Police Drivers - a question
Discussion
This is not intended to be a 'rant' thread or a critical thread, I merely have a genuine question regarding police driver training.
Last week I was in a 50mph string of cars in the wet, and the car in front of me was a police car. I think it was a Fiesta. This car was driving about 10 feet from the car in front for the two miles that I followed it - in the wet.
The other day I followed a police Volvo estate down off a dual carriageway onto a 4-exit roundabout. The police car took the first exit left. He started to indicate just as he was leaving the roundabout.
My question is what level of training to different types of Police driver have? Also, what are these difference types of Police driver? I'm assuming that a traffic policeman involved in pursuits etc will have more training than an ordinary PC using their car to do their duty? Am i right?
Again, not a criticism, but I was just interested as this isn't an area that I know much about.
Last week I was in a 50mph string of cars in the wet, and the car in front of me was a police car. I think it was a Fiesta. This car was driving about 10 feet from the car in front for the two miles that I followed it - in the wet.
The other day I followed a police Volvo estate down off a dual carriageway onto a 4-exit roundabout. The police car took the first exit left. He started to indicate just as he was leaving the roundabout.
My question is what level of training to different types of Police driver have? Also, what are these difference types of Police driver? I'm assuming that a traffic policeman involved in pursuits etc will have more training than an ordinary PC using their car to do their duty? Am i right?
Again, not a criticism, but I was just interested as this isn't an area that I know much about.
I'm a couple of years out of date and most of my experience was with the Met...
There were three grades in the Met:
Basic (often prefaced with the phrase Billy) were in possession of a driving licence and allowed to drive the Fiesta-type panda carts under normal patrol duties. They were specifically not allowed to use the blues and twos except for the purpose of stopping another vehicle. They are basically totally untrained from an advanced point of view.
IRV (otherwise known as the panic-wagon drivers) had passed a competancy-based assessment on Roadcraft and then had a two-week course on response driving, i.e. turning the blues on and driving at potentially elevated speeds to jobs.
Advanced had completed a further four weeks at Hendon and trained in driving everything, including pursuit stuff. Generally found driving the Area cars and in Traffic.
Unfortunately someone thought it a good idea to base selection for Advanced partially on the percentage of jobs reached as an IRV driver within the magical 7 minute charter time. So you have drivers with the least amount of advanced training and the greatest incentive to drive dangerously in order to beat everyone elses percentage and get the four week course at Hendon and the keys to the BMW 530d... I'd post some of the resulting pictures but they aren't at all pretty.
There were three grades in the Met:
Basic (often prefaced with the phrase Billy) were in possession of a driving licence and allowed to drive the Fiesta-type panda carts under normal patrol duties. They were specifically not allowed to use the blues and twos except for the purpose of stopping another vehicle. They are basically totally untrained from an advanced point of view.
IRV (otherwise known as the panic-wagon drivers) had passed a competancy-based assessment on Roadcraft and then had a two-week course on response driving, i.e. turning the blues on and driving at potentially elevated speeds to jobs.
Advanced had completed a further four weeks at Hendon and trained in driving everything, including pursuit stuff. Generally found driving the Area cars and in Traffic.
Unfortunately someone thought it a good idea to base selection for Advanced partially on the percentage of jobs reached as an IRV driver within the magical 7 minute charter time. So you have drivers with the least amount of advanced training and the greatest incentive to drive dangerously in order to beat everyone elses percentage and get the four week course at Hendon and the keys to the BMW 530d... I'd post some of the resulting pictures but they aren't at all pretty.
StressedDave said:
I'm a couple of years out of date and most of my experience was with the Met...
There were three grades in the Met:
Basic (often prefaced with the phrase Billy) were in possession of a driving licence and allowed to drive the Fiesta-type panda carts under normal patrol duties. They were specifically not allowed to use the blues and twos except for the purpose of stopping another vehicle. They are basically totally untrained from an advanced point of view.
IRV (otherwise known as the panic-wagon drivers) had passed a competancy-based assessment on Roadcraft and then had a two-week course on response driving, i.e. turning the blues on and driving at potentially elevated speeds to jobs.
