Discussion
The boss is a RoADA examiner - he certainly doesn't care how you come to him for the test - he just gets passed a name and that's it. Mind you he has removed far more 'Gold' ratings than he's awarded, so you may not want to go to him if you're in any way unhappy with your style of driving.
HPC is the High Performance Club (www.hpc.org.uk) - Entry standard is considered to be higher than a RoSPA Gold. I'd heartily recommend going the RoSPA route first. Not everyone who gets to HPC comes via the IAM/RoSPA but it certainly is a cost effective way of getting up to a good standard.
volvos70t5 said:
HPC is the High Performance Club (www.hpc.org.uk) - Entry standard is considered to be higher than a RoSPA Gold. I'd heartily recommend going the RoSPA route first. Not everyone who gets to HPC comes via the IAM/RoSPA but it certainly is a cost effective way of getting up to a good standard.
It depends. Time is pretty valuable too...
What do you get on a supervised IAM drive compared to say the morning I spent with Dave getting his full attention?
DanH said:
HPC is the High Performance Club (<a href="www.hpc.org.uk)">www.hpc.org.uk)</a> - Entry standard is considered to be higher than a RoSPA Gold. I'd heartily recommend going the RoSPA route first. Not everyone who gets to HPC comes via the IAM/RoSPA but it certainly is a cost effective way of getting up to a good standard.
It depends. Time is pretty valuable too...
What do you get on a supervised IAM drive compared to say the morning I spent with Dave getting his full attention?
Dan,
It's apples and oranges being compared...with IAM you are looking at an average of 6 drives of about an hour plus a debrief.
We look to get the associate driving to the 'System' - sometimes we need to work on one aspect more than another - smoothness of gears or brakes, observation, etc...
I am currently Observing a professional Chauffeur - could have put him in for test after the first drive except he was not systematic on approach to 'hazards'..he is now flowing better at roundabouts and junctions and is in for test.
I offered to give him a break until he gets the call to test - he asked to continue the weekly drives as he feels he is still improving.
I did a day and a half with John Lyon (After IAM Senior and RoSPA Gold) and felt like buying L plates after it...you learn different things..but, if you are driving to the 'System'in the first place, more advanced tecniques will fall into place much more easily.
BOF.
DanH said:
It depends. Time is pretty valuable too...
What do you get on a supervised IAM drive compared to say the morning I spent with Dave getting his full attention?
Quite so. I expect you probably got more out of your morning with Dave than a whole IAM Skills for Life course. (This is no slight on the IAM, but a refection of top quality professional training.)
More than one RoSPA person has argued that RoSPA Gold is approximately police Class 4 standard.
When John Lyon was the gatekeeper for HPC entry, he's said that HPC entry level (HPC 'bronze') was a comparable standard to police Class 3 standard.
However, I personally doubt you can really compare these things, because only the police do training under blue lights and so on.
Editied to say that, aside from standards, the defining difference of HPC is that it's about entry to a Club where members generally continue to exchange ideas, learn from one another and enjoy driving. The HPC ethos of "furthering skill and enjoyement in driving" differs significantly from the IAM or RoSPA.
>> Edited by Mark_SV on Saturday 22 October 10:15
I did this for our IAM Newsletter some time ago..bit long, but might give some idea of a very long day...
""Notes on driving with John Lyon - High Performance Course - Dec 18 02.
Second drive with John, who was one of the few civilians instructors at Hendon Police Driving School.
Apart from doing individual courses such as the one I did today, John is widely consulted by car manufacturers at design and post production stages - he gave an analysis of why Jag rolled with driver and three passengers while driven by a test driver, with no serious injuries
He gave me very detailed data about the suspension loads and the reason that the suspension bottomed out and changed the geometry and balance from understeer to oversteer instantly on a bend with four in the car - as he was explaining this at 100mph in my X type on the test track, with hands off the steering wheel, my thoughts were more about toilet paper than recording this for the Newsletter…he changed from 4th to Auto at 110 and on to a steady 130 for a few laps.
There was an X Type same colour as mine on the inside stop road during all this - wondered if he had the same engine as me and why he was stopped, had he changed from 4 to 5 at 110?
On this High/Constant Speed track - about two miles long - the neutral steering speeds (hands off) are , in lanes 1 to 5...40/50/60/75/100mph and the guide speeds are 40/60/70/100/Minimum 90/Test speeds 150plus.
My turn next, five lanes on this circular banked track, Millbrook radio in the car to listen for/report anything untoward happening, full beam lights on, watching the mirrors for the Real drivers testing cars….into lane one at 65, mirrors and lane two at 80, mirrors and lane three at 90...noticed that the steering wheel was getting a bit damp…must complain to Jaguar….just about squeezed it to 125 in the outside lane ...a bit left under the right foot but fast enough for me today - the Armco seemed too close.
