Emergency steering with pull push
Discussion
I've been a quarter-to-three rotational steering person since day one of my driving career. However recently I have been practising pull-push to see if it is a better method for road driving.
So far, I like the balanced posture, and less physical exersion required using pull-push, not to mention the airbag issue. However, I wonder how to determine the actual orientation of the wheel during skid situations to prevent over/under-correction. With rotational steering, this hasn't been an issue for me, even under extreme lock-to-lock situations. But with pull-push, I find myself losing the orientation of the wheel very easily, even at low speeds.
I have read in some places, that you should revert to rotational steering in emergencies, but how can you do this? It seems extremely awkward to attempt rotational steering, if both my hands are in the 5 or 6 o'clock area of the steering wheel (often the case during right-hand turns at medium-sized junctions).
So far, I like the balanced posture, and less physical exersion required using pull-push, not to mention the airbag issue. However, I wonder how to determine the actual orientation of the wheel during skid situations to prevent over/under-correction. With rotational steering, this hasn't been an issue for me, even under extreme lock-to-lock situations. But with pull-push, I find myself losing the orientation of the wheel very easily, even at low speeds.
I have read in some places, that you should revert to rotational steering in emergencies, but how can you do this? It seems extremely awkward to attempt rotational steering, if both my hands are in the 5 or 6 o'clock area of the steering wheel (often the case during right-hand turns at medium-sized junctions).
You could try taking your hand beyond the 12 o'clock position before start to pull-push. I'd never want to be in a situation where my hands are at the 6 o'clock position in the middle of a corner.
In any case, don't get hung up about what you should and shoudn't be doing with the steering wheel. IME in an emergency most people steer without thinking (which is probably the best thing to do!)
In any case, don't get hung up about what you should and shoudn't be doing with the steering wheel. IME in an emergency most people steer without thinking (which is probably the best thing to do!)
It's hard to explain, but I use completely different steering techniques in different situations. Driving the TVR I mainly keep my hands fixed relative to the wheel. On the road some tight corners require more lock than I can conveniently apply like this so I use shuffle steering to adjust my hands during the start and end of the corner. On track very few corners are tight enough to require this and I just use a fixed hand position. The reason this works for me is that I know my car is prone to oversteer but very rarely understeers without provocation, so what is important for me is to be able to straighten the steering and apply opposite lock very quickly. The fixed hand position enables me to do this. In extreme situations I need more opposite lock than I can apply using a fixed grip so I revert to rotational steering to apply and remove extra turns of opposite lock if necessary. In other cars with slower steering and less risk of sudden oversteer I use conventional push-pull steering all the time.
What ever technique you use, if you need to turn the wheel quickly in the heat of the moment just turn the wheel without thinking about it, I think most people will revert to rotational steering if it comes to it.
What ever technique you use, if you need to turn the wheel quickly in the heat of the moment just turn the wheel without thinking about it, I think most people will revert to rotational steering if it comes to it.
StressedDave said:Indeed. And, further, you need to remember that the various techniques are not mutually exclusive. You do not have to pick one and stick with it. Ergo, in a skid situation it is probably better to revert to rotational steering.
In any case, don't get hung up about what you should and shoudn't be doing with the steering wheel. IME in an emergency most people steer without thinking (which is probably the best thing to do!)
There have been near-fanatical religious debates about which is best, to which my response is "best for what?", because all have their strengths and weaknesses. So choose the one whose strength matches the given situation.
Edit: And also what Pete said, who slipped his post in whilst I was typing mine.
>> Edited by JonRB on Saturday 12th November 13:32
Aggree with last two posts.
Generally, if you have to think what type of steering is best, it would be too late. If somthing un-expected crops up, chances are you will react in a reflex type manner, and will automatically do whats best/quickest for that situation.
Keeping both hands on the wheel is difficult in a road car because of the gearing of the steering. A race car is much more sensitive, so both hands can stay on the wheel 99% of the time. As was stated earlier, you dont want to get caught having to wind on some more lock mid-corner if your hands are allready at six o'clock or even crossed.
James.
Generally, if you have to think what type of steering is best, it would be too late. If somthing un-expected crops up, chances are you will react in a reflex type manner, and will automatically do whats best/quickest for that situation.