Advanced had completed a further four weeks at Hendon and trained in driving everything, including pursuit stuff. Generally found driving the Area cars and in Traffic.
Unfortunately someone thought it a good idea to base selection for Advanced partially on the percentage of jobs reached as an IRV driver within the magical 7 minute charter time. So you have drivers with the least amount of advanced training and the greatest incentive to drive dangerously in order to beat everyone elses percentage and get the four week course at Hendon and the keys to the BMW 530d... I'd post some of the resulting pictures but they aren't at all pretty.
Am I right in thinking there are some TPAC qualifications on top on the advanced driver ones....?
RobM77 said:
Last week I was in a 50mph string of cars in the wet, and the car in front of me was a police car. I think it was a Fiesta. This car was driving about 10 feet from the car in front for the two miles that I followed it - in the wet.
Not good. Probably only trained to basic level.
RobM77 said:
The other day I followed a police Volvo estate down off a dual carriageway onto a 4-exit roundabout. The police car took the first exit left. He started to indicate just as he was leaving the roundabout.
You only have to indicate if another road user would benefit from it. Sounds like Volvo driver was driving correctly.
Fat Audi 80 said:
Am I right in thinking there are some TPAC qualifications on top on the advanced driver ones....?
TPaC is a system of attempting to stop a vehicle when intell suggests that the vehicle may not stop, or alternatively, it is a system designed to attempt to stop a vehicle which is refusing to stop consensually. (Tactical Pursuit and Containment).
Non advanced drivers can be taught certain aspects, but the in vehicle stuff is almost always left to advanced drivers who receive initial training on the tactic, then subsequent refresher training. It's not taught in every force but it is very effective, and the training is as true to life as we can reasonably make it.
IaHa said:
The other day I followed a police Volvo estate down off a dual carriageway onto a 4-exit roundabout. The police car took the first exit left. He started to indicate just as he was leaving the roundabout.
Sorry, I should have been more descriptive there. There was a queue of cars waiting to join the roundabout at the road he left by. If he had indicated in advance then they would have benefited because they would have been able to join the roundabout.
You could also make the argument that I would have benefited, as I was following him and also going left. I like to have a complete picture of what everyone around me is about to do, as I find this makes my driving safer. Of course, tou can never *know* what people are about to as people can do all sorts of crazy stuff, but it helps to have an idea of what they are most likely to do. As a matter of fact, I was turning left and had got ready to accelerate away up that A road. The fact that he unexpectedly turned off meant that I had to forget the idea!
No-one is perfect at observation as well, and the police driver may well have not observed a pedestrian waiting to cross the road on the road he was going onto. If that pedestrian thought he was going straight on they'd be in for a nasty surprise as he swung left into their road as they were stepping off the curb. Of course, you should never trust an indication, but what if the pedestrian *did* trust an indication - not everyone is experienced or wise enough to doubt everyone's actions - it may have been a child.
Whilst we're oin the subject (though I don't wish to diverge the thread too much), I'm of the opinion that indicating properly doesn't take much effort (you should check your mirror before changing speed or course anyway, so it is just a little movement of your finger to go along with that), and it is safer to do it and have it go to waste 30% of the time, than to not do it and contribute to an accident where someone you haven't spotted relies on your lack of indication to tell them you're going straight on. Not spotting someone is a mistake, for sure, but making sure you indicate is doubling up your safety.
Anyway, back to my original point, this was in busy traffic, so he was clearly not driving correctly.
Can I thread hijack here and ask another Police Driver question?
In our IAM Group we have just started to get a lot of young coppers and would be coppers joining. Apparently the Guildford group also has lots.
Does anyone know if this is now policy?
Its going to be quite amusing sat in the passenger seat coaching the next generation of Class 1s...
In our IAM Group we have just started to get a lot of young coppers and would be coppers joining. Apparently the Guildford group also has lots.
Does anyone know if this is now policy?
Its going to be quite amusing sat in the passenger seat coaching the next generation of Class 1s...
polus said:
[quote]You only have to indicate if another road user would benefit from it. Sounds like Volvo driver was driving correctly.
