misconception about IAM??

[Miles_stylus]

I have been put off going for IAM by some preconceptions, namely that the IAM is more about adherance to a code involving shuffelling (sic) your hands around the wheel (goodness only knows why as if this was the fastest / best way of moving the ting around surly we would see rally drivers etc using it??), driving within the national speed limit and generally acting "within the law".


I want / need to improve my skills however I need to improve: observation, skid control - basically how to go fast safely rather than how to stay within the law safely.

Now I know (on some level) that this is wrong however what "reasurance" can you offer me as IAM will take a lot of time etc to sort out?

Thanks

Miles

[Parrot of Doom]

You won't learn skid control on an IAM course.

I thought the same as you, but the advantages (anticipation, observation, gear selection) easily outweigh the pipe and slippers argument. You'll find yourself a much better driver once you've done the course.

[markmullen]

The fact that quite a few if us on here are IAM members (and quite a few of us Observers) should give you some reassurance about what the IAM course involves.

I will be honest, when I saw the tiny announcement in our local paper about an IAM open evening I was in two minds, I too had the perception of a load of flat hat wearing wheel shufflers being stuffy about sports cars and young people. When I actually met the group I realised that if you are enthusiastic enough about driving to spend your own time improving it then the likelihood of you conforming to the stereotype is minimal.

My driving has improved since I took the test (and moreso since I took my Observers test) but I will be honest enough to say that I don't always drive to the IAM standard at all times, particularly if it is quiet and road and traffic conditions are good

With any training course there will be good bits and bad bits, you just have to cherry pick the bits that work for you. My Observer had owned Mustangs and Corvettes in the 60s and was obviously not afraid of giving it the boot when conditions allow. He was also a very good trainer and I learnt a lot.

[AquilaEagle]

I think it very much depends on your local group.

Given my experience with my local group (NW London and Chilterns) (8 months and still no observer, spoke to some old woman on the phone), and hearing other things from someone else, I think if I were to do it over again I would just do RoSPA.

I'm now getting some observation (had my first today) from someone I've met through here on PH. I'll probably end up doing the IAM test without ever meeting anyone from my local group!

[RSPete]

I am now a freshly qualified driving instructor, I am only 25Yrs old and have always driven fast cars and have full no claims, I thought I was a good driver until I started learning for my Part 2 which is a driving test to a very high standard, you are allowed 6 very minor faults and only has a pass rate of 24%. By doing an advanced driving test you will find you will read the road ahead alot further than what you do already, looking out for potential hazards and will be a much safer driver through defensive driving by this i mean holding back a little bit more and using better observations.
At the end of the day, gone are the days when you can just drive around fast, the roads we drive on in britain are full of people who dont know what they are doing and dont look any further than the car they are following.

Pete

[TripleS]

RSPete said:

I am now a freshly qualified driving instructor, I am only 25Yrs old and have always driven fast cars and have full no claims, I thought I was a good driver until I started learning for my Part 2 which is a driving test to a very high standard, you are allowed 6 very minor faults and only has a pass rate of 24%. By doing an advanced driving test you will find you will read the road ahead alot further than what you do already, looking out for potential hazards and will be a much safer driver through defensive driving by this i mean holding back a little bit more and using better observations. At the end of the day, gone are the days when you can just drive around fast, the roads we drive on in britain are full of people who dont know what they are doing and dont look any further than the car they are following. Pete

Opportunities for driving fairly fast can still be found quite readily. It's simply a matter of recognising suitable conditions and then making sure you do it right. Of course you need to be defensive in your driving, and you must make allowances for drivers of widely varying ability, but I don't reckon things are as bad as some people would have you believe.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[hanse cronje]

perhaps you should consider a private course with one of the companies that have the banner adverts or are referred to in postings, they offer performance driving, handling courses and the like. Appear to be able to mix and match and tailor the course to what you want


edit for spelling - dunce

>> Edited by hanse cronje on Sunday 12th February 15:37

[CombeMarshal]

I agree with the Shuffling thing!