Keeping both hands on the wheel is difficult in a road car because of the gearing of the steering. A race car is much more sensitive, so both hands can stay on the wheel 99% of the time. As was stated earlier, you dont want to get caught having to wind on some more lock mid-corner if your hands are allready at six o'clock or even crossed.
James.
Thanks for the replies, however...
I'm not talking about having to think which steering is best, during an emergency. Quite obviously, the reaction should be reflexive.
The actual question is, how effective is the reflexive action, if you're trained or accustomed to using one of the two techniques (ie. pull-push, or rotational/hand-over-hand)?
(As an aside, I also have difficulty in understanding why some people believe you'll be in trouble with rotational steering when applying more lock? Just put the less dominant hand over the dominant hand and keep steering. This is a very smooth action, not worse than swapping hands at 6 or 12 o'clock in pull-push, if timed right.)
>> Edited by Jungles on Sunday 13th November 22:08
I'm not talking about having to think which steering is best, during an emergency. Quite obviously, the reaction should be reflexive.
The actual question is, how effective is the reflexive action, if you're trained or accustomed to using one of the two techniques (ie. pull-push, or rotational/hand-over-hand)?
(As an aside, I also have difficulty in understanding why some people believe you'll be in trouble with rotational steering when applying more lock? Just put the less dominant hand over the dominant hand and keep steering. This is a very smooth action, not worse than swapping hands at 6 or 12 o'clock in pull-push, if timed right.)
>> Edited by Jungles on Sunday 13th November 22:08
A very interesting thread
I've often driven cars with slow steering on track (the NSX is a classic example - or any road car to be honest), and I've found that even once I have to start feeding the wheel (i.e. when my arms cross), it is like 20% of your brain is keeping an eye on the wheel and remembering where straight ahead is. I race using quarter to three, and always use this on the road unless I know my arms will cross; but on those occasions where I have had to feed the wheel on track (i.e. your arms cross and you need more lock fast) this 'memory' thing seems to work very well for me.
I've heard that John Lyons uses 'classic' push pull for oversteer correction. All I can say is that you'd have to be very fast at it - especially when unwinding the lock (911 at speed?!!). I have to do big sweeps of push pull to keep up in a slide!
I've often driven cars with slow steering on track (the NSX is a classic example - or any road car to be honest), and I've found that even once I have to start feeding the wheel (i.e. when my arms cross), it is like 20% of your brain is keeping an eye on the wheel and remembering where straight ahead is. I race using quarter to three, and always use this on the road unless I know my arms will cross; but on those occasions where I have had to feed the wheel on track (i.e. your arms cross and you need more lock fast) this 'memory' thing seems to work very well for me.
I've heard that John Lyons uses 'classic' push pull for oversteer correction. All I can say is that you'd have to be very fast at it - especially when unwinding the lock (911 at speed?!!). I have to do big sweeps of push pull to keep up in a slide!
With regard to quarter to three vs push pull for road driving, here are my thoughts:
* Quarter to three means that your hands are on a diameter, which I reckon is the most accurate way of judging movement in a rotational input device (try turning the volume down on your hi-fi accurately with ten to to finger and thumb! much easier at quaret to three). Ten to two means you're on a chord of the circle, so your mind gets confused.
* Quarter to three with most steering wheels allows your thumbs to wrap round the spokes and provide the initial push, which means that a) it pushes sooner as there's no deflection of your flesh before the wheel moves and b) you don't need to grip the wheel as hard - crucial for feeling the steering properly.
* Quarter to three means that you always know where the front wheels are pointing. Try negotiating your car through tight spaces using push pull - very indistinct isn't it?
* The obvious one - you know where straight ahead is if the car is sliding. This can mean the difference between losing control and keeping control (Or even over-correcting into on coming traffic...).
Obviously, the problem with fixed input quarter to three is if you suddenly need more lock and you're close to crossing your arms. You don't want to be feeding the wheel in an emergency. For this reason, I only use fixed input steering for small steering inputs at speed, when I can clearly see the way ahead, or when oversteer is likely (icy weather for instance). On track I use fixed input all the time, unless I am in manouvering in the paddock.
* Quarter to three means that your hands are on a diameter, which I reckon is the most accurate way of judging movement in a rotational input device (try turning the volume down on your hi-fi accurately with ten to to finger and thumb! much easier at quaret to three). Ten to two means you're on a chord of the circle, so your mind gets confused.
