Double overtakes and "staying out"
Discussion
With reference to my recent thread (we can discuss too if you like 
)
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=250900&f=23&h=0
How to people feel about "staying out" when overtaking. By that I mean, using my example above, You are following two cars. The First car number 1 is travelling slowly. You are third behind car two. Car two pulls out to overtake, you check it is safe and follow, now assuming that you have done all you plannig and observation, you can see it to be clear ahead, you stay out as car 2 pulls back in and continue to overtake "killing two birds with one stone". I am sure that I have been taught this and even done it a lot. However I came unstuck last night when car number 2 realised what I was up to and carried on accelerating nearly causing an incident.
Should you wait to check (either staying out or coming back in) the progress of car 2 in front before carrying on?
Discuss?
Cheers,
Steve
) www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=250900&f=23&h=0
How to people feel about "staying out" when overtaking. By that I mean, using my example above, You are following two cars. The First car number 1 is travelling slowly. You are third behind car two. Car two pulls out to overtake, you check it is safe and follow, now assuming that you have done all you plannig and observation, you can see it to be clear ahead, you stay out as car 2 pulls back in and continue to overtake "killing two birds with one stone". I am sure that I have been taught this and even done it a lot. However I came unstuck last night when car number 2 realised what I was up to and carried on accelerating nearly causing an incident.
Should you wait to check (either staying out or coming back in) the progress of car 2 in front before carrying on?
Discuss?
Cheers,
Steve
It's reasonably forseeable that a car which has just completed an overtake and has clear road in front will continue to accelerate. You certainly can't rely on him coasting just to let you go past, he has no idea how fast you want to go and having you in front means that you may end up holding *him* up once you are all up to cruising speed. That's setting aside any silly competitive urges. If you relied on him letting you past and he didn't, I'd say that was your fault. However, in situations where there is no doubt that you are going to end up wanting to go faster then him, and where you have sufficient performance advantage to be able to pass him safely in the distance available, I don't see anything wrong with staying out and overtaking him. You do need to be aware that he will be accelerating though which will prolong the overtake.
Fat Audi 80 said:
How to people feel about "staying out" when overtaking.
No problem at all.
Fat Audi 80 said:
However I came unstuck last night when car number 2 realised what I was up to and carried on accelerating nearly causing an incident.
I would have remained in a contact position, offside if safe, until veh 2 had settled down , then made a decision.
Fat Audi 80 said:
Should you wait to check (either staying out or coming back in) the progress of car 2 in front before carrying on?
Absolutely, Roadcraft tells you this, bear in mind the vehicle about to be overtaken and their driving style, they've already demonstrated they are progressive, and are under no obligation to slow down having completed their overtake to assist you, in fact some bloody minded drivers will do just the opposite.
GreenV8S said:
It's reasonably forseeable that a car which has just completed an overtake and has clear road in front will continue to accelerate. You certainly can't rely on him coasting just to let you go past, he has no idea how fast you want to go and having you in front means that you may end up holding *him* up once you are all up to cruising speed. That's setting aside any silly competitive urges. If you relied on him letting you past and he didn't, I'd say that was your fault. However, in situations where there is no doubt that you are going to end up wanting to go faster then him, and where you have sufficient performance advantage to be able to pass him safely in the distance available, I don't see anything wrong with staying out and overtaking him. You do need to be aware that he will be accelerating though which will prolong the overtake.
Would say that the fact that he continued to accelerate was not your fault, it would depend on your actions to this, did you try and out accelerate him, or just drop back behind, or did he only accelerate when you were someway past him?
Martin
omegac said:
they've already demonstrated they are progressive, and are under no obligation to slow down having completed their overtake to assist you, in fact some bloody minded drivers will do just the opposite.
I think this is the key point, they may will be a 'spirited driver' at which point staying out can cause a problem. As has been said earlier making a judgment before you proceed is probally the best option. The type of car they are in/ your car, speed etc. To be honest everytime I have done a 'double overtake' I always end up travelling faster than intended.
Phil Dicky said:
they've already demonstrated they are progressive, and are under no obligation to slow down having completed their overtake to assist you, in fact some bloody minded drivers will do just the opposite.
I think this is the key point, they may will be a 'spirited driver' at which point staying out can cause a problem. As has been said earlier making a judgment before you proceed is probally the best option. The type of car they are in/ your car, speed etc. To be honest everytime I have done a 'double overtake' I always end up travelling faster than intended.
All valid points, but on occassion, you only find out when you try and overtake ...
As mentioned, some people will accelerate, just as you pass them.
M
I don't agree with your summary of the incident. From what I can see Mondeo man was minding his own business and doing his own thing, and it wasn't him that caused the problem.
From reading your two posts, it seems you couldn't have known what speed the Mondeo was going to travel at. I have no problem at all with a double overtake, but you should have been prepared to wait a slighjt moment to see what speed the Mondeo was going to do having passeed the slow car. As it was, you didn't wait, and you got yourself into a situation that was difficult to get out of.
Put it this way. If you (or I) were driving the Mondeo, we both possibly want to go as quickly as conditions allow. Therefore, what would we have done different to him? We both would have accelerated as quickly as possible. We neither can control what a driover of another car is going to do, so leave it up to him.
