Very advanced driving
Discussion
Anybody else read Tom Topper's [i]Very Advanced Driving[/i]? I reckon it's a good read, if a bit dated (I've actually got two different editions!) because unlike Roadcraft it tells you how to get out of situations as well as how to avoid them. I mean, we all try to avoid getting out of shape but sometimes it doesn't work out like that. And once you're out of shape, it's nice to know how to fix it so you can avoid it next time rather than push up daisies.
Amazon link [url]here|http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0716021277/qid=1128546925/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-4451850-8863002[/url]
Amazon link [url]here|http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0716021277/qid=1128546925/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-4451850-8863002[/url]
carl_w said:
Anybody else read Tom Topper's Very Advanced Driving? I reckon it's a good read, if a bit dated (I've actually got two different editions!) because unlike Roadcraft it tells you how to get out of situations as well as how to avoid them. I mean, we all try to avoid getting out of shape but sometimes it doesn't work out like that. And once you're out of shape, it's nice to know how to fix it so you can avoid it next time rather than push up daisies.
Amazon link here
Personally, I didn't find Toppers book too interesting...same with Paul Ripleys' book and Margaret Stacey...Ripley advocates driving up the hard shoulder to join a busy Motorway - yeah right!
Curt Rich - Drive to Survive - is worth a look and the Bob Bondurant book mentioned on another thread.
BOF
Might not be *the* best, but going on a nice flat field with slippy grass is a good way of playing with a car over the tyres limits.
Might not apply very well to tarmac roads in regard to limits, but the principle of body control when grip is lost is the same.
It's nice to know what the car does when you are beyond the optimal grip of your tyres and how to regain control, or loose control in a desired direction.
Imho, it would be a good part of the standard test, even if it's just so people get a feel for what happens and nothing more.
A skidpan day is a good alternative if a big flat field is not available.
Dave
Might not apply very well to tarmac roads in regard to limits, but the principle of body control when grip is lost is the same.
It's nice to know what the car does when you are beyond the optimal grip of your tyres and how to regain control, or loose control in a desired direction.
Imho, it would be a good part of the standard test, even if it's just so people get a feel for what happens and nothing more.
A skidpan day is a good alternative if a big flat field is not available.
Dave
BOF said:
Ripley advocates driving up the hard shoulder to join a busy Motorway - yeah right!
I know that this is illegal, and that if you can't merge normally from the slip road it most likely means you've cocked up, but surely if you do run out of slip road, going up the hard shoulder is the safer option? If you stop at the end of the slip road, not only do you have to accelerate very hard to make it into a gap when you get the chance, but you also risk being hit up the arse by someone coming down the slip and not allowing for a stationary car at the end of it.
I'd certainly keep my speed up, and run onto the hard shoulder with indicator blazing.
The whole point we have slip roads is to match your speed with the motorway traffic to be able to smoothly join the flow of traffic.
To stop at the end would just be stupid if the traffic was moving at a normal rate, just you didn't have a decent window to join.
Best to alter the speed and utilise the hard shoulder, but considering some people's response to such "madness" they'd likely speed up and block you off or something daft.
Dave
The whole point we have slip roads is to match your speed with the motorway traffic to be able to smoothly join the flow of traffic.
To stop at the end would just be stupid if the traffic was moving at a normal rate, just you didn't have a decent window to join.
Best to alter the speed and utilise the hard shoulder, but considering some people's response to such "madness" they'd likely speed up and block you off or something daft.
Dave
Read with caution.
It's definitely not "very advanced".
Interesting book, but far from the best. He does have an inflated opinions, although I still learnt from him. However, some of his advice is plainly wrong. For example, his cornering technique would actually reduce car stability. If Mr Topper is right, then every police and racing driver must be wrong!
It's definitely not "very advanced".
Interesting book, but far from the best. He does have an inflated opinions, although I still learnt from him. However, some of his advice is plainly wrong. For example, his cornering technique would actually reduce car stability. If Mr Topper is right, then every police and racing driver must be wrong!
