Discussion
:confused: I passed my IAM test about three years ago and have since considered becoming an Observer. However, there are two reasons why I've held back.
Firstly, I believe that the push/pull technique on the steering wheel dates from the days when drivers sat close to large diameter wheels that generally only had a couple of turns from lock to lock. In my view it's bad practice in modern cars, especially with power steering. (Have you ever tried push/pulling on a skid pan? Slow, cumbersome and jerky.)
Second, insisting that you cannot brake and change down at the same time is denying all the advances made in gearbox and brake design. Again, I guess that this "rule" dates from the days when syncromesh was optional or at least unreliable and there was a real risk of being stuck in neutral whilst approaching a junction down a steep hill. To my mind, the "advanced" techniques is to heel and toe.
I tried once to raise these issues with people in my local group but those who turn up at meetings tend to be at the retired end of the scale and are, perhaps, a bit less open to alternative ideas!
I'm therefore reluctant to put myself into a position where I have to promulgate techniques I don't actually agree with. This is a shame when the important bits of the IAM test: observation, anticipation, smoothness, etc. are spot on.
Does anyone else have similar problems?
Firstly, I believe that the push/pull technique on the steering wheel dates from the days when drivers sat close to large diameter wheels that generally only had a couple of turns from lock to lock. In my view it's bad practice in modern cars, especially with power steering. (Have you ever tried push/pulling on a skid pan? Slow, cumbersome and jerky.)
Second, insisting that you cannot brake and change down at the same time is denying all the advances made in gearbox and brake design. Again, I guess that this "rule" dates from the days when syncromesh was optional or at least unreliable and there was a real risk of being stuck in neutral whilst approaching a junction down a steep hill. To my mind, the "advanced" techniques is to heel and toe.
I tried once to raise these issues with people in my local group but those who turn up at meetings tend to be at the retired end of the scale and are, perhaps, a bit less open to alternative ideas!
I'm therefore reluctant to put myself into a position where I have to promulgate techniques I don't actually agree with. This is a shame when the important bits of the IAM test: observation, anticipation, smoothness, etc. are spot on.
Does anyone else have similar problems?
Bruce,
There is no better way of keeping up your standards - and helping others to get there - than Observing.
Your comments show that you have more in common with IAM than you have doubts..regarding steering ...read what Julian Smith says on Ride Drive - I printed it just today from pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=109&i=8194 for a new associate I start with on Saturday next.
Regarding BGOL - brake gear overlap - this is not set in stone...read up on it, explain your thoughts to your associates if you wish...it is a small part of Advanced driving and something that even Class 1 Traffic men disagree on.
Heel and toe, in my humble opinion, has no place on public roads...it always smacks of 'I can piss higher than you'...like taking the gearbox line on bends, OK to do it IF you know what you are doing and no untrained driver is watching you?
We need Observers - you will learn a lot on Observer training and the satisfaction of getting someone through is rewarding.
Go for it!
BOF.
PS - I avoid meetings like the plague - know what you mean!
>> Edited by BOF on Wednesday 28th September 18:05
>> Edited by BOF on Wednesday 28th September 18:07
There is no better way of keeping up your standards - and helping others to get there - than Observing.
Your comments show that you have more in common with IAM than you have doubts..regarding steering ...read what Julian Smith says on Ride Drive - I printed it just today from pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=109&i=8194 for a new associate I start with on Saturday next.
Regarding BGOL - brake gear overlap - this is not set in stone...read up on it, explain your thoughts to your associates if you wish...it is a small part of Advanced driving and something that even Class 1 Traffic men disagree on.
Heel and toe, in my humble opinion, has no place on public roads...it always smacks of 'I can piss higher than you'...like taking the gearbox line on bends, OK to do it IF you know what you are doing and no untrained driver is watching you?
We need Observers - you will learn a lot on Observer training and the satisfaction of getting someone through is rewarding.
Go for it!
BOF.
PS - I avoid meetings like the plague - know what you mean!
