RE: IAM issues cornering tip
Friday 17th March 2006
Check your limit pointThe Institute of Advanced Motorists has started producing weekly tips for improving your driving -- including this recent useful one on cornering.
IAM issues cornering tip
Watch your limit point then open up
Check your limit point
Have you ever found yourself braking in a bend simply because it was sharper than you originally thought? If you have then you should consider how you actually go about assessing the severity of bends, because if you get it wrong, the consequences are potentially serious.
It is not just novice drivers who get caught out on the bends though in the jargon, it is here that most "single vehicle accidents" take place.
There are a number of clues we can take from the environment to help us.
The most obvious are the road signs and markings, but there are other less obvious ones: the line of the trees, hedges, buildings, street lights or telegraph poles (although remember that sometimes telegraph poles run through fields, so don't follow them!).
The actual width of the road can be a factor because the narrower it is, the less space you have to manoeuvre. Skid marks on the road are an indication of past mistakes. The position and speed of other traffic can also provide you with valuable information. Another particularly useful way of assessing a bend is to use the “limit point analysis”. The limit point is the furthest point which you can see, i.e. where the left and right hand sides of the road meet. To use this technique simply ask yourself "is it getting further away?" If it is and you can see further ahead, then your speed should be fine. On the other hand if it is getting closer, then you could continue to reduce speed until the "limit point" begins to move with you and your view opens up again.
This technique takes a bit of practice but it will help you to link your speed with your range of vision and allow you to stop in the distance seen to be clear.
More tips on the link below.
Discussion
So join the IAM/ROSPA and get it shown to you! Or do RideDrive...
I have found that its something you look at and struggle with for a while and then, one day, it just snaps into place and you can do it like you'd been doing it your whole life.
Don't forget that if you position the car further to the left on right-handers and further to the right on left handers you can extend your range of vision - effectively moving the limit point further away - which allows faster, safer progress.
I have found that its something you look at and struggle with for a while and then, one day, it just snaps into place and you can do it like you'd been doing it your whole life.
Don't forget that if you position the car further to the left on right-handers and further to the right on left handers you can extend your range of vision - effectively moving the limit point further away - which allows faster, safer progress.
This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that should be taught in driving lessons. I think the current legislation which is setup only to penalise driver for their mistakes rather than encourage them to learn more and be better drivers is wrong.
When I took my tes (admittedly a few years ago!) the instruction emphasis placed on things like parking and "getting through the test". I find it odd that you can take a driving test, luck out and pass then go and drive on a motorway at 70MPH without any sort of driving at safe speed training.
I also think that you should be required to pass some sort of "accident avoidance" test. Involving understanding the dynamics of a skid, FWD, RWD, 4X4 differences etc.
too many people get into a car and just drive round corners knowing nothing about what to do if it gets a bit hairy!
A
When I took my tes (admittedly a few years ago!) the instruction emphasis placed on things like parking and "getting through the test". I find it odd that you can take a driving test, luck out and pass then go and drive on a motorway at 70MPH without any sort of driving at safe speed training.
I also think that you should be required to pass some sort of "accident avoidance" test. Involving understanding the dynamics of a skid, FWD, RWD, 4X4 differences etc.
too many people get into a car and just drive round corners knowing nothing about what to do if it gets a bit hairy!
A
carl_w said:
I've seen this tip before, on here, in the TVRCC mag and in "Roadcraft". I understand the theory, but I just can't seem to see it in practice. Maybe I need someone to show me?
It may just be because it is poorly explained. How I had this explained to me was to find the "limit", or "vanishing" point, and then watch whether it is moving to the left or the right. If you're on a left hand bend and it is moving to the left, then the bend is tightening - moving to the right and it is widening out.
Personally though, I'd guard against relying on this too much. Bends can suddenly tighten after they've widened. A good cornering technique is not to be acclerating and decelerating, rather to be smooth. In the absence of local knowledge, caution is always the best measure.
Also, one needs to think about the unexpected. You may encounter mud on the road, or a cyclist. Around our way two inch deep mud is not uncommon! Or a tractor/combine filling the road, requiring you to come to a dead stop. One of the scariest rides I've had was with a friend who said he knew the road so he could go as fast as he liked. After 2 miles I'd had enough and asked him what he'd do if we met a combine harvester or a deer round the next bend!
The above is something I quite often do - pace myself according to the point where the kerbs on either side meet. Its a good technique, but I'd be against teaching it as part of the standard driving test. There are too many folk on the road that can't think fast enough as it is, and don't need to be getting told one more thing to distract them.
In the end of the day you can't see around the corner, and therefore the best technique to be teaching the general population is Slow Down!