Pigeon,
A 'skidpan day' is normally about 20/30 minutes on a pan...a day on a field would be more instructive - agreed...Reaction of an average driver after a month/year or 20/30 minutes of skid pan...
Plank the brake and hit the hazard?
Mr Whippy,
In Advanced Driving, you should not allow yourself to be in either of the situations you describe...create a 'bubble' of safety around you...keep back from the car in front in case it slows or stops...adjust your speed to slow the car behind you...to make your gap...get the right gear to flow into the traffic...have your indicator flashing - you have several things to do so get the indicator on, to be seen...Do a lifesaver (Over the shoulder look)...try to identify a truck (they move cars to the outside lane?) and flow.
Drive on the hard shoulder?
Bollocks!
BOF
A 'skidpan day' is normally about 20/30 minutes on a pan...a day on a field would be more instructive - agreed...Reaction of an average driver after a month/year or 20/30 minutes of skid pan...
Plank the brake and hit the hazard?
Mr Whippy,
In Advanced Driving, you should not allow yourself to be in either of the situations you describe...create a 'bubble' of safety around you...keep back from the car in front in case it slows or stops...adjust your speed to slow the car behind you...to make your gap...get the right gear to flow into the traffic...have your indicator flashing - you have several things to do so get the indicator on, to be seen...Do a lifesaver (Over the shoulder look)...try to identify a truck (they move cars to the outside lane?) and flow.
Drive on the hard shoulder?
Bollocks!
BOF
Think you've got me and Mr Whippy mixed up...
I agree entirely with what you say - I did say that finding yourself in such a situation generally means you've cocked up, and I'm certainly not advocating driving down the hard shoulder as a matter of routine! (I haven't read the book referred to; does it really advocate that?) I merge pretty much as you describe - though the tip about the truck is useful, that hadn't occurred to me - and have never come close to running out of slip road.
But let's assume that we are in such a situation... let's reduce the cockup contention, too; say we're joining the motorway at a junction we don't know, driving an old four-pot diesel Transit. The slip road is uphill with a tight curve and when we get to the top we find it has a really short taper, and the old Transit simply doesn't have enough guts to accelerate to match the speed of the closely-spaced lane 1 traffic in the space available. That's as close as I can come off the top of my head to an unavoidable instance of such a situation
- perhaps we can also assume that the boss refused to sanction a non-motorway route
As I see it, that leaves three possible options - force your way out into the stream of traffic (an obvious no-no), stop at the end of the slip road and wait for a huge gap (even worse), or use the hard shoulder to extend the space available for acceleration (illegal, but seems to be the safest option).
Would you rank those options differently? If so, why? (I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to learn )
I agree entirely with what you say - I did say that finding yourself in such a situation generally means you've cocked up, and I'm certainly not advocating driving down the hard shoulder as a matter of routine! (I haven't read the book referred to; does it really advocate that?) I merge pretty much as you describe - though the tip about the truck is useful, that hadn't occurred to me - and have never come close to running out of slip road.
But let's assume that we are in such a situation... let's reduce the cockup contention, too; say we're joining the motorway at a junction we don't know, driving an old four-pot diesel Transit. The slip road is uphill with a tight curve and when we get to the top we find it has a really short taper, and the old Transit simply doesn't have enough guts to accelerate to match the speed of the closely-spaced lane 1 traffic in the space available. That's as close as I can come off the top of my head to an unavoidable instance of such a situation
- perhaps we can also assume that the boss refused to sanction a non-motorway route As I see it, that leaves three possible options - force your way out into the stream of traffic (an obvious no-no), stop at the end of the slip road and wait for a huge gap (even worse), or use the hard shoulder to extend the space available for acceleration (illegal, but seems to be the safest option).
Would you rank those options differently? If so, why? (I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to learn
) ""The slip road is uphill with a tight curve and when we get to the top we find it has a really short taper""
Quite an unlikely scenario for a slip road I think...but the only SAFE answer is to stop and wait for a gap.
