Driving on snow/ice in mountain (tarmac) road
Discussion
Assume you are driving a FWD car In a mountain pass (Tarmac Road where the snow or ice has not been cleared). Your car has winter tires. You have snow chains in the boot If need be.
I have read several times that snow tires and good driving are essential to drive in such conditions. What is “good driving” in these cases, beyond going slower than usual? Are there any specific tips and methods to employ?
In addition, which particular technologies are useful and at which point?
I’ve been driving for 20 years, but by non means am an expert and have not driven in such conditions. But would like to learn at some point so I thought I’d stay with asking about the “theory”.
I have read several times that snow tires and good driving are essential to drive in such conditions. What is “good driving” in these cases, beyond going slower than usual? Are there any specific tips and methods to employ?
In addition, which particular technologies are useful and at which point?
I’ve been driving for 20 years, but by non means am an expert and have not driven in such conditions. But would like to learn at some point so I thought I’d stay with asking about the “theory”.
Don't know about chains, but icy mountain passes would be a no-no for me unless I didn't mind losing my car and my life.
Having lived in Scandinavia and Germany where winter tyres were essential, I learned a lot about car control in icy and snowy conditions. It's not just about going slower than you ordinarily would. As well as that, you need to learn to pick your line to avoid as much change in velocity (lateral and longitudinal) as possible and basically pick your line so that you can be very smooth on the steering wheel and avoid braking and acceleration. You also want to avoid steep slopes as best as possible as you may get into a situation where winter tyres and chains just can't help you stay in control.
Of course that's not how rally drivers do it. They use large slip angles, powerful engines, studded tyres and copious amounts of skill. But I'm assuming you have none of these since you're asking about it on Pistonheads.
Having lived in Scandinavia and Germany where winter tyres were essential, I learned a lot about car control in icy and snowy conditions. It's not just about going slower than you ordinarily would. As well as that, you need to learn to pick your line to avoid as much change in velocity (lateral and longitudinal) as possible and basically pick your line so that you can be very smooth on the steering wheel and avoid braking and acceleration. You also want to avoid steep slopes as best as possible as you may get into a situation where winter tyres and chains just can't help you stay in control.
Of course that's not how rally drivers do it. They use large slip angles, powerful engines, studded tyres and copious amounts of skill. But I'm assuming you have none of these since you're asking about it on Pistonheads.
Brake in a straight line , and if the cars locks up quickly off the pedal and re apply gently , rinse and repeat if the car is still sliding . Try and use the snow along the edges of the road for traction or braking if needed as it tends not to be packed solid . Never use cruise control( you'd be surprised how many do ).
Drive with finger tips , and purposely drop your shoulders if your tensing up .
Drive with finger tips , and purposely drop your shoulders if your tensing up .
LunarOne said:
....Having lived in Scandinavia and Germany where winter tyres were essential, I learned a lot about car control in icy and snowy conditions. It's not just about going slower than you ordinarily would. As well as that, you need to learn to pick your line to avoid as much change in velocity (lateral and longitudinal) as possible and basically pick your line so that you can be very smooth on the steering wheel and avoid braking and acceleration. You also want to avoid steep slopes as best as possible as you may get into a situation where winter tyres and chains just can't help you stay in control.....
This is good advice.I would add that it's similar to off-road driving in that, as you're setting out and in a safe place, boot the throttle and jab the brakes to get into your head what is 'too much' and then work within those parameters when applying pressure on those pedals. It's no good thinking that you're in control and then suddenly finding you're not because you've gone too far.
The best advice is ‘unless it is a life-dependant emergency, don’t drive’
You have winter tyres. On fresh snow, I would stay on the freshly fallen stuff, not on any compacted stuff (that could be icy). Try to keep moving, however slowly. Low revs, no sudden steering or acceleration. On a downward slope, ensure you can stop before you see the need to. Ensure you have road space for safety escape manoeuvres. Some countries allow studied tyres, some don’t, consider if that’s a possibility.
Of course, ensure you have warm clothes, a charged phone, shovels, and all the stuff the breakdown people recommend, and let people know your intended route.
The thing I liked about Volvos, is that the switches and pedals meant you could drive in snow boots and ski gloves. If you are a serious winter driver, you may find footwell rubber trays, rather than mats are better.
You have winter tyres. On fresh snow, I would stay on the freshly fallen stuff, not on any compacted stuff (that could be icy). Try to keep moving, however slowly. Low revs, no sudden steering or acceleration. On a downward slope, ensure you can stop before you see the need to. Ensure you have road space for safety escape manoeuvres. Some countries allow studied tyres, some don’t, consider if that’s a possibility.
Of course, ensure you have warm clothes, a charged phone, shovels, and all the stuff the breakdown people recommend, and let people know your intended route.
The thing I liked about Volvos, is that the switches and pedals meant you could drive in snow boots and ski gloves. If you are a serious winter driver, you may find footwell rubber trays, rather than mats are better.
All good advice so far.
I just add that anticipate surfaces with differing traction and drag. For instance, if changing lanes on a fast tracked out road, placing a tyre on fresh snow will increase drag and pull the car to that side which could induce a spin. So ease off the power to compensate.
On unswept roads, be careful of snow depth which can create a beaching wedge beneath the car and lift it off the road. You will need a snow shovel to dig yourself out.
I just add that anticipate surfaces with differing traction and drag. For instance, if changing lanes on a fast tracked out road, placing a tyre on fresh snow will increase drag and pull the car to that side which could induce a spin. So ease off the power to compensate.