* Quarter to three with most steering wheels allows your thumbs to wrap round the spokes and provide the initial push, which means that a) it pushes sooner as there's no deflection of your flesh before the wheel moves and b) you don't need to grip the wheel as hard - crucial for feeling the steering properly.
* Quarter to three means that you always know where the front wheels are pointing. Try negotiating your car through tight spaces using push pull - very indistinct isn't it?
* The obvious one - you know where straight ahead is if the car is sliding. This can mean the difference between losing control and keeping control (Or even over-correcting into on coming traffic...).
Obviously, the problem with fixed input quarter to three is if you suddenly need more lock and you're close to crossing your arms. You don't want to be feeding the wheel in an emergency. For this reason, I only use fixed input steering for small steering inputs at speed, when I can clearly see the way ahead, or when oversteer is likely (icy weather for instance). On track I use fixed input all the time, unless I am in manouvering in the paddock.
Most of it has already been said but my 2p on this is.
Re: John Lyons using classic push pull.
I've heard that too and also that the man's reactions and car control is legendary.
Re: ability to wind unwind lock quickly with classic push pull.
On my last skid pan refresher the instructor and I had a little side bet for a bit of extra fun. He said he would get me into a situation where I would just have to use rotational steering in order to keep up, I said he wouldn't. I lost the bet but not for want of trying and we had a damn good laugh about it. Mind you it was due to a diabolical bit of trickery on his part but that is my excuse and I'm sticking to it!
Re: Handlebar steering, ie 9+3 fixed position.
This is best for small inputs of lock and it certainly does help you to know where straight ahead is at any point. Unfortunately I think that if you try to hang onto handlebar steering too long then you can put yourself in a very difficult position hands wise.
Re: thumbs wrapped round steering wheel.
That IS THE WAY to get your thumb wrapped round the back of your hand in the event of a front wheel hitting something. Not at all advisable. You should have a firm enough grip of the wheel with the thumb laid along the line of the rim.
FiF
Re: John Lyons using classic push pull.
I've heard that too and also that the man's reactions and car control is legendary.
Re: ability to wind unwind lock quickly with classic push pull.
On my last skid pan refresher the instructor and I had a little side bet for a bit of extra fun. He said he would get me into a situation where I would just have to use rotational steering in order to keep up, I said he wouldn't. I lost the bet but not for want of trying and we had a damn good laugh about it. Mind you it was due to a diabolical bit of trickery on his part but that is my excuse and I'm sticking to it!
Re: Handlebar steering, ie 9+3 fixed position.
This is best for small inputs of lock and it certainly does help you to know where straight ahead is at any point. Unfortunately I think that if you try to hang onto handlebar steering too long then you can put yourself in a very difficult position hands wise.
Re: thumbs wrapped round steering wheel.
That IS THE WAY to get your thumb wrapped round the back of your hand in the event of a front wheel hitting something. Not at all advisable. You should have a firm enough grip of the wheel with the thumb laid along the line of the rim. FiF
Placing the thumbs on the spokes of the steering wheel is almost exclusively reserved for tarmac circuit racing. I've rarely seen it used in other situations. Some gravel rally drivers seem to use it, but most seem to place the thumbs along the rim.
Even in circuit racing, I don't think too many drivers put a lot of pressure on the spokes with their thumbs. I certainly didn't when racing karts. The thumbs would only rest lightly on the spokes for extra steering feedback and comfort.
For normal road driving, I still have a mild habit of resting my thumbs on the spokes. But if the wheel is turned more than 60-90 degrees, they subconsciously swivel to the outside of the rim (so they end up their adjacent index fingers). In the only frontal collision I experienced, I had centred the wheel and released my grip at the last split-second.
Strange things you do without thinking, when the proverbial pooh hits the fan.
>> Edited by Jungles on Monday 14th November 12:16
Even in circuit racing, I don't think too many drivers put a lot of pressure on the spokes with their thumbs. I certainly didn't when racing karts. The thumbs would only rest lightly on the spokes for extra steering feedback and comfort.
For normal road driving, I still have a mild habit of resting my thumbs on the spokes. But if the wheel is turned more than 60-90 degrees, they subconsciously swivel to the outside of the rim (so they end up their adjacent index fingers). In the only frontal collision I experienced, I had centred the wheel and released my grip at the last split-second.