Joining on a 'normal' slip road, I repeat, keep well back from the car ahead,indicator on, get as much info as possible about the road you are joining, including a lifesaver.
Be in a gear that will take you smoothly into the flow and stay in lane 1 until you have adjusted to the speed of the traffic.
To control the punter behind, did you see Alonso last week when the safety car went in? Nice and steady for a while then booted it to make himself some space.
BOF
Quite an unlikely scenario for a slip road I think...but the only SAFE answer is to stop and wait for a gap.
Joining on a 'normal' slip road, I repeat, keep well back from the car ahead,indicator on, get as much info as possible about the road you are joining, including a lifesaver.
Be in a gear that will take you smoothly into the flow and stay in lane 1 until you have adjusted to the speed of the traffic.
To control the punter behind, did you see Alonso last week when the safety car went in? Nice and steady for a while then booted it to make himself some space.
BOF
Mr Whippy said:
Imho, it would be a good part of the standard test, even if it's just so people get a feel for what happens and nothing more.
Hi Dave,
It is in Sweden and I'd probably agree with you. However, accident rates actually went up after compulsory skid pan training was introduced, due to people's increased confidence in icy conditions!
BOF said:
""The slip road is uphill with a tight curve and when we get to the top we find it has a really short taper""
Quite an unlikely scenario for a slip road I think...
The M6/A59 interchange (J31?) used to be pretty dodgy, but they've rejiggered it now I think... some urban motorway interchanges can be nasty too.
BOF said:
but the only SAFE answer is to stop and wait for a gap.
I don't understand why this is the safest... it seems extremely dangerous to me. Unless you're lucky enough to have a huge gap turn up before anything else tries to join the motorway, you're stationary in an area where other vehicles are accelerating, looking behind them a lot and definitely not expecting to have to negotiate their way around a stationary obstruction. It sounds to me like setting yourself up for a rear-end shunt - which would then project you out onto the carriageway and cause a pile-up. OTOH if you use the hard shoulder to extend the acceleration space, assuming you're not sufficiently dozy to drive into a vehicle stopped on the hard shoulder
- which there is less chance of there being immediately after a junction - the main risk as I see it is being swiped by a vehicle that has suddenly broken down and is heading for the shoulder in panic mode. Surely the hard shoulder option reduces both the danger of the position and the time exposed to the danger? Mark_SV said:
Imho, it would be a good part of the standard test, even if it's just so people get a feel for what happens and nothing more.
Hi Dave,
It is in Sweden and I'd probably agree with you. However, accident rates actually went up after compulsory skid pan training was introduced, due to people's increased confidence in icy conditions!
Mark,
I think I read the same result re Canada!
BOF.
Pigeon,
Sorry,
I still can't imagine the conditions you describe on entry to a Motorway...I would be worried about the reactions of a dozy driver in Lane 1 seeing me coming up the hard shoulder with two lanes of traffic outside him.
I do not see your comments as an argument - maybe one of the Trafpol Class 1 can give us both advice on this hypothetical situation...my reaction would be to stop, brake lights showing, having created my safety area behind me.. at worst..better a shunt for me than 3 lanes of Motorway being mangled (and the Emergency services blocked by a punter on the hard shoulder?).
All hypothetical, but we all learn from asking questions!
BOF.
Sorry,
I still can't imagine the conditions you describe on entry to a Motorway...I would be worried about the reactions of a dozy driver in Lane 1 seeing me coming up the hard shoulder with two lanes of traffic outside him.
I do not see your comments as an argument - maybe one of the Trafpol Class 1 can give us both advice on this hypothetical situation...my reaction would be to stop, brake lights showing, having created my safety area behind me.. at worst..better a shunt for me than 3 lanes of Motorway being mangled (and the Emergency services blocked by a punter on the hard shoulder?).
All hypothetical, but we all learn from asking questions!
BOF.