I probably would ease off to let you pass once it was clear you able (and very determined) to do so, but I wouldn't have been happy. I would have judged from your poor (sorry to say this, no offence etc) overtake that here is a driver I'm not sure I want in front of me 'cos I think he will hold me up very soon after he's overtaken me.
I'd also go so far as to say that: Mondeos are driven by reps. Reps don't hang about like the average numpty, they're usually experienced and they're very good at making progress, and as I follow him in the overtake I would have been looking to see if he's going to get a move on and fall in behind.
If you will excuse me for saying so, I don't agree with you when you say in the other thread that "Mondeo mans sees this and continues to accelerate." If you'll forgive me, that is how the lesser experienced driver thinks, and its very often just not the case. He may not have seen you, he couldn't have known you would be so determined in your overtake, and he owes you nothing, like I say he is doing his own thing at his own speed as he's entitled.
Another thing I would add is, and this is possibly towards you advanced guys as a whole, once you have done your overtake, at the next lower speed restriction, you guys will stick to the limit. The car you have overtaken may not wish to, which means you will be holding up the car you have just overtaken. Thats not good driving, IMO. If you've overtaken somebody, it would be really poor form to then hold him up.
From reading your two posts, it seems you couldn't have known what speed the Mondeo was going to travel at. I have no problem at all with a double overtake, but you should have been prepared to wait a slighjt moment to see what speed the Mondeo was going to do having passeed the slow car. As it was, you didn't wait, and you got yourself into a situation that was difficult to get out of.
Put it this way. If you (or I) were driving the Mondeo, we both possibly want to go as quickly as conditions allow. Therefore, what would we have done different to him? We both would have accelerated as quickly as possible. We neither can control what a driover of another car is going to do, so leave it up to him.
I probably would ease off to let you pass once it was clear you able (and very determined) to do so, but I wouldn't have been happy. I would have judged from your poor (sorry to say this, no offence etc) overtake that here is a driver I'm not sure I want in front of me 'cos I think he will hold me up very soon after he's overtaken me.
I'd also go so far as to say that: Mondeos are driven by reps. Reps don't hang about like the average numpty, they're usually experienced and they're very good at making progress, and as I follow him in the overtake I would have been looking to see if he's going to get a move on and fall in behind.
If you will excuse me for saying so, I don't agree with you when you say in the other thread that "Mondeo mans sees this and continues to accelerate." If you'll forgive me, that is how the lesser experienced driver thinks, and its very often just not the case. He may not have seen you, he couldn't have known you would be so determined in your overtake, and he owes you nothing, like I say he is doing his own thing at his own speed as he's entitled.
Another thing I would add is, and this is possibly towards you advanced guys as a whole, once you have done your overtake, at the next lower speed restriction, you guys will stick to the limit. The car you have overtaken may not wish to, which means you will be holding up the car you have just overtaken. Thats not good driving, IMO. If you've overtaken somebody, it would be really poor form to then hold him up.
Stay out by all means -- there's just no point committing to the overtake until you know what is going on.
Stay out -- you'll have much better visibility and he will know you are there. He is likely to be pressing on so let him settle and then use your view to see whether you should drop back in or continue for a second go.
Stay out -- you'll have much better visibility and he will know you are there. He is likely to be pressing on so let him settle and then use your view to see whether you should drop back in or continue for a second go.
7db said:
Stay out by all means -- there's just no point committing to the overtake until you know what is going on.
Stay out -- you'll have much better visibility and he will know you are there. He is likely to be pressing on so let him settle and then use your view to see whether you should drop back in or continue for a second go.
Yep, spot on. Thats a situation I've been in many times myself, you follow a car past a slower one, then stay out while you see what he's going to do, then elect to either overtake or drop in behind.
heebeegeetee said:
Another thing I would add is, and this is possibly towards you advanced guys as a whole, once you have done your overtake, at the next lower speed restriction, you guys will stick to the limit. The car you have overtaken may not wish to, which means you will be holding up the car you have just overtaken. Thats not good driving, IMO. If you've overtaken somebody, it would be really poor form to then hold him up.
Not sure I agree with this last paragraph. If you have spotted a posted speed limit in the distance, then yes, by all means abort as you may upset the person you are planning to overtake by having to immediately come back in under braking, but I can't see being criticised if (a) you are not aware there are 30's a mile down the road, or (b) for holding someone up by entering a speed restriction and sticking to it.
omegac said:
(b) for holding someone up by entering a speed restriction and sticking to it.
Obviously you won't take action to prevent them from passing, and if they are making more progress than you are (because you are limited by the speed limt and they are not) you would encourage them to pass.
Galling though it may be.
I've been in exactly the same situation before - it's definitely a 'battle of egos' thing
the ocassion I'm remembering saw us both accelerate up to 'inappropriate' speeds - the guy was clearly intent on keeping me out
it's fine if you've enough power to comfortably shove past, but if you haven't there's no point in this kind of thing at all - if it happened to me again, I'd back off a pull in behind as soon as I'd figured out what the other bod was up to
the ocassion I'm remembering saw us both accelerate up to 'inappropriate' speeds - the guy was clearly intent on keeping me out
it's fine if you've enough power to comfortably shove past, but if you haven't there's no point in this kind of thing at all - if it happened to me again, I'd back off a pull in behind as soon as I'd figured out what the other bod was up to
Thanks guys, and it is all very constuctive stuff and given me a good mirror for actions:
Like all these things you can feel differently upon reflection.
