Mini-roundabouts

[trevorh]

I followed a learner driver across several mini-roundabouts a few days back. He was in a driving school car so he was clearly under instruction.

On every mini-r, although he was going straight over, he indicated left as he 'exited' the mini-r.

Was he being told to do this, I wonder? I thought one should treat mini-rs as t-junctions (which many originally were, of course).

What is the IAM perspective?

Thanks

[Nick_Chim]

We suggest treat a mini roundabout exactly as a 'normal' roundabout, except you don't need to indicate off as there is less time.

Just checked, and this is consistent with the Highway code (phew!):
164: Mini-roundabouts Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts. All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so. Remember, there is less space to manoeuvre and less time to signal. Beware of vehicles making U-turns.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD reg 10(1), 16(1)

Note it says *vehicle* is incapable, rather than driver

[TrevorH]

Thank you Nick. The indicating just seemed to be a complete waste of time and, tbh, an unnecessary distraction.

[Flat in Fifth]

I've been taught to treat them as junctions BUT if there is someone who will benefit from the left turn signal as per exiting roundabouts then give the signal.

Hope that helps.

FiF

[hammerwerfer]

Nick_Chim said:

We suggest treat a mini roundabout exactly as a 'normal' roundabout, except you don't need to indicate off as there is less time. Just checked, and this is consistent with the Highway code (phew!): 164: Mini-roundabouts Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts. ... Remember, there is less space to manoeuvre and less time to signal.

Seems to me that they are saying that there is less time to signal. They are not saying don't signal.

"Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts" to me implys that signalling should be the same as well, just needs being done in a more timely fashion.

[RobM77]

I support indicating at mini roundabouts because it seems to be fashionable lately to turn right at roundabouts without indicating. I am frequently in a long queue at the approach to a roundabout, because noone knows whether the people who aren't indicating are going to turn right across our path or go straight on... Indicating left is a confirmation that that person is coming off the roundabout. At busy periods, with a constant flow of cars across a roundabout, this left indication is essential to avoid long queues IMHO.

The roundabout to turn into my work isn't mini, but just as an example of what I mean - only about 30% of the people turning right at it indicate. It is a very small roundabout and there is a constant stream of cars across it. As such, everyone is too scared to join the roundabout for fear of being T-boned, and this causes a huge queue and frequent accidents.

[jazzyjeff]

People driving over the roundabout or in front of it (instead of around it) is also very common.. Irritating and often totally unneccessary (unless its an LGV, of course!)

[tonyhetherington]

One of my biggest pet hates (as an IAM observer) is people indicating when it will be of benefit to exactly ZERO people.

(ooo, that sounded a bit like a rant?! Sorry guys, wasn't meant as such!). The IAM's stance is not mini roundabout, normal roundabout, indeed - ANY roundabout, it is simply "will my indication be of use to any other road user or predestrian?". If the answer is yes...do it.

I would question (and regularly do with my associates) exactly who will benefit from an indication coming off a mini-roundabout. Approaching the roundabout and taking the first exit (note I did not say 'turning left') or turning right, then only indicate IF THERE IS SOMEONE COMING THE OTHER WAY. If not...well, as before, your indication will be of benefit to no-one.

Sorry that came across as a bit of a rant - I guess I could put it in better english, but I trust that gets across the IAM's stance on the matter.

Thanks
Tony

[Don]

jazzyjeff said:

People driving over the roundabout or in front of it (instead of around it) is also very common.. Irritating and often totally unneccessary (unless its an LGV, of course!)

Despite this being illegal I have no objection.

Its the people who don't give right of way to traffic coming from the right that drive me absolutely batty!

Oh..and depending on the markings it may be permissible to drive over the top of a mini-roundabout. Particularly as many are now so tiny my sports cars with not terribly great lock wont' go round them...

[tonyhetherington]

I agree Don. While strictly the highway code says you must drive around it (unless incapable to do so) my impression is that, especially in the case of white painted on roundabouts...your goal is for the smoothest, most progressive drive.
If you can see nothing is coming (very easy with mini-roundabouts) and it is safe to do so - why not drive over it?

[Nick_Chim]

RobM77 said:

I support indicating at mini roundabouts because it seems to be fashionable lately to turn right at roundabouts without indicating.

to be fair, I did say indicate *off* rather than *on* - I would always expect a RH indicator on entry if one is going right (and of course if someone would benefit from the signal as Tony H & FiF mention.)

If one has time and it would be helpful to someone around you, one should of course signal off - I suggest though that you don't compromise steering to go for an indication (you'd be surprised how many associates do when on observed runs and I take them around my 'test' mini roundabout!).

As to Tony's "rant" about signals, yes I wholeheartedly agree that you should think about who you are signalling to; however, I can't get as excited as some observers over signals - I tend to concentrate on the trinity of Speed, Steering & System.

Saying "signalling for the benefit of xxxx" in your commentary is a useful way of forcing the thinking; I have been known to say 'signalling for the benefit of.... the cat on the side of the road' from time to time .

[RobM77]

Nick_Chim said:

RobM77 said: I support indicating at mini roundabouts because it seems to be fashionable lately to turn right at roundabouts without indicating. to be fair, I did say indicate *off* rather than *on* - I would always expect a RH indicator on entry if one is going right (and of course if someone would benefit from the signal as Tony H & FiF mention.)

Sorry, what I meant was that seeing an indication that someone is coming off allows you to join the roundabout without the fear of being T-boned!

[carl_w]

I used to go straight over mini roundabouts (well, the left hand side of them). But the Cerb grounds on them, so I can't do that any more.

Some of our local ones have a nasty "lip" on them, so you don't want to be going straight over those.

What's the form with those roundabouts that are normal in the middle, then have a bit paved in a different colour (usually red blocks), then a bit of flat kerb, then the road? Obviously they're designed to let HGVs go round, but should I be looking to apex on the outer or inner kerb? What does the law say?

[Pigeon]

The block paving bit is usually off camber and looks likely to be slippery, so I stay off it.

RobM77 said:

Sorry, what I meant was that seeing an indication that someone is coming off allows you to join the roundabout without the fear of being T-boned!

...as long as they confirm the indication by commencing the manoeuvre of coming off

[RobM77]

err - yeah :-D

Someone once said to me "trust no-one on the road", but if you're sat at a roundabout with a constant (and I mean constant!) stream of traffic, you have to trust people's indications to get onto the roundabout else you'd be there all day!

[Nick_Chim]

Friend of mine whose Dad was a lawyer used to quote a case-law precident where a person was found 60% responsible for an accident by believing and acting on the basis of an incorrect signal... Beware (and any legal beagles on here who know of the case?)

PS I was once told the best way to straighten a roundabout was with a JCB......

[EmmaP]

Don said:

Despite this being illegal I have no objection. Its the people who don't give right of way to traffic coming from the right that drive me absolutely batty! Oh..and depending on the markings it may be permissible to drive over the top of a mini-roundabout. Particularly as many are now so tiny my sports cars with not terribly great lock wont' go round them...

Phew! There is one near where I live and it is so tiny I have to practically lean my whole body on the wheel to get round it. I did try to negotiate it properly but there are rarely any cars, bikes or pedestrians around so I tend to just drive over it or in front of it.

[EmmaP]

After completing my IAM test the examiner commented that he was glad that I did not signal unnecessarily as, "I really hate people who signal all the time." Call it irony or sheer bad luck, but I nearly had an accident on the way home from the test as a woman failed to signal right on a mini-roundabout until she was half way across. I should have anticipated this sooner than I did. Luckily an accident was avioded. This is a good example of why one should signal, as assumption is the mother of all disaster.

[TOPTON]

Driving instructor comment! Roundabouts are roundabouts, be them large or small. They are not a chicane, put there to take the shortest route possible. Signal left or right on approach or not if going straight on. If going straight ahead at a "mini" no need to signal left when leaving as you could compramise your steering. Signals are used for guidence, not to be acted upon. Body language(position & speed) are just as important.
As far as driving tests are concerned, every junction or roundabout requires an appropriate signal on approach. Sorry, not meant to sound like I was ranting!!
Roundabouts are my pet hate, while out on my m/bike I was cleaned up by a prat in a car shortcutting a r/about to go straight on. "sorry mate, didn't see you" was his sad excuse. Didn't look or care more like.
Such a shame that a good samariton following me stopped me from getting up to kick the s**t out of him

[carl_w]

A long time again, when I used to work in Harlow, there was a queue of traffic coming out of the industrial estate every night, waiting to turn left to get onto the A414. I used to whistle down the right hand side of the queue, go 450 degrees round the roundabout and come off on the first exit
Then I met someone who used to pull the same stunt on mini roundabouts!