>> Edited by BOF on Wednesday 28th September 18:05
>> Edited by BOF on Wednesday 28th September 18:07
Hi Bruce,
IAM Observers can advocate pull-push because it's all they know, but it's not the only "approved" way. The main things are that your steering is smooth and precise, you can always apply more lock and generally avoid crossing your arms (because of the air bag issue).
On gentle curves, I used a fixed grip, as I do on track. On less gentle curves, I use projected steering, which has most of the advantages of fixed grip steering and leaves my hands in the place to use steering column controls. For tight turns, pull-push works well. For parking, I use irregular steering and cross my arms.
Re: avoiding brake/gear overlap, I found it's worth perfecting it to learn the benefits. Then you know what you sacrifice when overlapping. Avoiding overlap makes you spread out the Gear and Speed phases in System. This promotes an early and unhurried approach to hazards, giving you more time to assess the hazards and deal with them correctly. I generally brake/gear overlap (with heel and toe) when downhill or being tailgated. Otherwise, I do a sustained revs change.
I used all the above on my IAM Special Assessment and various days with police instructors. If you can, I'd definitely recommend a day or more's roadcraft with www.cadence.co.uk or www.ridedrive.co.uk If you can get a copy from www.abebooks.co.uk , John Lyon's Porsche Driving Book would clarify things. Hope this helps.
IAM Observers can advocate pull-push because it's all they know, but it's not the only "approved" way. The main things are that your steering is smooth and precise, you can always apply more lock and generally avoid crossing your arms (because of the air bag issue).
On gentle curves, I used a fixed grip, as I do on track. On less gentle curves, I use projected steering, which has most of the advantages of fixed grip steering and leaves my hands in the place to use steering column controls. For tight turns, pull-push works well. For parking, I use irregular steering and cross my arms.
Re: avoiding brake/gear overlap, I found it's worth perfecting it to learn the benefits. Then you know what you sacrifice when overlapping. Avoiding overlap makes you spread out the Gear and Speed phases in System. This promotes an early and unhurried approach to hazards, giving you more time to assess the hazards and deal with them correctly. I generally brake/gear overlap (with heel and toe) when downhill or being tailgated. Otherwise, I do a sustained revs change.
I used all the above on my IAM Special Assessment and various days with police instructors. If you can, I'd definitely recommend a day or more's roadcraft with www.cadence.co.uk or www.ridedrive.co.uk If you can get a copy from www.abebooks.co.uk , John Lyon's Porsche Driving Book would clarify things. Hope this helps.
I hope this post is not out of context, but here I go anyway.
I have recently finished 8 hours of Ridedrive Tuition taken in two 4 hour sessions spead over a couple of months.
During the last session I enquired with my Instructor about possibly joining the IAM with a view to passing the test and gain a cert etc. I was advised against this because a lot of the techniques that I had been recently taught are not compatible with the IAM good practice and the test. My instructor thought that my vaired use of different police driving techniques would not fit in and the IAM series of car control was too rigid.
It is not my aim to knock the IAM here, just giving an example of some advice given to me by other advanced driving instuctors.
Cheers,
Steve.
I have recently finished 8 hours of Ridedrive Tuition taken in two 4 hour sessions spead over a couple of months.
During the last session I enquired with my Instructor about possibly joining the IAM with a view to passing the test and gain a cert etc. I was advised against this because a lot of the techniques that I had been recently taught are not compatible with the IAM good practice and the test. My instructor thought that my vaired use of different police driving techniques would not fit in and the IAM series of car control was too rigid.
It is not my aim to knock the IAM here, just giving an example of some advice given to me by other advanced driving instuctors.
Cheers,
Steve.
My recent IAM pass races every weekend - the first drive was very slightly 'challenging' due to the different tecniques...but he very quickly adapted to the Roadcraft system.
He has told me that some of the drives have smoothed out his track work and he is nearer to second than sixth most weekends...and that towing his track car to meetings is a lot easier since his observation and timing have improved.
For £85-00 you are looking at one and a half tanks of petrol - or just MAYBE learning something new? The perfect drive is still waiting to be done.
BOF.