Next, about a half hour on Hill Route - Loop 3..blind crests… tightening bends…John taking my car into bends on at speeds and G forces that I still cannot comprehend - explaining that tyre squeal is designed to occur at between 38 and 42 miles per hour to give us an audible warning of possible problems? On this track there is a 350m down slope with 52m fall - 21% for 100m then 14% for 85m - I read this on the Millbrook website pdf. file.
I just remember it as the bit where you crest and take off and cannot see anything but sky for a few seconds and John telling me to land as straight as possible - glad I did not have the diced carrots at lunch.
Then to a small handling track for position on entry and exit from bends - his demo of about 6 laps was the fastest I have ever cornered in my life and I wondered for the first three laps why I had paid money to be scared sh**less in my own car - after 3 laps I just sat back and tried to absorb what he was doing.
That I failed to absorb enough was demonstrated on my circuits - time after time I could not get the car lined up for the late apex and even got the two nearside wheels cutting the grass at one point…all this with a professional test driver lapping me in something big, black, disguised and fast, so I was giving him the inside indicator about every two laps and even managed to get one bend almost right by watching his line as he disappeared round a tight bend at twice my speed.
Millbrook has a tight circular track - 13.7m diameter- like a large roundabout - where you can find the point where you lose adhesion at the front or the back end in a safe environment …today there was some special function which had closed this facility…we noticed the Queens’ new Bentley parked near the restaurant..maybe the Royal Family were really going round the bend?
Apart from the time at Millbrook, we drove from Market Harborough at 9am (9.25 as he was watching the road surface ice melt on the pre -drive chat) and, as Mike Corbett had warned me months ago, there are some very distinct differences between IAM and HPC driving..rotational and fixed input steering was a bit difficult to adjust to, as was driving slightly over the speed limit after two years of asking ‘What’s your speed’ with my Associates.
On certain country roads I was encouraged to drive at up to 10mph over the speed limits provided that there was ABSOLUTELY clear vision of the road ahead, to use the gearbox line when there was ABSOLUTELY no chance of endangering or causing concern to any other driver….crests are horizontal bends….always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear or half the distance on a single track or narrow road…all that we practise, but at higher speeds than I am used to.
However,
John drove my car in second gear in any built up area and was usually at 15/20 through villages, used the horn very frequently ( including at Millbrook when passing parked test cars - studying their computer data I guess) and told me several times that I need to get my approach speeds down on bends to hold a safe, controlled line…slow in/fast out when the road opens up - always ultra safe.
As we approached Bedford on a back road in the dusk with me suffering from nicotine withdrawal after 4 hours without my drug, eyes tired, long day, he said brakes, brakes, BRAKES…. A bit like the lady police driver on the IAM video…as I took the left there was a beautiful silver metallic Mercedes in the field on the right - three people getting out and no sign of injuries so we did not stop as they had each a mobile phone to an ear…’Hello Darling, I’ll be a bit late, I’m in a field..the Merc is a write off but the mobile phone is OK’
Overtaking instruction is similar to IAM practice - move up closer and commence acceleration in the correct gear from the outside lane when confirmed to be clear…any doubt - don’t.
Also braking on approach to hazards, light, decisive braking one time then correct gear selection for the bend and the exit from the bend - the way John balances the car at all times and explains the theory and dynamics of handling is a lesson on its’ own.
Got home knackered at 8.30pm - wondering if I had learned anything that would make me a safer and better driver?
Think I did - I learned that there is a great deal that I still have to learn about how to handle a big heavy bit of metal and plastic in various conditions, safely and with restraint and consideration for other road users.""
BOF
""Notes on driving with John Lyon - High Performance Course - Dec 18 02.
Second drive with John, who was one of the few civilians instructors at Hendon Police Driving School.
Apart from doing individual courses such as the one I did today, John is widely consulted by car manufacturers at design and post production stages - he gave an analysis of why Jag rolled with driver and three passengers while driven by a test driver, with no serious injuries
He gave me very detailed data about the suspension loads and the reason that the suspension bottomed out and changed the geometry and balance from understeer to oversteer instantly on a bend with four in the car - as he was explaining this at 100mph in my X type on the test track, with hands off the steering wheel, my thoughts were more about toilet paper than recording this for the Newsletter…he changed from 4th to Auto at 110 and on to a steady 130 for a few laps.
There was an X Type same colour as mine on the inside stop road during all this - wondered if he had the same engine as me and why he was stopped, had he changed from 4 to 5 at 110?
On this High/Constant Speed track - about two miles long - the neutral steering speeds (hands off) are , in lanes 1 to 5...40/50/60/75/100mph and the guide speeds are 40/60/70/100/Minimum 90/Test speeds 150plus.