By far the best way to become an outstanding driver is to do a big bike test, They drum so much into you that can be applied to cars plus it helps you understand the mentality of Bikers.

[Nick_Chim]

As others have said it does vary group to group, area to area - this is a by-product of us observers being volunteers and the groups operating semi-independently rather than all being clones. I do get frustrated by sweeping generalisations made (here and elsewhere) about group organisation or standard of guidance, based on a single point of experience. Vive la differance!

If you want to be sure of getting good training, go to a professional and pay £hundreds. For an £85 investment with IAM, you get a good chance of reasonable improvement and an independent view (or views) on your driving. You then take all of this into account and decide for yourself what bits you continue to do and which bits don't work for you. I challenge anyone who has done the course to say they learned nothing or even didn't get their money's worth.

Picking up on a couple of your specific questions:
The IAM 'course' is not about "going fast safely", it is about driving appropriately for the conditions, vehicle and ability - making progress where appropriate. If you use the system as proposed, this can be a sound basis to build performance driving from.

As to "within the law" it is expected that you have the level of control of your vehicle to be able to comply with applicable laws and regulations - hence you will fail the test if you break the law. This doesn't mean a slavish adherence to the law, but for a well trained driver, it will be a conscious act to choose to break the law, based on the prevailing conditions and knowing the penalties if caught.

Don't get me started about wheel shuffling - I've just spent a morning correcting someone's assumptions of what is expected of pull-push steering! If done *correctly*, I challenge anyone to get a road car safely from lock to lock by another method quicker (race/rally cars have bugger all lock, so other methods are more appropriate). If done badly it is shuffling and useless.

Re-reading this, it seems become a bit ranty - apologies, it wasn't intended as such - hope it helps as a personal view from a practicing observer in what I believe to be non-cloth cap group.

>> Edited by Nick_Chim on Sunday 12th February 17:42

[GarryM]

Nick_Chim said:

Don't get me started about wheel shuffling - I've just spent a morning correcting someone's assumptions of what is expected of pull-push steering! If done *correctly*, I challenge anyone to get a road car safely from lock to lock by another method quicker (race/rally cars have bugger all lock, so other methods are more appropriate). If done badly it is shuffling and useless.

I'm not going to argue with you but I've never quite understood why pull-push is used in exercises requiring significant steering inputs. Rotational steering is in the book so why don't they do that? By turning the wheel and replacing your hands in the same position (the wheel having turned through one whole revolution) you are basically using the same technique used by track and rally drivers who surely must have developed the best technique? I can see the point of pull-push in other situations even if I find it unnatural to move my hands from quarter to three.

[StressedDave]

GarryM said:

Nick_Chim said: Don't get me started about wheel shuffling - I've just spent a morning correcting someone's assumptions of what is expected of pull-push steering! If done *correctly*, I challenge anyone to get a road car safely from lock to lock by another method quicker (race/rally cars have bugger all lock, so other methods are more appropriate). If done badly it is shuffling and useless. I'm not going to argue with you but I've never quite understood why pull-push is used in exercises requiring significant steering inputs. Rotational steering is in the book so why don't they do that? By turning the wheel and replacing your hands in the same position (the wheel having turned through one whole revolution) you are basically using the same technique used by track and rally drivers who surely must have developed the best technique? I can see the point of pull-push in other situations even if I find it unnatural to move my hands from quarter to three.

As a non-member, I can't speak for the IAM, but the advantage of pull-push (or push-pull if you've gone ice driving with Volvo in Sweden) is that you get a relatively constant rate of steering - which can have certain advantages in car control. With rotational steering you tend to have more of a stop-start profile to your steering input. (Not least the fact that jerk - the rate of change of acceleration - is directly proportional to the rate of turning the wheel and the human body is very sensitive to jerk). As for the speed of steering - I doubt it and frankly it's not an argument I ever consider worth pursuing.