Not having a go at your post!
>> Edited by BOF on Sunday 2nd October 16:43
He has told me that some of the drives have smoothed out his track work and he is nearer to second than sixth most weekends...and that towing his track car to meetings is a lot easier since his observation and timing have improved.
For £85-00 you are looking at one and a half tanks of petrol - or just MAYBE learning something new? The perfect drive is still waiting to be done.
BOF.
Not having a go at your post!
>> Edited by BOF on Sunday 2nd October 16:43
Hi again,
Steve raises a good point. The IAM provides an introduction to roadcraft. However, IAM is only entry level, whereas RideDrive instructors can take your roadcraft way beyond that. IAM Observers are volunteers whose own driving is only at, or just above, IAM level. RideDrive, and the likes of www.cadence.co.uk , use police Class 1 instructors with world class expertise.
Your RideDrive instructor was partly right about the IAM. Some IAM Observers might not have enough knowledge to understand everything you learnt from RideDrive. However, IAM Examiners (who are all police Class 1) would certainly know what you were doing. So you could always take the IAM test off the back of your RideDrive training, without further coaching, just to get the membership benefits (IAM Select insurance, 25% off AA membership, etc).
BOF - What's wrong with heel-and-toe? Surely it's no less fancy than a sustained revs gear change (that many IAM drivers use) or double-declutching? I see from your profile you've done a day and a half of the old High Performance Course (as was); did John not cover heel-and-toe? I agree that IAM would be valuable for many drivers; equally, many if not all IAM Observers would benefit tremendously from a day or more's roadcraft with the likes of www.ridedrive.co.uk or www.cadence.so.uk
Edited to say I used to observe for the IAM and was involved at IAM Regional level.
>> Edited by Mark_SV on Sunday 2nd October 19:03
Steve raises a good point. The IAM provides an introduction to roadcraft. However, IAM is only entry level, whereas RideDrive instructors can take your roadcraft way beyond that. IAM Observers are volunteers whose own driving is only at, or just above, IAM level. RideDrive, and the likes of www.cadence.co.uk , use police Class 1 instructors with world class expertise.
Your RideDrive instructor was partly right about the IAM. Some IAM Observers might not have enough knowledge to understand everything you learnt from RideDrive. However, IAM Examiners (who are all police Class 1) would certainly know what you were doing. So you could always take the IAM test off the back of your RideDrive training, without further coaching, just to get the membership benefits (IAM Select insurance, 25% off AA membership, etc).
BOF - What's wrong with heel-and-toe? Surely it's no less fancy than a sustained revs gear change (that many IAM drivers use) or double-declutching? I see from your profile you've done a day and a half of the old High Performance Course (as was); did John not cover heel-and-toe? I agree that IAM would be valuable for many drivers; equally, many if not all IAM Observers would benefit tremendously from a day or more's roadcraft with the likes of www.ridedrive.co.uk or www.cadence.so.uk
Edited to say I used to observe for the IAM and was involved at IAM Regional level.
>> Edited by Mark_SV on Sunday 2nd October 19:03
Mark,
I think your comment on your other post that "PYADT is Rubbish" could be reconsidered?
I am not an 'Ex' IAM Observer - I posted today that I started yesterday with a new Associate -I should have mentioned that I gave him my copy of Roadcraft - much used...I do not disagree with you that PYADT is not as good as Roadcraft.
Would you agree with me that ANY effort to promote safe driving is worth the effort to save some Traffic man knocking on a door?
With regard to your post about heel and toe - I have no problem with it...John Lyon read my notes before my first drive with him and recognised that I had been doing it since 1966 when I did the Glasgow Police Safe Driving course - which included driving 30 miles without using the brakes or the clutch in Ford Anglia MTB460C except at stop....and I was driving an auto when with John (blush)
It is probably a question of age - I have made my mistakes in my youth and now find pleasure in passing experience to younger drivers - my notes are right now with Kinky, who will post my RoSPA record here when he edits them - without my name or details...he might see that John Lyon wrote that my Observation was impressive in the small HPC notes in the folder I sent?