My turn next, five lanes on this circular banked track, Millbrook radio in the car to listen for/report anything untoward happening, full beam lights on, watching the mirrors for the Real drivers testing cars….into lane one at 65, mirrors and lane two at 80, mirrors and lane three at 90...noticed that the steering wheel was getting a bit damp…must complain to Jaguar….just about squeezed it to 125 in the outside lane ...a bit left under the right foot but fast enough for me today - the Armco seemed too close.
Next, about a half hour on Hill Route - Loop 3..blind crests… tightening bends…John taking my car into bends on at speeds and G forces that I still cannot comprehend - explaining that tyre squeal is designed to occur at between 38 and 42 miles per hour to give us an audible warning of possible problems? On this track there is a 350m down slope with 52m fall - 21% for 100m then 14% for 85m - I read this on the Millbrook website pdf. file.
I just remember it as the bit where you crest and take off and cannot see anything but sky for a few seconds and John telling me to land as straight as possible - glad I did not have the diced carrots at lunch.
Then to a small handling track for position on entry and exit from bends - his demo of about 6 laps was the fastest I have ever cornered in my life and I wondered for the first three laps why I had paid money to be scared sh**less in my own car - after 3 laps I just sat back and tried to absorb what he was doing.
That I failed to absorb enough was demonstrated on my circuits - time after time I could not get the car lined up for the late apex and even got the two nearside wheels cutting the grass at one point…all this with a professional test driver lapping me in something big, black, disguised and fast, so I was giving him the inside indicator about every two laps and even managed to get one bend almost right by watching his line as he disappeared round a tight bend at twice my speed.
Millbrook has a tight circular track - 13.7m diameter- like a large roundabout - where you can find the point where you lose adhesion at the front or the back end in a safe environment …today there was some special function which had closed this facility…we noticed the Queens’ new Bentley parked near the restaurant..maybe the Royal Family were really going round the bend?
Apart from the time at Millbrook, we drove from Market Harborough at 9am (9.25 as he was watching the road surface ice melt on the pre -drive chat) and, as Mike Corbett had warned me months ago, there are some very distinct differences between IAM and HPC driving..rotational and fixed input steering was a bit difficult to adjust to, as was driving slightly over the speed limit after two years of asking ‘What’s your speed’ with my Associates.
On certain country roads I was encouraged to drive at up to 10mph over the speed limits provided that there was ABSOLUTELY clear vision of the road ahead, to use the gearbox line when there was ABSOLUTELY no chance of endangering or causing concern to any other driver….crests are horizontal bends….always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear or half the distance on a single track or narrow road…all that we practise, but at higher speeds than I am used to.
However,
John drove my car in second gear in any built up area and was usually at 15/20 through villages, used the horn very frequently ( including at Millbrook when passing parked test cars - studying their computer data I guess) and told me several times that I need to get my approach speeds down on bends to hold a safe, controlled line…slow in/fast out when the road opens up - always ultra safe.
As we approached Bedford on a back road in the dusk with me suffering from nicotine withdrawal after 4 hours without my drug, eyes tired, long day, he said brakes, brakes, BRAKES…. A bit like the lady police driver on the IAM video…as I took the left there was a beautiful silver metallic Mercedes in the field on the right - three people getting out and no sign of injuries so we did not stop as they had each a mobile phone to an ear…’Hello Darling, I’ll be a bit late, I’m in a field..the Merc is a write off but the mobile phone is OK’
Overtaking instruction is similar to IAM practice - move up closer and commence acceleration in the correct gear from the outside lane when confirmed to be clear…any doubt - don’t.
Also braking on approach to hazards, light, decisive braking one time then correct gear selection for the bend and the exit from the bend - the way John balances the car at all times and explains the theory and dynamics of handling is a lesson on its’ own.
Got home knackered at 8.30pm - wondering if I had learned anything that would make me a safer and better driver?
Think I did - I learned that there is a great deal that I still have to learn about how to handle a big heavy bit of metal and plastic in various conditions, safely and with restraint and consideration for other road users.""
BOF
woodytvr said:
My question is would you get a fair test if you had no pre-observed drives and just went straight for your test or would you be seen as cocky and potentially marked down?
To answer the original question … you can do a RoSPA experienced driver assessment (EDA) for £35:
www.rospa.com/drivertraining/cours
This is essentially the same as the RoSPA test, but you are not expected to have had any prior training. Moreover, it's not a test, so the pressure is off and you can ask your "assessor" for guidance during the drive. Your assessor will be a RoSPA Examiner, so you can get a good idea of whether you'd have passed an RoSPA advanced test, at what grade, and what would be required to get a higher grade in a real test.
I believe you get free membership of the Guild of Experienced Motorists after completing the EDA.
It would be incredibly difficult to pass a RoSPA advanced test without some sort of prior training, because one of the things on which you're being assessed is driving to the police System. This is something you can't really pick up by experience.
Hope this helps.
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