The problem I see with pull-push is some people's interpretation (and as Nick points out, every group is autonomous and thus the 'gospel according to the IAM' is interpreted differently as a result) of when it is appropriate. I get a few clients who have been down the IAM route and often their steering is 'unnatural' as they are forcing their hands to pull-push because that is what they think they should be doing. I don't do that much pull-push these days, except when manoeuvring, but then I don't think much about how I steer.

[mefoster]

StressedDave said:

I don't do that much pull-push these days, except when manoeuvring, but then I don't think much about how I steer.

Interesting... I find that I am completely the opposite. I will use fixed-input for "cornering" out on the open road, pull-push for "turning a corner" such as at a junction (or anywhere that requires more lock than fixed-input really) and I will only use rotational steering when manoeuvring at low speeds in car-parks etc. Like Dave, I really don't think much about steering. This is just what feels most natural to me.

One thing that I was told once was, "If you can't steer quickly enough using pull-push, you're going too fast." I guess there is some element of truth in there.

[mph999]

Very simple - if you want to drive fast, drive smoothly (yep, it's actually true).

IAM or similar will teach this so at the end as a "smoother" driver you will have the ability to drive fast.

If you drive within the law or not is your choice, but advanced training will give you some of the skills this requires.

Martin

[Miles_stylus]

thanks all for your replies. Taking on board the comments (Eaglex2, Nick_Chim) does anyone have an experience/views on the group(s) around Swindon and Reading?

I am indeed going to be going on "professional" courses (notably Andy Walsh and Plans Motorsport in the next few months) to learn something of what my car can technically do however I was also looking to see what the IAM could do for me. I have to admit that if I hit the "preception" approach that will turn be off the whole thing

I am a little worried by Nick_Chims comment around "within the law" meaning an utter lack of flexibility on the law - this means then that doing more the 60 in the national speed limit areas = fail which seems a little odd given the real world basis I thought was meant to underpin the IAM. The second sentence in that paragraph Nick was slightly odd as unless you just allow your speed to drift over the limit with no thought I would have thought that most people who speed have made a decision to do so - though I totally accept that many/most may not have read the conditions correctly. Is this an IAM "weasel" wording to get around the "pushing on" situation which one hears advanced motorcyclists talking about? By the way no rant taken Nick! One other thing Nick - when I said "going fast safely" I actually meant this - after all any nutter can go fast (and there are times when we all choose to do so) what I want to be able to do is a) do it technically well so that I am maximising the cars performance for the given technical situation b) do it safely i.e. in the correct time and place with maximum consideration to others and all of safety. If the IAM can't help with at least the second part of this and preferably the first I can't see the point Reading many of the comments on the thread suggest that it can so I'm willing to look into it further.

I am hoping that the IAM will be able to teach me to be more observant, read the road better and guess what people are going to do faster. It would be a bonus if I get smoother and visibly better at car control.

How much time does this take out of your life? I'm guessing that observed drives etc are not 15 min wonders...?

Thanks for not flaming me

[Mark_SV]

Hi Miles,

Great that you're so keen to improve. I was formerly very involved with the IAM organisation, so will add my two penneth ...

The IAM can significantly improve your observation, hazard awareness and management, and even handling. You would certainly learn from an IAM course and the Skills for Life program is great value for money.

However, in your case, I'd recommend a couple of sessions with someone like www.ridedrive.co.uk/ or StressedDave (Cadence). Both of whom I can personally recommend very highly. From what you've posted, these folks would meet your needs far better than the IAM. Horses for courses and all that. Moreover, there are differences between circuit driving and roadcraft. Someone like Cadence could teach you both and coach you to bridge the gap between the two skill sets.