Strange things you do without thinking, when the proverbial pooh hits the fan.
>> Edited by Jungles on Monday 14th November 12:16
I find that my thumbs playing a part really helps with accurate inputs. I race on smooth tracks (Silverstone, Snetterton etc), so kickback is never present. In the event of any sort of accident or knock you would obviously need to get your thumbs out of the way pretty fast!
I reckon I could correct slides cleanly with push-pull, but I just reckon I'd be much better at it with fixed input!
I reckon I could correct slides cleanly with push-pull, but I just reckon I'd be much better at it with fixed input!
I teach a technique we drifters use that uses the inherent design of your car (most cars that is, some Tivvers excepted!) & there are few intersting things that you need know first.
When a car goes onto opposite lock: The front wheels effective stay where the were 90% of the time & the car rotates around the front wheels. If you leave the steering wheel alone those front wheels will keep pointing in your intended direction of travel (a good thing) Hold the wheel or try & force it somehwere else & you can be assured they are no longer pointing where you intended them to be.
As a rule the less you do with the steering the better !
Heres a little demo from a rather talented D1 driver, its the same technique, PS no power steering
Mr Ueo in action
>> Edited by cptsideways on Monday 14th November 12:40
>> Edited by cptsideways on Monday 14th November 12:42
When a car goes onto opposite lock: The front wheels effective stay where the were 90% of the time & the car rotates around the front wheels. If you leave the steering wheel alone those front wheels will keep pointing in your intended direction of travel (a good thing) Hold the wheel or try & force it somehwere else & you can be assured they are no longer pointing where you intended them to be.
As a rule the less you do with the steering the better !
Heres a little demo from a rather talented D1 driver, its the same technique, PS no power steering
Mr Ueo in action
>> Edited by cptsideways on Monday 14th November 12:40
>> Edited by cptsideways on Monday 14th November 12:42
RobM77 said:
I find that my thumbs playing a part really helps with accurate inputs. I race on smooth tracks (Silverstone, Snetterton etc), so kickback is never present. In the event of any sort of accident or knock you would obviously need to get your thumbs out of the way pretty fast!
I reckon I could correct slides cleanly with push-pull, but I just reckon I'd be much better at it with fixed input!
Fair enough BUT doesn't the distinction between track driving and road driving need to be made for those who perhaps do not have your (our) level of understanding? Road driving on our poorly maintained roads with thumbs wrapped round rim can mean a trip to A&E in event of a big pothole etc.
Funnily enough last night on Fifth Gear during his track test of the Nissan 350Z Tiff Noodle demonstrated for those watching close enough that at times you have to bail out from fixed position and revert to push pull. Couple of times he was on arms crossed and lacked with nowhere else to go but he got away with it.
Yes, sorry. I will re-state what I said in an earlier post. On the track - 100% fixed input for me and 99% of other racing drivers. On the road I use a mixture of push pull and fixed input. I will only use fixed input on a faster road where I can see what is coming, or when oversteer is highly likely (snow or ice in a RWD car for instance). Even as a fixed input racing driver, I clearly see the benefit of push pull on the road and use it all the time - though I do use quite large sweeps, instead of the insane high speed shuffling that some seem to use!
As for the thumbs, yes it entirely depends on the situation or the car. This is a personal thing, and it has never been taught to me, but I do find that it helps. It also locates my hands exactly, so from the second I get in any car I am 100% accurate with the steering. Obviously, only a smooth track or smooth road.
As for the thumbs, yes it entirely depends on the situation or the car. This is a personal thing, and it has never been taught to me, but I do find that it helps. It also locates my hands exactly, so from the second I get in any car I am 100% accurate with the steering. Obviously, only a smooth track or smooth road.
Regarding Tiff - I didn't see last night's 5th Gear (I will watch it tonight on the repear), but Tiff has a very good steering technique; I've always admired it. He does a lot of full opposite lock stuff in road cars with twirly low geared steering, and never over-corrects. Normally, he will used fixed input and then switch beautifully to the next fixed input location when his arms comes close to crossing.
Actually I've watched Tiff again and I misrepresented what he is doing.
Approach to a RH bend.
Fixed input puts in half a turn of RH lock until arms crossed and locked, boots in the power. (rwd)
As the car starts to slide he completely releases the wheel and lets it "self centre."
Except that the front end grip is so great that rather like cptsideways describes the steering goes beyond self centre and winds onto opposite lock. When the car is balanced he catches the wheel with his hands now in 9-3 position and carries on with fixed input from there. the Mr Heo video shows it, except he seems to give the wheel added impetus on the "self-centring action."
Now I can see Tiff's echnique working when you have lots of grip and have deliberately unbalanced the car, tbh I've done it myself on both tarmac and gravel. Not sure if there is enough grip on really slippery surfaces though.
Also not a technique for public road use I warrant.
FiF
Approach to a RH bend.
Fixed input puts in half a turn of RH lock until arms crossed and locked, boots in the power. (rwd)
As the car starts to slide he completely releases the wheel and lets it "self centre."
Except that the front end grip is so great that rather like cptsideways describes the steering goes beyond self centre and winds onto opposite lock. When the car is balanced he catches the wheel with his hands now in 9-3 position and carries on with fixed input from there. the Mr Heo video shows it, except he seems to give the wheel added impetus on the "self-centring action."
Now I can see Tiff's echnique working when you have lots of grip and have deliberately unbalanced the car, tbh I've done it myself on both tarmac and gravel. Not sure if there is enough grip on really slippery surfaces though.
Also not a technique for public road use I warrant.
FiF
Flat in Fifth said:
Now I can see Tiff's echnique working when you have lots of grip and have deliberately unbalanced the car, tbh I've done it myself on both tarmac and gravel. Not sure if there is enough grip on really slippery surfaces though.
FiF
Or indeed would this work on the true limit during a race situation? I can vouch that in this situation the steering does get lighter, but I've yet to have the opportunity or balls to try letting go of the wheel! (especially seeing when I race I rarely see big oversteer, and if I do it is very fleeting).
I don't think Tiff used to do this, as I remember a feature on the car chase in Ronin a couple of years ago, where he pointed out this technique and said that "he'd never tried it" (for someone with a racing background, rather than a drifting or showing-off background, I'm not surprised).
RobM77 said:
Or indeed would this work on the true limit during a race situation?
Exactly my thought. Perhaps what we should take away from it is that at such on the limit stuff assuming car set up properly then we need to be gentle (ooh matron!) with the steering inputs.
Perhaps this grabbing by scruff of neck stuff is in many cases simply counter productive.
Who knows but if you get to watch the 5th gear repeat see the in cabin F430 test which shows his technique better than the Nissan as it turns out.
Flat in Fifth said:I've used the technique on wet tarmac, and it works.
Not sure if there is enough grip on really slippery surfaces though.
But under race conditions, unless you've already spun, I would still feel more secure with my hands keeping in touch with the wheel, instead of letting it go completely. For "snap" slides, a quick counter-steer with both hands on the wheel would probably be safer and faster, IMHO, than letting go of the wheel. For large skids verging on being unrecoverable, letting the wheels self-align would probably a reasonable option, as long as you are able to keep track of the direction of the steering.
I agree - I feel much safer with both hands on the wheel. I've yet to spin a car or kart on track (ignoring one incident with a mechanical problem in my first ever race), despite getting very sideways on occasions, so I conclude that if you have sufficiently quick reactions this 'letting go of the wheel' technique is probably not necessary in racing.
This is probably because of the quick racks in most racing cars.. I've never tried to go sideways all the time in a car, but last season I went through the Russell chicane at Snetterton on full opposite lock on the way in and full opposite lock on the way out (I had hit oil, so not lost enough speed to correct the first slide and make it through - so I had to deliberately get it totally sideways the other way to make it out). I used standard techniques and managed fine with no over-correction.
I think maybe this letting go business is a technique for road cars with slow steering racks?
This is probably because of the quick racks in most racing cars.. I've never tried to go sideways all the time in a car, but last season I went through the Russell chicane at Snetterton on full opposite lock on the way in and full opposite lock on the way out (I had hit oil, so not lost enough speed to correct the first slide and make it through - so I had to deliberately get it totally sideways the other way to make it out). I used standard techniques and managed fine with no over-correction.
I think maybe this letting go business is a technique for road cars with slow steering racks?
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