We have also had a few CP1 drivers come to us for refreshers before they do the next Police test - and we get tremendous support from the Class 1 Traffic men who test our associates for £10-00 - they could get more for stacking beans in Tesco.
BOF
>> Edited by BOF on Monday 3rd October 09:14
I think your comment on your other post that "PYADT is Rubbish" could be reconsidered?
I am not an 'Ex' IAM Observer - I posted today that I started yesterday with a new Associate -I should have mentioned that I gave him my copy of Roadcraft - much used...I do not disagree with you that PYADT is not as good as Roadcraft.
Would you agree with me that ANY effort to promote safe driving is worth the effort to save some Traffic man knocking on a door?
With regard to your post about heel and toe - I have no problem with it...John Lyon read my notes before my first drive with him and recognised that I had been doing it since 1966 when I did the Glasgow Police Safe Driving course - which included driving 30 miles without using the brakes or the clutch in Ford Anglia MTB460C except at stop....and I was driving an auto when with John (blush)
It is probably a question of age - I have made my mistakes in my youth and now find pleasure in passing experience to younger drivers - my notes are right now with Kinky, who will post my RoSPA record here when he edits them - without my name or details...he might see that John Lyon wrote that my Observation was impressive in the small HPC notes in the folder I sent?
We have also had a few CP1 drivers come to us for refreshers before they do the next Police test - and we get tremendous support from the Class 1 Traffic men who test our associates for £10-00 - they could get more for stacking beans in Tesco.
BOF
>> Edited by BOF on Monday 3rd October 09:14
Hi again,
Bruce - Excellent! I'm sure you'll find observing rewarding. When you get your first associate through their test, it's a great feeling. As you're going to observe others, I'd really encourage you to build your knowledge (e.g. RoSPA Gold, IAM Special Assessment or ideally a session with someone like RideDrive or Cadence). Also, you could enjoy learning something about coaching, such as:
www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1857883039/qid=1128372069/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-8889232-2771035
BOF - Obviously I agree with you about improving road safety. However
I've found that Pass Your Advanced Driving Test can put off people. It fails to use any principles of adult learning. In contrast, Roadcraft uses many adult-learning principles to good effect and is more comprehensive. PYADT/PYAMT can hardly be said to explain the System clearly and comprehensively.
Also, PYADT and particularly PYAMT are out of date. E.g. PYAMT advocates riding in Barbour jackets as "still the only choice for many motorcyclists". Good grief!
This antiquity is going to turn off any rider from the IAM. These books are for sale in WH Smith and do the IAM a PR disservice. (Especially now that IAM bike groups have generally become slick, modern operations.)
For many reflective or theoretical learners, Roadcraft or Motorcycle Roadcraft remain the only option
>> Edited by Mark_SV on Monday 3rd October 21:52
Bruce - Excellent! I'm sure you'll find observing rewarding. When you get your first associate through their test, it's a great feeling. As you're going to observe others, I'd really encourage you to build your knowledge (e.g. RoSPA Gold, IAM Special Assessment or ideally a session with someone like RideDrive or Cadence). Also, you could enjoy learning something about coaching, such as:
www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1857883039/qid=1128372069/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-8889232-2771035
BOF - Obviously I agree with you about improving road safety. However
I've found that Pass Your Advanced Driving Test can put off people. It fails to use any principles of adult learning. In contrast, Roadcraft uses many adult-learning principles to good effect and is more comprehensive. PYADT/PYAMT can hardly be said to explain the System clearly and comprehensively. Also, PYADT and particularly PYAMT are out of date. E.g. PYAMT advocates riding in Barbour jackets as "still the only choice for many motorcyclists". Good grief!
This antiquity is going to turn off any rider from the IAM. These books are for sale in WH Smith and do the IAM a PR disservice. (Especially now that IAM bike groups have generally become slick, modern operations.) For many reflective or theoretical learners, Roadcraft or Motorcycle Roadcraft remain the only option
>> Edited by Mark_SV on Monday 3rd October 21:52
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