Check out:
www.cadence.co.uk/
www.ridedrive.co.uk/do-hp-onp.htm
www.hpc.org.uk

I'd agree with the advice to learn to ride a bike too So much more fun than a car

PS Have you read Roadcraft yet? www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0113408587/qid=1140286358/sr=8-7/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i7_xgl/202-1147481-7892619


>> Edited by Mark_SV on Saturday 18th February 18:47

[Nick_Chim]

Sorry for the delay in responding, been out of circ for a few days.... taking your specifics in turn

Miles_stylus said:

thanks all for your replies. Taking on board the comments (Eaglex2, Nick_Chim) does anyone have an experience/views on the group(s) around Swindon and Reading?

afraid not, I'm a midlands man myself.

Miles_stylus said:

I am a little worried by Nick_Chims comment around "within the law" meaning an utter lack of flexibility on the law - this means then that doing more the 60 in the national speed limit areas = fail which seems a little odd given the real world basis I thought was meant to underpin the IAM.

No road safety organisation - which the IAM clearly is (addressing the "education" element of the three "E"s - education, engineering & enforcement) can condone breaking the law of the land. In practice, it will be down to specific observers' and examiners' personal views, but the majority will be fairly hardline on 30s, 40s, 50s and a little more flexible on 60s and 70s, but to reiterate it's a mode that you can switch into and keep within the law; if you choose to apply the skills learnt at higher speeds (btw where they are much more applicable IMHO ) in your own time, then it's your own call.

Miles_stylus said:

The second sentence in that paragraph Nick was slightly odd as unless you just allow your speed to drift over the limit with no thought I would have thought that most people who speed have made a decision to do so - though I totally accept that many/most may not have read the conditions correctly. Is this an IAM "weasel" wording to get around the "pushing on" situation which one hears advanced motorcyclists talking about?

It's actually my own, rather than any corporate IAM weaseling , but my examiner 8 years ago used words similar to the first sentence to explain what he was looking for; I tend to use the second sentence to explain my own personal views on speed - if you choose to break the law, you should do so knowingly of the consequences if caught. Take your licence in your hand, and make your own judgements!
You'd be surprised how many people *do* "just allow their speed to drift over the limit with no thought" - if you don't, then I guess you're already half way there!

Miles_stylus said:

One other thing Nick - when I said "going fast safely" I actually meant this - after all any nutter can go fast (and there are times when we all choose to do so) what I want to be able to do is a) do it technically well so that I am maximising the cars performance for the given technical situation b) do it safely i.e. in the correct time and place with maximum consideration to others and all of safety.

I guess this is where IAM policy and your expectations deviate and a professional (eg ride-drive / Cadence) course would suit better - IAM will teach you the basics within the law, but frankly most of the (car) observers will have little or no experience of 'pressing on' much beyond that. Bike Observers are a different matter, because as a population they tend to correlate more to sports car drivers in their attitude to speed than average drivers - they mostly do have experience of 'pressing on'.
So, the IAM course should get you thinking about what to do when (eg get it all done before the corner; reading the road (eg visual limit point); positioning (eg entry / exit - for view and best route through the corner); observation and anticipation (eg no surprises); smoothness and acceleration sense (eg ease/squeeze). All of these things together can be then developed by you to apply to higher speeds if you so choose, but unless you are expert in all of those things, then the IAM course is an inexpensive way of getting help to develop them.
On the converse, I found that a professional session was an expensive way of telling me that I was doing (mostly) the right things... it all depends on your instructor!

Miles_stylus said:

How much time does this take out of your life? I'm guessing that observed drives etc are not 15 min wonders...?

Drives can vary from an hour long to 2+ (I've a bit of a reputation for being a 'long run' observer!) and most people do 6-8 sessions before the test.

>> Edited by Nick_Chim on Sunday 19th February 22:28

[Kinky]

Miles_stylus said:

does anyone have an experience/views on the group(s) around Swindon and Reading?

I'm a member of the Thames Valley Group - centred in Windsor/Maidenhead.

And you've got Don - a very active member/Observer of the Basingstoke group.

Might be worth having a word or 2 with Don if Basingstoke is not too far for you.

K