BOF said:
Pigeon,
Sorry,
I still can't imagine the conditions you describe on entry to a Motorway...
Here's the one I was thinking of on the M6 - A683, not A59 - so bad it has its own webpage. M50 J3 looks pretty bad as well:
and looks like the hard shoulder option isn't on anyway!
BOF said:
I would be worried about the reactions of a dozy driver in Lane 1 seeing me coming up the hard shoulder with two lanes of traffic outside him.
Right, I see what you mean now. I'd have assumed that it wouldn't freak anyone out since you wouldn't be undertaking them. That may be open to question, I guess.
BOF said:
I do not see your comments as an argument - maybe one of the Trafpol Class 1 can give us both advice on this hypothetical situation...my reaction would be to stop, brake lights showing, having created my safety area behind me.. at worst..better a shunt for me than 3 lanes of Motorway being mangled (and the Emergency services blocked by a punter on the hard shoulder?).
All hypothetical, but we all learn from asking questions!
BOF.
Glad you see it that way. I'm most grateful to Ted for opening a forum specifically for such discussions. I too would like to see some advice from those who have to deal with it when it goes wrong!
As a former 'someone who had to deal with such things', my opinion would be to stop, but not at the end of the slip road. If you work on the assumption that you won't have a free gap (and I spend most of my time these days getting people to work from the mantra 'no matter what anyone else does or doesn't do, I'm safe') and trickle the van to the point where you will have good vision and the vehicles behind on the slip can also see you.
If there is no suitable gap then slow down (stop if necessary) and wait until you can time what acceleration you have to get into a suitable gap. I don't think I'd ever want to take to the hard shoulder - it's where the majority of motorway fatalities occur and the number of times I see lorry drivers drift over the line is frightening.
If there is no suitable gap then slow down (stop if necessary) and wait until you can time what acceleration you have to get into a suitable gap. I don't think I'd ever want to take to the hard shoulder - it's where the majority of motorway fatalities occur and the number of times I see lorry drivers drift over the line is frightening.
To clarify Ripleys' advice, in fairness to him as a major contributor to road safety,from page 79...
"The vital thing is to have an escape plan which vetoes barging in to get on the the nearside Motorway lane.This is why your 'lifesaver' glance must be well timed,leaving you the safety of some slip road being left to go, on which to adjust your plan or even come to a stop if you have to.In drastic emergency only, you might have to make that stop on the hard shoulder beyond the slip road end. Better that than run any risk of alarming Motorway traffic passing by, never mind causing them to take evasive action.
If you ever do find your self 'pinned' and having to stop near the end of the slip road, then the thing to do subsequently is to make use of the hard shoulder for picking up to a safe merging speed onto the nearside Motorway lane"
If enough numpties had read this in his column in the Telegraph, my fear was that it would soon become common practise by chancers on the M25?
In the time it has taken me to find the page and type this, they have probably fixed the horrible looking juction you posted?
BOF.
PS - Having read Daves' reply - I would go with him and not Paul Ripley...or me!
>> Edited by BOF on Sunday 9th October 18:48
>> Edited by BOF on Sunday 9th October 18:50
"The vital thing is to have an escape plan which vetoes barging in to get on the the nearside Motorway lane.This is why your 'lifesaver' glance must be well timed,leaving you the safety of some slip road being left to go, on which to adjust your plan or even come to a stop if you have to.In drastic emergency only, you might have to make that stop on the hard shoulder beyond the slip road end. Better that than run any risk of alarming Motorway traffic passing by, never mind causing them to take evasive action.
If you ever do find your self 'pinned' and having to stop near the end of the slip road, then the thing to do subsequently is to make use of the hard shoulder for picking up to a safe merging speed onto the nearside Motorway lane"
If enough numpties had read this in his column in the Telegraph, my fear was that it would soon become common practise by chancers on the M25?
In the time it has taken me to find the page and type this, they have probably fixed the horrible looking juction you posted?
BOF.
PS - Having read Daves' reply - I would go with him and not Paul Ripley...or me!
>> Edited by BOF on Sunday 9th October 18:48
>> Edited by BOF on Sunday 9th October 18:50
Yes, it makes a lot of sense and it's not a way of approaching the situation that would have occurred to me - "late" acceleration in an underpowered vehicle is rather counterintuituve. Thanks Dave!
As for M50 J3 - I don't think I've been past there myself since 1988, presumably well before the picture was taken... but since it's a junction between a B-road and one of the emptiest motorways in the country, I wouldn't be too surprised to find it's still like that. I'll have to go and see next time I'm round that way.
As for M50 J3 - I don't think I've been past there myself since 1988, presumably well before the picture was taken... but since it's a junction between a B-road and one of the emptiest motorways in the country, I wouldn't be too surprised to find it's still like that. I'll have to go and see next time I'm round that way.
I've got the book and have always thought it excellent. I'll re-read the cornering bit though.
re slip-roads. I saw a 'Police TV' prog once. A car had come to a halt on a slip road and the police instructed the drive by tannoy to drive on the hard shoulder, build speed up and merge, etc.
I would drive on the hard shoulder when stopping in an emergency, and once the emergency was over I would drive on the hard shoulder to build speed up and merge. Amazing how many don't do that, and just drive off into lane 1 instead.
On the A5 at Tamworth is a slip road much worse than the one in the picture. It is much shorter, has a tighter turn AND is downhill as well. The slip on goes through a 90 left, and then only has about 100m length before it merges with the dual carraigeway.
re slip-roads. I saw a 'Police TV' prog once. A car had come to a halt on a slip road and the police instructed the drive by tannoy to drive on the hard shoulder, build speed up and merge, etc.
I would drive on the hard shoulder when stopping in an emergency, and once the emergency was over I would drive on the hard shoulder to build speed up and merge. Amazing how many don't do that, and just drive off into lane 1 instead.
On the A5 at Tamworth is a slip road much worse than the one in the picture. It is much shorter, has a tighter turn AND is downhill as well. The slip on goes through a 90 left, and then only has about 100m length before it merges with the dual carraigeway.
"Ripley advocates driving up the hard shoulder to join a busy Motorway - yeah right!"
I'd advocate same, and do.....I certainly would not stop on the slip road......Rather that than being tail ended by somebody coming up behind looking over their shoulder to join lane 1!!!
Illegal?? Maybe, but safer -I think so.
Trouble is these days, and I've had many a near one with loaded trailer, those joining the m-way seem to think that vehicles ON the m-way have to adjust their pace to those joining.....
And there is also the numpty, usually in a BMW, who runs up in lane two of the slip road straight in to lane two of the m-way.......
I'd advocate same, and do.....I certainly would not stop on the slip road......Rather that than being tail ended by somebody coming up behind looking over their shoulder to join lane 1!!!
Illegal?? Maybe, but safer -I think so.
Trouble is these days, and I've had many a near one with loaded trailer, those joining the m-way seem to think that vehicles ON the m-way have to adjust their pace to those joining.....
And there is also the numpty, usually in a BMW, who runs up in lane two of the slip road straight in to lane two of the m-way.......
""re slip-roads. I saw a 'Police TV' prog once. A car had come to a halt on a slip road and the police instructed the drive by tannoy to drive on the hard shoulder, build speed up and merge, etc""
I would guess that the Police were 'covering' the driver somehow while doing this?...just a question, not a criticism...
BOF.
PS slightly off topic but relevant...we have a local entry to the A12, no hard shoulder - over a bridge and right hand curve to A12 with little view of road and about 150 yard lead in...one of the top 5 'accident' spots in Essex I think.
I tell my associates, when crossing the bridge, to look left to see the traffic they are joining, try to judge the approach to arrive BEHIND a truck as all the cars will be in the outside lane...it works a lot of the time (and saves truck drivers some hassle?)
>> Edited by BOF on Monday 10th October 17:41
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