They could also do with teaching folk to do their braking before the corner. I know I've been caught out on the track and thankfully not on the road, but most peoples instincts if they are mid-corner and panic is to pounce on the brakes very severly. Before they know it, they're looking back where they came from!
In the end of the day you can't see around the corner, and therefore the best technique to be teaching the general population is Slow Down!
They could also do with teaching folk to do their braking before the corner. I know I've been caught out on the track and thankfully not on the road, but most peoples instincts if they are mid-corner and panic is to pounce on the brakes very severly. Before they know it, they're looking back where they came from!
cj_eds said:
therefore the best technique to be teaching the general population is Slow Down!
It's a tricky message to get across to ordinary numpties in their tin boxes, but yes, as you say - people just need to be told to slow down. The reason that this is a tricky message is that the average speed of a numpty will probably be lower than an advanced driver, even though the advanced driver is much safer. This means that the numpty doesn't want to slow down, as this would mean doing 35mph everywhere instead of 42mph. This concept of averaging a good speed but being totally safe is alien to the average tin box numpty. Of course, as we all know, a good driver will manage this by driving at a speed appropriate to the conditions and planning ahead. This may mean doing 20mph down a resedendtial street at 3:30pm after schools chuck out, but it will also mean doing 60mph down an open stretch of national speed limit road with good visibility. Just look at the 42mph club for proof - 42mph down a national speed limit straight, 42mph round a blind bend, and 42mph through a crowded 30 limit.
I can't believe that most people in this country are skilled and intelligent enough to fit household plumbing, organise complicated admin tasks, programme computers, or even manage large companies; without having the basic skills needed to have proper control of their cars and drive in an appropriate manner. Truly shocking. Even though we may criticise IAM press releases sometimes, at least the IAM are trying to reach the average numpty and make them think. I wish numpties would listen more, but three cheers to the IAM for trying, and I'm sure some people do listen.
I agree with all that has been said here and I support the IAM as an organisation trying to make using the road a safer and more enjoyable experience. However, with dwindling membership numbers, a stuffy, fuddy-duddy image and recent cuts in government funding I guess the IAM is having to become more pro-active these days in order to survive and that is why they are running this driving tip idea. I am not saying this from a stance of trying to be competitive, as some of my team also do observer work for the IAM, and of course talk about the organisation itself, so I know some of what is going on. If they could only take on a more modern approach, be more appealing to younger drivers and some of their observers and followers get rid of their holier than thou attitude (not talking of the guys we have on board of course) they would become a lot more popular.
For anyone who is interested you can download information on various driving tips in pdf form from our website, including the Limit Point Analysis technique. These are a series of featured articles that are running in the TVR Car Club magazine, but a lot of it makes sense for those who drive different types of car. Click here to see what is available.
www.ridedrive.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=877
Jules
For anyone who is interested you can download information on various driving tips in pdf form from our website, including the Limit Point Analysis technique. These are a series of featured articles that are running in the TVR Car Club magazine, but a lot of it makes sense for those who drive different types of car. Click here to see what is available.
www.ridedrive.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=877
Jules
I know this was discussed at length quite recently, but the article makes the same mistake imo in trying to use the limit point to say whether you should be slowing down or speeding up. That's nonesense IMO. All the limit point technique does is help you judge whether the corner is tightening or opening up at the furthest point you can see. You need to assess how much grip there is, and how far ahead the road is clear, to decide how fast you should be going and then compare that to your initial speed to decide whether to speed up or slow down. To say 'limit point getting nearer means slow down' is misleading and wrong.
GreenV8S said:
To say 'limit point getting nearer means slow down' is misleading and wrong.
Whoa there. I agree with everything up to that point. If your range of vision decreases you must slow down (if necessary) to ensure you can always stop within the distance you can see to be clear... I'm being pedantic...but when we "teach" limit point analysis we do need pithy phrases. Like: "Limit point rushing towards you, slow down, limit point rushing away speed up." and "Limit point rushing to the right or left, road is turning so slow, limit moving to the centre road is straightening speed up." etc etc
Limit point could be getting nearer with no turn in the road...e.g. a crest. Still means you need to slow down.
You are quite right, the road conditions to count for a lot. But have you looked further into it to understand why the Limit Point Analysis works.
If you were to aim your car at a brick wall, and you were told to drive towards it at 50mph, just as a number, but you were to leave it as late as possible before you ‘chickened out’ you would gauge the point at where you applied your brakes by making a subconscious calculation based upon what your eyes were telling you. That sub-conscious calculation would take into account the type of surface you were driving on, the performance of your stopping ability etc, etc.
Where the bend is concerned you would do the same using the road condition as part of your assessment process. It is not wrong in how it is described, as when using it you will always do so in consideration for your environment. If you are thinking enough to use the technique you will be thinking enough to pay attention to the other factors around you as well. It just forms part of a larger thought process.