On unswept roads, be careful of snow depth which can create a beaching wedge beneath the car and lift it off the road. You will need a snow shovel to dig yourself out.
Pica-Pica said:
The best advice is ‘unless it is a life-dependant emergency, don’t drive’
You have winter tyres. On fresh snow, I would stay on the freshly fallen stuff, not on any compacted stuff (that could be icy). Try to keep moving, however slowly. Low revs, no sudden steering or acceleration. On a downward slope, ensure you can stop before you see the need to. Ensure you have road space for safety escape manoeuvres. Some countries allow studied tyres, some don’t, consider if that’s a possibility.
Of course, ensure you have warm clothes, a charged phone, shovels, and all the stuff the breakdown people recommend, and let people know your intended route.
The thing I liked about Volvos, is that the switches and pedals meant you could drive in snow boots and ski gloves. If you are a serious winter driver, you may find footwell rubber trays, rather than mats are better.
All generally very good advice, although if you're in Northern Europe or anywhere that's proper winter conditions, definitely don't aim for the freshly fallen snow as it will drag you in, and is also super low grip. Anywhere like northern Sweden/Eastern Europe where the roads are predominantly snowy for the whole season will have compacted snow on the surface. Below zero this is actually very grippy if you're on winter or all season tyres. You can, in ideal conditions, see as high as 0.6 Mu (similar to a wet road) on this kind of surface, however the variability is what catches people out and it's why you should generally always take the approach of expecting no grip and moderating your speed to that.You have winter tyres. On fresh snow, I would stay on the freshly fallen stuff, not on any compacted stuff (that could be icy). Try to keep moving, however slowly. Low revs, no sudden steering or acceleration. On a downward slope, ensure you can stop before you see the need to. Ensure you have road space for safety escape manoeuvres. Some countries allow studied tyres, some don’t, consider if that’s a possibility.
Of course, ensure you have warm clothes, a charged phone, shovels, and all the stuff the breakdown people recommend, and let people know your intended route.
The thing I liked about Volvos, is that the switches and pedals meant you could drive in snow boots and ski gloves. If you are a serious winter driver, you may find footwell rubber trays, rather than mats are better.
Slow down.
Check the weather - As pointed out usually it isn't critical. I have known a few people on ski trips to decide they are going to a different resort and refuse any advice not to - until the advice came from the police roadblock...
Gradual smooth driving. Plan for the worst.
Make your life easy (did trip last year; first time driving for skiing, so wrong side of road, snow (done that in Scotland, but only minimally); Declined to drive last ~50m to hotel; I can park in the gritted, snow ploughed parking lot at the bottom and drag a ski bag + huge rollbag up the lane, rather than (probably failing to) drive up, then have to reverse back down because there isn't enough space for a u-turn at the top...
Check the weather - As pointed out usually it isn't critical. I have known a few people on ski trips to decide they are going to a different resort and refuse any advice not to - until the advice came from the police roadblock...
Gradual smooth driving. Plan for the worst.
Make your life easy (did trip last year; first time driving for skiing, so wrong side of road, snow (done that in Scotland, but only minimally); Declined to drive last ~50m to hotel; I can park in the gritted, snow ploughed parking lot at the bottom and drag a ski bag + huge rollbag up the lane, rather than (probably failing to) drive up, then have to reverse back down because there isn't enough space for a u-turn at the top...
The thing that gets most into trouble is not taking into account the hugely increased stopping distances. I basically try to drive as if the brakes don't work at all, anticipate as far ahead as I possibly can and slow to a crawl when vision ahead is limited.
Finding a safe open spot like a large car park and playing around is also a good way to learn and teach yourself not to panic and tense up when the car loses grip.
Finding a safe open spot like a large car park and playing around is also a good way to learn and teach yourself not to panic and tense up when the car loses grip.
CABC said:
fit good winters, not the cheapest, and don't forget the rear needs tyres that are better or equal to the fronts.
Correct. You need the appropriate tyre on all 4 wheels. I live in Andorra so for 4 to 5 months of the year we are exposed to snow etc. Remember snow tyres will not be a lot of use on ice.I used to work in Norway from Jan to end of March a few times. Watching the Norgies doing their "winter" driving test was fun as they did it on a frozen river/lake. Maybe go over there and do the course?
Our instruction was to try to accelerate and brake as much as you could in a straight line. Do so gently always leaving as much space as you could from any hazards in front. We were Marines, so ignored all that , and often crashed haha
Winter tyres are brilliant, but, space and time to adjust are your best friend. Hold the steering wheel properly at all times to be able to react to any slipping/skidding.
Even doing an advanced driving course in the uk will help prepare most drivers for icy/snow covered roads
I have had X climate or winter tyres on my cars for years now when it gets cold and feel much more secure with my cars control..... but you still have every other t
t around you who ignores poor conditions
Our instruction was to try to accelerate and brake as much as you could in a straight line. Do so gently always leaving as much space as you could from any hazards in front. We were Marines, so ignored all that , and often crashed haha
Winter tyres are brilliant, but, space and time to adjust are your best friend. Hold the steering wheel properly at all times to be able to react to any slipping/skidding.
Even doing an advanced driving course in the uk will help prepare most drivers for icy/snow covered roads
I have had X climate or winter tyres on my cars for years now when it gets cold and feel much more secure with my cars control..... but you still have every other t
t around you who ignores poor conditionsGassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff