Brake Failure Tactics
Discussion
So - you've lost your brakes and there is no time to slow using the gears since there is a car full of newborn (think of the children!) directly ahead. Swerving and coming to a natural stop is not an option here.
Anyone with any brake failure stories or theories as to what to do next please :)
Anyone with any brake failure stories or theories as to what to do next please :)
Italics are mine
tonyhetherington said:
-Handbrake? skidding?
-Slam it in reverse? can this be done?
-if you're doing significant speed, putting it in first gear will slow you down fairly quicklygear selction problem?
-Ram into the car in front in the most square position you can (i.e. completely evenly)? think of the children!
>> Edited by tonyhetherington on Friday 30th September 11:15
Why not disconnect the steering and blindfold the driver while you're at it!
If you're on public roads I think you should plan not to use more than about half the available grip to stop, and normally use far less than that. So you should hopefully be some way back from the hazard when you find out that your brakes don't work.
I've experienced brake failure on track due to overheating. There is normally some advance notice of this from the smell and from the spongy pedal, and of course you would be on the alert for this if you have been driving hard for several laps. In this situation it is important that you stay on the brakes, don't try to pump the pedal or let off the brakes for any reason until you are slow enough to get away without using the brakes any more. The reason is that the brakes can't boil until you take your foot off the pedal, as soon as you do that you can go from not-much-brakes to no-brakes-at-all. Whilst you're pondering this you also need to change down to obtain as much engine braking as possible, and consider applying the handbrake. It is likely that the brakes will be severely unbalanced while you do this and you need to balance handbrake/engine braking against you ability to steer the car. Of course you will abandon the racing line and exit speed etc and give yourself as much time as possible to scrub off speed before you go off the track. It is surprising how little braking you can get away with if you concentrate just on slowing the car down and staying on track.
On public roads it's unlikely you have boiled the brakes especially in a situation where there is a bus full of kiddies in front of you. You are more likely to suffer from a hydraulic failure or fluid loss. In this case your foot will go to the floor, and pumping the brakes is the right thing to do. You still need to apply as much engine braking as you can and apply the handbrake.
If you really can't stop, and have done everything possible to slow down, and have no option to steer around the hazard, I would say that steering into another vehicle is better than steering into an unprotected person, and steering into the scenery is better than steering into another vehicle that might be pushed into an unprotected person. If you have time (and you should have) then sounding your horn and flashing lights might give your victims a chance to react before the collision and either get out of your way, or at least minimise their injuries.
If you're on public roads I think you should plan not to use more than about half the available grip to stop, and normally use far less than that. So you should hopefully be some way back from the hazard when you find out that your brakes don't work.
I've experienced brake failure on track due to overheating. There is normally some advance notice of this from the smell and from the spongy pedal, and of course you would be on the alert for this if you have been driving hard for several laps. In this situation it is important that you stay on the brakes, don't try to pump the pedal or let off the brakes for any reason until you are slow enough to get away without using the brakes any more. The reason is that the brakes can't boil until you take your foot off the pedal, as soon as you do that you can go from not-much-brakes to no-brakes-at-all. Whilst you're pondering this you also need to change down to obtain as much engine braking as possible, and consider applying the handbrake. It is likely that the brakes will be severely unbalanced while you do this and you need to balance handbrake/engine braking against you ability to steer the car. Of course you will abandon the racing line and exit speed etc and give yourself as much time as possible to scrub off speed before you go off the track. It is surprising how little braking you can get away with if you concentrate just on slowing the car down and staying on track.
On public roads it's unlikely you have boiled the brakes especially in a situation where there is a bus full of kiddies in front of you. You are more likely to suffer from a hydraulic failure or fluid loss. In this case your foot will go to the floor, and pumping the brakes is the right thing to do. You still need to apply as much engine braking as you can and apply the handbrake.
If you really can't stop, and have done everything possible to slow down, and have no option to steer around the hazard, I would say that steering into another vehicle is better than steering into an unprotected person, and steering into the scenery is better than steering into another vehicle that might be pushed into an unprotected person. If you have time (and you should have) then sounding your horn and flashing lights might give your victims a chance to react before the collision and either get out of your way, or at least minimise their injuries.
Never having tried to select reverse at speed I dont want to spend precious moments finding out if it can be done or not - same with first. Handbrake might get you out of control, so bad for best 'walk away'. I've no problem with wrecking the car - just wanting best solution to add to my armoury.
For eg what would slow you down better...delberate skid to go broadside (passenger side prefered) or glancing off parked cars.
For eg what would slow you down better...delberate skid to go broadside (passenger side prefered) or glancing off parked cars.
planetdave said:
For eg what would slow you down better...delberate skid to go broadside (passenger side prefered) or glancing off parked cars.
But your scenario is an impossible situation. You state that there's no time to swerve or stop using the gears, so it's unlikey you'd have been able to stop using the brakes either. It seems that you're proposing a mothod to stop the car in about 50 yards.
I'd drive off the road, to the nearside, and drop into lowest gear possible, then, when speed is reduced sufficiently, I would apply the handbrake. Pure supposition really as I have never been in this situatiion. On the other hand, when thinking that I was going to run into someone, not being able to stop in time, I contemplated ditching the car. Thankfully I did stop in time.
A friend of mine had someone pull out on them at a junction when they were doing speeds of 50-60mph and stop dead in the middle of the carriageway. They had no time to stop, so drove around them, tucking in rather rapidly as there was a lorry heading straight towards them. Neither they or their friend know how they avoided hitting the woman. I think much of what you do in this situation is based on instinct and your driving experience and skill.
A friend of mine had someone pull out on them at a junction when they were doing speeds of 50-60mph and stop dead in the middle of the carriageway. They had no time to stop, so drove around them, tucking in rather rapidly as there was a lorry heading straight towards them. Neither they or their friend know how they avoided hitting the woman. I think much of what you do in this situation is based on instinct and your driving experience and skill.
I too was wondering how you would get into such a situation. In day to day driving we don't really work the brakes too hard so that they will have been cooked. When going down hill, having possibly used the brakes more than you should instead of engine braking, I would have thought that you would check the brakes as a matter of course. If your brakes failed in ordinary conditions it would be unfortunate. Hopefully regular servicing and being tuned into your car would prevent the situation arising.
Initiating a hand-brake turn will wipe off a lot of speed fairly rapidly, particularly if you apply opposite lock during the slide.
If that is not going to work, then you may need to accept that a certain number of people might die and try to limit the number.
Forcing the tyres against the kerb is said to scrub off speed, but that would take time.
If that is not going to work, then you may need to accept that a certain number of people might die and try to limit the number.
Forcing the tyres against the kerb is said to scrub off speed, but that would take time.
I once had brake failure on an MG Midget when a hose split (rubbing on a non standard wheel). Fortunately, it was on a quiet country road (albeit going downhill) and the Midget had a very good handbrake, so no problems. Also, I had a kind of hunch that something was amiss because the pedal felt 'wrong' during the previous application so I was going slower than I would have been.
So, in your scenario, handbrake first and don't be afraid to slew sideways, always depending on speed, traffic, etc. That way you can get all four tyres slowing you down. Be violent with the gearbox to get a low gear - double declutching will help to force a low gear in. Be prepared for the driven wheels to lock when you let the clutch back up.
If all else fails, look for somewhere soft to hit. Avoid trees like the plague but a good hedge is perfect. Remember to come off the handbrake or to dip the clutch if you need to unlock wheels in order to steer. If there are no other choices, hit another car as square on as possible and move your arms away from the steering wheel airbag before impact.
And finally, after the crash, turn off the ignition.
And if you have the presence of mind to remember any of that lot, well done indeed!
So, in your scenario, handbrake first and don't be afraid to slew sideways, always depending on speed, traffic, etc. That way you can get all four tyres slowing you down. Be violent with the gearbox to get a low gear - double declutching will help to force a low gear in. Be prepared for the driven wheels to lock when you let the clutch back up.
If all else fails, look for somewhere soft to hit. Avoid trees like the plague but a good hedge is perfect. Remember to come off the handbrake or to dip the clutch if you need to unlock wheels in order to steer. If there are no other choices, hit another car as square on as possible and move your arms away from the steering wheel airbag before impact.
And finally, after the crash, turn off the ignition.
And if you have the presence of mind to remember any of that lot, well done indeed!
bor said:
Initiating a hand-brake turn will wipe off a lot of speed fairly rapidly, particularly if you apply opposite lock during the slide.
If that is not going to work, then you may need to accept that a certain number of people might die and try to limit the number.
Forcing the tyres against the kerb is said to scrub off speed, but that would take time.
On this point,how many drivers notice that kerbs are generally (NOT always) square where there is a pedestrian footpath but bevelled where there is not...Brownie points as an observation link on Test
BOF
bor said:
Initiating a hand-brake turn will wipe off a lot of speed fairly rapidly, particularly if you apply opposite lock during the slide.
If that is not going to work, then you may need to accept that a certain number of people might die and try to limit the number.
Forcing the tyres against the kerb is said to scrub off speed, but that would take time.
Initiating a handbrake turn is also likely to increase your chances of hitting something broadside. Not really a good idea as it will probably kill you.
I'd probably try the handbrake, in a straight line having pumped the brake pedal a couple of times to check it wasn't pad knock off. Surely the whole point of driver training is to avoid a ridiculous situation like this in the first place?
GreenV8S said:
On public roads it's unlikely you have boiled the brakes especially in a situation where there is a bus full of kiddies in front of you. You are more likely to suffer from a hydraulic failure or fluid loss. In this case your foot will go to the floor, and pumping the brakes is the right thing to do. You still need to apply as much engine braking as you can and apply the handbrake.
Having suffered hydraulic failure at Dono (braided hose popped when going for a late brake at Redgate) I can reliably inform you that pumping the pedal is a total waste of time.
Handbrake and downchanging have much less effect than you'd imagine as well.
Best thing you can do if it is from high speed is choose the softest looking obstacle and aim for that, slapping the car into it sideways at the last minute.
>> Edited by DocJock on Tuesday 4th October 20:13
If you've had a catastrophic failure like a burst hose then the brakes are never going to work, but if it's just a seal failure you may well find they work briefly but your foot sinks to the floor; you may still be able to get some braking effort by pumping the pedal. It does no harm to try, anyway.
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