1.) I have (again) learnt from the experience and believe the key to becoming a good driver is to have an open mind and constantly try and improve. I don't believe you can learn advanced driving techniques without either trying things and making some mistakes.
However, next time I try a similar sort of thing, I will chose my overtakee more carefully and hang about a bit longer to gather more information before going past
If I am honest I did "commit" very early possibly too early and did not anticipate the reaction of the other driver. I fully expected him to cruise at 70, or 80 not 110 but there you go.
I also believe I got into a battle of wills that with hindsight I definitely should of backed down from.
Cheers,
Steve
>> Edited by Fat Audi 80 on Sunday 12th March 19:11
Like all these things you can feel differently upon reflection.
1.) I have (again) learnt from the experience and believe the key to becoming a good driver is to have an open mind and constantly try and improve. I don't believe you can learn advanced driving techniques without either trying things and making some mistakes.
However, next time I try a similar sort of thing, I will chose my overtakee more carefully and hang about a bit longer to gather more information before going past
If I am honest I did "commit" very early possibly too early and did not anticipate the reaction of the other driver. I fully expected him to cruise at 70, or 80 not 110 but there you go.
I also believe I got into a battle of wills that with hindsight I definitely should of backed down from.
Cheers,
Steve
>> Edited by Fat Audi 80 on Sunday 12th March 19:11
heebeegeetee said:
Another thing I would add is, and this is possibly towards you advanced guys as a whole, once you have done your overtake, at the next lower speed restriction, you guys will stick to the limit. The car you have overtaken may not wish to, which means you will be holding up the car you have just overtaken. Thats not good driving, IMO. If you've overtaken somebody, it would be really poor form to then hold him up.
I'm not really sure what you are getting at here but it sounds like you are criticising those drivers who vary their speed according to the prevailing conditions.
I'll happily maintain maximum progress on a NSL A or B road, but will adhere strictly to the 30/40/50 zones (and no faster than 85 on a motorway) - If that means that a car I have recently overtaken catches me up then so be it.
Unless I misunderstood the point you were makimg.
>> Edited by ipsg.glf on Monday 13th March 11:44
ipsg.glf said:
Another thing I would add is, and this is possibly towards you advanced guys as a whole, once you have done your overtake, at the next lower speed restriction, you guys will stick to the limit. The car you have overtaken may not wish to, which means you will be holding up the car you have just overtaken. Thats not good driving, IMO. If you've overtaken somebody, it would be really poor form to then hold him up.
I'm not really sure what you are getting at here but it sounds like you are criticising those drivers who vary their speed according to the prevailing conditions.
I'll happily maintain maximum progress on a NSL A or B road, but will adhere strictly to the 30/40/50 zones (and no faster than 85 on a motorway) - If that means that a car I have recently overtaken catches me up then so be it.
Unless I misunderstood the point you were makimg.
>> Edited by ipsg.glf on Monday 13th March 11:44
I agree, but would actually travel a little faster on the motorway. I think you have a hard time being an advanced driver really (although you do have a choice, that is true.) If you are happy to follow the 40mph everywhere merchants then fine. However, I do like to make progress when in NSL territory but will obey the 30mph limit almost to the letter of the law, which is when 40everywherenumpty will catch you up and have to sit behind you. It always amusing though when they disappear into the distance again as soon as the NSL sign lights up!
I highlight the original point by hbgt, i actually did that exact thing whilst on advanced driving lesson approaching a 30 limit but still in NSL. I was with a serving police officer and he said the move I made to overtake at the end of the NSL was perfectly acceptable and having given the car i had overtaken room before I pulled back in they would then just have to wait behind while I sat at thirty though the next stretch. The advantange is once out the other side and in NSL again you can make progress unhindered....
Cheers,
Steve
A quick word from my book of experience -- when you are looking for the second overtake and scanning a mile out for the thirty limt and waiting for number one overtaker to settle -- don't forget to check your mirror.
It's really really easy to get suckered into investing all £10 of your concentration on the car in front and the situation developing there -- and not notice the biker who is going for the triple overtake...
It's really really easy to get suckered into investing all £10 of your concentration on the car in front and the situation developing there -- and not notice the biker who is going for the triple overtake...
heebeegeetee said:Trouble is, if you're not familiar with the road how are you to know there is a 30 limit around the corner? Having said that, I do feel a twinge of worry whenever this happens - will the driver try a risky overtake in a village 30 limit for example?
Another thing I would add is, and this is possibly towards you advanced guys as a whole, once you have done your overtake, at the next lower speed restriction, you guys will stick to the limit. The car you have overtaken may not wish to, which means you will be holding up the car you have just overtaken. Thats not good driving, IMO. If you've overtaken somebody, it would be really poor form to then hold him up.
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