Why did he bother indicating at all then?[/quote]
Good point. I've never understood why people indicate as they move, or after they move - I already know they're moving!!! It is just poor driving IMHO - people should PLAN what they're about to do and tell other people about their plan. Advanced driving, in my humble opinion, is all about planning.
lambo cop said:
In the Met we have just introduced a new driver category, it is Advanced basic. It means that we will soon be getting rid of pandas and will only have a fleet of Astra and focus or simular and non responce drivers will be able to drive them but "trusted" not use the Blues and twos to get to a call. Has potential to go horribly wrong !!
OMG - we had enough problems with Billy Basic in Fiestas turning the blues on and crashing - what's it going to be like when they have an Astra/Focus to crash instead?
Oh, I forgot they're all fitted with black box UDS to prevent that happening...
Are Hendon still awarding Class I then or are you one of those mysterious things - an old lag who managed to avoid the hell that was tenure?
I thought everyone had been dragged under the jackboot of Centrex - a centralised training system designed to eliminate and difference in standards. As with many things those forces with decent training standards still have decent training - the rest blame Centrex...
PS Lambo Cop - which garage are you based at?
I thought everyone had been dragged under the jackboot of Centrex - a centralised training system designed to eliminate and difference in standards. As with many things those forces with decent training standards still have decent training - the rest blame Centrex...
PS Lambo Cop - which garage are you based at?
Hendon stopped awarding Class 1 s at the end of the 1990's and also stopped awarding % results. When I did my course in 2001 you were marked in each category as either "Meets required standard" or "Exceeds required standard," or of course "Does not yet meet required standard!"
I was up there again last year on a Solo course and my Instructor explained that sometime over the last 4 years they bought the Class 1 Certificates back in by popular demand. One of my mates did his course in March and was proud to bring back a Class 1. He was told theirs was the last 4 week course on manual cars (the school's last 2 manual Omega's). As I understand it now the course is completely on autos and is a two week non-pursuit phase following by a two week pursuit phase for those departments that need it (i.e Uniform). CID/Protection Advanced Drivers do not do the pursuit phase anymore and are "Level 2" Non-Pursuit Advanced Drivers. They will do Bolt On Surveillance/Anti-Hijack courses instead.
As far as the Met and TPAC is concerned they gave up with it for two main reasons:
1) It requires straight empty roads - rare in London.
2) The training was very labour intensive (4 Instructors per Pupil) and it would have taken over 12 years to train the Met's 5000+ Advanced Drivers!
One of the crucial points of Driver Training is to Understand that every driver will make mistakes. Even my Instructor missed a signal once on a Dem Drive! In an 8 hour tour of duty you are likely to make a few!
I was up there again last year on a Solo course and my Instructor explained that sometime over the last 4 years they bought the Class 1 Certificates back in by popular demand. One of my mates did his course in March and was proud to bring back a Class 1. He was told theirs was the last 4 week course on manual cars (the school's last 2 manual Omega's). As I understand it now the course is completely on autos and is a two week non-pursuit phase following by a two week pursuit phase for those departments that need it (i.e Uniform). CID/Protection Advanced Drivers do not do the pursuit phase anymore and are "Level 2" Non-Pursuit Advanced Drivers. They will do Bolt On Surveillance/Anti-Hijack courses instead.
As far as the Met and TPAC is concerned they gave up with it for two main reasons:
1) It requires straight empty roads - rare in London.
2) The training was very labour intensive (4 Instructors per Pupil) and it would have taken over 12 years to train the Met's 5000+ Advanced Drivers!
One of the crucial points of Driver Training is to Understand that every driver will make mistakes. Even my Instructor missed a signal once on a Dem Drive! In an 8 hour tour of duty you are likely to make a few!
polarbert said:
can we see these pics?
For what reason? - I doubt they'd be very educational - merely an excuse for people to laugh at how bad Police driving standards can be when they forget the laws of physics and belive that the blue light confers the powers of both warp speed and shielding on a Vauxhall Astra.
In any case the copyright for the pictures still lives with the Met, so I suggest you ask them for permission!
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