As Don has quite rightly pointed out, the limit point does not just apply to bends. It applies to every scene that you are presented with on the road. As the view shuts down, so the approach speed much reduce. This is all covered in the downloadable documents related to the link I posted above.
Jules
If you were to aim your car at a brick wall, and you were told to drive towards it at 50mph, just as a number, but you were to leave it as late as possible before you ‘chickened out’ you would gauge the point at where you applied your brakes by making a subconscious calculation based upon what your eyes were telling you. That sub-conscious calculation would take into account the type of surface you were driving on, the performance of your stopping ability etc, etc.
Where the bend is concerned you would do the same using the road condition as part of your assessment process. It is not wrong in how it is described, as when using it you will always do so in consideration for your environment. If you are thinking enough to use the technique you will be thinking enough to pay attention to the other factors around you as well. It just forms part of a larger thought process.
As Don has quite rightly pointed out, the limit point does not just apply to bends. It applies to every scene that you are presented with on the road. As the view shuts down, so the approach speed much reduce. This is all covered in the downloadable documents related to the link I posted above.
Jules
Andy T said:I was taught this in my driving lessons I'd been riding a bike for years so didn't have to worry about getting used to the roads and traffic. Helped that my instructor was an ex police instructor rather than someone who'd seen a "become a driving instructor" ad in the paper.
This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that should be taught in driving lessons.
The standard required to pass needs to be raised significantly to get this sort of skill level taught rather than the current "survive your test" b0llocks.
Don said:
you must slow down (if necessary) to ensure you can always stop within the distance you can see to be clear....
Again pedantic, but using "must" and "if necessary" cancel each other out in this phrase. My thoughts on GreenV8S' comment is that there can quite easily be occasions where the limit point is coming towards you due to a change in bend radius, but your viewing distance could still be large. For instance driving through farmland, you could have a bend where it follows the line of fields, and if the fields are flat and have no fence or hedge boundaries, you could see for miles.
Anyway, I'm all for action like this, where organisations try to teach techniques for improving driving (along as they are applied correctly). But as usual I have to question exactly where these tips are published, because if it's just in motoring publications it's like preaching to the converted.
As we seem to have a group of intelligent people on here at present, and just to put another angle on this, as this subject is connected with driver observation, you know how Police and motoring organisations keep going on about the fact that drivers travel too fast in fog? It is a common complaint, but has anyone really thought as to why people drive too fast in these conditions? Well, let me run this one by you. The main reason people drive so fast in fog is because they actually drive in fog every single day they are on the road, and all the year round. What I mean here is that because their range of observation is so short the fact that they are in fog does not handicap them, as the range of visibility during those conditions is no more than the distance they would look ahead on a sunny day.
I have been in many different situations that fully support this, but no time to list them all here.
Jules
I have been in many different situations that fully support this, but no time to list them all here.
Jules
Stenniso, bl!!dy good point about where this sort of vital advice is being aired. We used to have "public information" slots on the TV, there was one about not using rear fog lights in the rain, ( how many times do you see this these days ? ), another about keeping your wipers in A1 condition, and I think one about stopping distances.
Ride Drive, yeah you are so right, I wonder if there is any correlation between the distance these people look ahead, and the distance from the settee to the TV in their lounge at home !!??.
Only joking, but am I.
vbr CJ
Ride Drive, yeah you are so right, I wonder if there is any correlation between the distance these people look ahead, and the distance from the settee to the TV in their lounge at home !!??.
Only joking, but am I.
vbr CJ
Ride Drive said:
The main reason people drive so fast in fog is because they actually drive in fog every single day they are on the road, and all the year round. What I mean here is that because their range of observation is so short the fact that they are in fog does not handicap them, as the range of visibility during those conditions is no more than the distance they would look ahead on a sunny day.
Jules
A very valid point. I'm an IAM observer, and 90% of the people who attend the course are simply not looking beyond the bonnet of the car. A favoured trick during the first session is to ask the driver what the last road sign they saw was. 90% of the time the answer is "What road sign?"
Of course its necessary!cjbolter said:
Ride Drive, yeah you are so right, I wonder if there is any correlation between the distance these people look ahead, and the distance from the settee to the TV in their lounge at home !!??.
Many regard the view through the windscreen with the same degree of respect as the picture on a television screen, but they are not the one we get to see. The ones that will most benefit from a complete retraining programme we can't reach because they are the ones that believe they won't have anything to gain by some more advanced input.
Jules
>> Edited by Ride Drive on Friday 17th March 16:16
>> Edited by Ride Drive on Friday 17th March 16:18
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff