be able to get comfortably down to about 10-12mph without it stalling. Make sure as you do it your foot is nowhere near the clutch. When you have finsihed the firm braking & got down to that speed, gently release the brake pedal (3rd stage braking, don't jump off it !) so that they weight transfers gently back & inertia lets the vehicle roll on.
Count to 2 then go to the clutch & take second gear. This is really exaggerating the seperation.
Accelerate back up to speed & repeat. Just get used to braking firmly away without your foot over the clutch so that you have the confidence to do it.
As it becomes easier to do, you can reduce the time you wait to take the gear.
The hand shouldn't leave the wheel to go to the gear lever unless the foot is going to the clutch & vice versa.
The only time other than a planned overlap, that the foot should go to the clutch whilst you are still on the brake, is when you think it may stall & you have to depress the clutch to prevent it. Anytime you do this you should be going to 1st gear OR it's an overlap & not on the grounds of safety either.
So what if we heel & toe?? Is that not allowed?
Seems a little odd that the IAM go to such great lengths to get drivers to do the seperation technique, when they could be teaching people proper type driving too (which is probably more useful in the real world)
I find I heel & toe almost all the time (and ddc) I rarely think about & I find it prefectly natural, obviously it gives you extra opportunities too.
One area I find it very useful compared to the seperation system is approaching roundabouts for example, where you can choose a taller gear to start with if its clear, then decrease the gear according to whats approaching or not, whilst being on the brake pedal during all of the approach just in case. A constantly smooth braked car is far more stable than one that is'nt & obviously more comfortable for passengers too.
I shant mention passengers falling aspleep & playing G-Meters with their heads
Seems a little odd that the IAM go to such great lengths to get drivers to do the seperation technique, when they could be teaching people proper type driving too (which is probably more useful in the real world)
I find I heel & toe almost all the time (and ddc) I rarely think about & I find it prefectly natural, obviously it gives you extra opportunities too.
One area I find it very useful compared to the seperation system is approaching roundabouts for example, where you can choose a taller gear to start with if its clear, then decrease the gear according to whats approaching or not, whilst being on the brake pedal during all of the approach just in case. A constantly smooth braked car is far more stable than one that is'nt & obviously more comfortable for passengers too.
I shant mention passengers falling aspleep & playing G-Meters with their heads
cptsideways said:
So what if we heel & toe?? Is that not allowed?
Not really apparently as that goes completely against the method and discipline of the non-overlapping technique. As I understand it, overlapping gives 2 problems - hand off the wheel whilst braking and having to deal with the de-stabilising effect of the gear change.
However, I think that as with many systems, rigid adherance to a principle for the sake of the principle is wrong and the application of the right piece for the circs is the right thing. I have focused on two key things in the last few years of my driving. One is practising all the techniques I have found a reason to use. Overlapping, seperating, throttle blipping on downshifts, heel and toe'ing, blockshifts (up and down), gear by gear shifts (u and d). I rarely ddc, but sometimes do if I feel the need to help the syncro out. Then I have tried to work out when and how to use them. It makes driving much more interesting!
Graham
Forgot the other key thing...improving my observation so I don't end up concentrating on all the other techniques and forget to look where I am going!!
cptsideways said:
So what if we heel & toe?? Is that not allowed?
Seems a little odd that the IAM go to such great lengths to get drivers to do the seperation technique, when they could be teaching people proper type driving too (which is probably more useful in the real world)
I find I heel & toe almost all the time (and ddc) I rarely think about & I find it prefectly natural, obviously it gives you extra opportunities too.
One area I find it very useful compared to the seperation system is approaching roundabouts for example, where you can choose a taller gear to start with if its clear, then decrease the gear according to whats approaching or not, whilst being on the brake pedal during all of the approach just in case. A constantly smooth braked car is far more stable than one that is'nt & obviously more comfortable for passengers too.
I shant mention passengers falling aspleep & playing G-Meters with their heads
The most skilful drivers will have more tools in the box & will use different techniques for circumstances. Same goes for things like steering. The best driver will be adept at all methods and can change in a heartbeat from one to other, based on need for circumstances at that time.
We are talking about someone here though practicing for an IAM test, which will not include heel/toe techniques as part of the syllabus. Although there are circumstances on road where heel toe can be of benefit, it is more suited to track than road IMHO.
Seperation encourages you to brake away from the hazard in order to create adequate room for the gear. This produces a useful by product, of ensuring that you are never likely to be too "hot" for the hazard, even where you slightly misjudge it. Remember that roadcraft is built around different ideals than racecraft, in a great many things track & road are almost completely seperate entity's in their goals/objectives & don't always transfer well from one discipline to the other.
Being a good track driver doesn't necessarily mean you are a good road driver or vice versa.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 2nd April 22:24
gridgway said:
However, I think that as with many systems, rigid adherance to a principle for the sake of the principle is wrong and the application of the right piece for the circs is the right thing.
Remember who roadcraft was written for & why though.
The Police are taught a way to do things, best practice, best training. It is rigid because if they do what they are taught, they aren't going to mess up. If they go outside that teaching & mess up, guess who carries the can ?
A lot of the teachings can seem very anal at times (things like gear lever grip) but when examined there are good reasons why they stick with the tried & tested methods they use. They offer proven safety, consistancy & accuracy. They are designed so that under great pressure the systems used will not falter. Only where the driver goes outside those teachings will the driver leave themselves vulnerable.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 2nd April 22:30
1) going downhill, even slightly, I'm not sure if you should be overlapping the brake as otherwise it would run away when releasing it. Should/Can I be overlapping when a turn or change of direction is approached from downhill.
Yep, this is one of the common uses of overlap.
2) this may appear really really foolish, but I'm hoping I'm not the only one to feel this way. I find that if I apply the system, I've got to approach a hazard slower than other drivers, brake earlier, and then come off the brake earlier. The trouble is, I feel silly when doing it, almost as if other drivers behind me are thinking "what on earth is she doing". I realise that they system is safe and controlled, but it is obviously slower than the way some drive. How can I apply it, without thinking that those behind me are thinking "tsk tsk, come along now" (or perhaps even worse).
You approach hazards slower, that is the idea of the system to give you time to react.
Other drivers will think this is unusual, so either show brake lights early, or if they are very close, it may justify a "planned" overlap to prevent you from slowing them down more than they may anticipate.
Overlapping is fine so long as it is planned beforehand, and done to facilitate safety, not speed.
Martin
cptsideways said:You can't heel-toe in all cars, though. In my car, you risk serious ankle sprain when trying to heel-toe.
So what if we heel & toe?? Is that not allowed?
Seems a little odd that the IAM go to such great lengths to get drivers to do the seperation technique, when they could be teaching people proper type driving too (which is probably more useful in the real world)
On the other hand, you can BGOL or fully separate B and G, in all cars.
Heel-toe is a good and valid technique, and a useful one under some circumstances. It's just not a universally-applicable technique.
cptsideways said:
So what if we heel & toe?? Is that not allowed?
Seems a little odd that the IAM go to such great lengths to get drivers to do the seperation technique, when they could be teaching people proper type driving too (which is probably more useful in the real world)
I find I heel & toe almost all the time (and ddc) I rarely think about & I find it prefectly natural, obviously it gives you extra opportunities too.
One area I find it very useful compared to the seperation system is approaching roundabouts for example, where you can choose a taller gear to start with if its clear, then decrease the gear according to whats approaching or not, whilst being on the brake pedal during all of the approach just in case. A constantly smooth braked car is far more stable than one that is'nt & obviously more comfortable for passengers too.
I shant mention passengers falling aspleep & playing G-Meters with their heads
Heel and toe isn't part of the IAM course - no requirement for it. I (almost) never use H&T on road - only when I'm playing or practising and I never find the need. When approaching a roundabout I just brake until I *know* what gear I will need or stop - no problem.
On track, of course, I use H&T for every last change - because they're all happening at the last possible moment and I'm trying to save the valuable tenths of a second that will help me catch the bloke in the GT3 ahead! (I wish)
When I demonstrate driving to the system to Associates I always just drive for a while (without commentary) and I just ask: "Now. Did that feel unnatural or odd whilst we travelled along?" No new Associate has *ever* said "Yes!". They usually comment "Very smooth." or some such thing. Driving to the system can be as natural as breathing and doesn't result in a strange driving style - *eventually*. Its the changeover that's a git.
Preach it, Brother Don. mph999 said:This is kind of how I felt too, so if it is foolish then we're both fools.
2) this may appear really really foolish, but I'm hoping I'm not the only one to feel this way. I find that if I apply the system, I've got to approach a hazard slower than other drivers, brake earlier, and then come off the brake earlier. The trouble is, I feel silly when doing it, almost as if other drivers behind me are thinking "what on earth is she doing". I realise that they system is safe and controlled, but it is obviously slower than the way some drive. How can I apply it, without thinking that those behind me are thinking "tsk tsk, come along now" (or perhaps even worse).
You approach hazards slower, that is the idea of the system to give you time to react.
Other drivers will think this is unusual, so either show brake lights early, or if they are very close, it may justify a "planned" overlap to prevent you from slowing them down more than they may anticipate.
Can I ask for an explanation of "heel and toe" please. What is it exactly, and is it something that you can teach yourself, on the open road.
I know it is to do with braking and applying gas at the same time. Being a woman I can obviously muti-task, although I am surprised that you Gentlemen have managed to do it. How come you can do this, yet not remember to put the toilet seat back down!
Anyway, any explanation would be helpful. I'm not trying to run before I can walk, I'm just interested from a technical point of view.
Regards
Sally
P.S. I've tried to contact Cadence re their commentary DVD. They are not answering the phone. Does anyone know if they are only open at certain times?
I know it is to do with braking and applying gas at the same time. Being a woman I can obviously muti-task, although I am surprised that you Gentlemen have managed to do it. How come you can do this, yet not remember to put the toilet seat back down!
Anyway, any explanation would be helpful. I'm not trying to run before I can walk, I'm just interested from a technical point of view.
Regards
Sally
P.S. I've tried to contact Cadence re their commentary DVD. They are not answering the phone. Does anyone know if they are only open at certain times?
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