Do you think this junction is adequetly signed?
Discussion
I approached this unfamiliar junction a couple of hours ago in pitch black and fairly heavy rain:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.9666675,-2.03447...
I was turning right and could tell it was a dual carriageway through some combination of experience and logic, but it really wasn't adequetely signed imo and I could imagine someone turning right into incoming traffic. Am I right that there are some signs that would conventionally be there missing here?
The streetview seems pretty representative of the signage that was there, but the conditions were entirely different - obviously it would be close to impossible to screw up in daytime. There was no lighting and it gets properly dark up here.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.9666675,-2.03447...
I was turning right and could tell it was a dual carriageway through some combination of experience and logic, but it really wasn't adequetely signed imo and I could imagine someone turning right into incoming traffic. Am I right that there are some signs that would conventionally be there missing here?
The streetview seems pretty representative of the signage that was there, but the conditions were entirely different - obviously it would be close to impossible to screw up in daytime. There was no lighting and it gets properly dark up here.
Edited by Somewhatfoolish on Saturday 4th November 21:30
Cylon2007 said:
Looks fine to me, what other signage would you be expecting?
Some kind of obvious indication you're coming onto a dual carriageway. With the exception of the fairly obscured sign to Hexham, there isn't any signage to that effect, just relatively vague road markings. Again remember this was in pitch darkness with no lighting. A similar junction in the area has this sign on approach, these signs as you go to turn right, and a marking in the carriageway separator (sorry proper term has escaped me at 1am on a Satuday) as to where/how to turn. That's the norm imo for non grade separated junctions at NSL dual carrigeways.
I was able to figure it out but I was a bit uncertain and that is the first time I've been uncertain at a road junction in many years (in the UK) so it feels worth bringing here for a review. The secondary question of course is to how I could have avoided being confused.
You must imagine it in the dark in fairly bad weather. It's obvious in the daytime of course.
Edited by Somewhatfoolish on Sunday 5th November 01:28
Small world! - I used to live in the little barn conversion development 200yds on the left after that junction. Once nearly came a cropper in a Mk1 MR2 approaching it when I got brake fade but I never though the junction was dangerous in any way but perhaps thats down to familiarity.
Super Sonic said:
When you get to the junction you should see the central reservation and the black and white chevrons board.
If I remember correctly, at night (at least in the car I was driving which does have notoriously poor headlights) you see the board and the reservation in the sense of the white lines in the road but not the central reservation proper (i.e. solid stuff) - the lane markings are of course dual carrigeway style rather than single carrigeway so you can see that but my question remains about it being adequetely signed not whether it's impossible to figure out... Signage seems ok to me.
I think the right arrowed chevron sign and the associated right arrowed sign for Corbridge, positioned at the far side of the road are a clear indicator that the road is far wider than is the norm. I think this signs position alone would give rise to an understanding of the roads width.
Most likely it would be clearly visible in the last stages of approach with main beam on but, in the event a vehicle was turning in toward and passing in the opposite direction precluding main beam, as you come to a halt at the give way (being unfamiliar with the junction / direction to go in and giving yourself time to comprehend the next move) I think even dipped beam would be highlighting the (almost certainly reflective) sign.
I think the right arrowed chevron sign and the associated right arrowed sign for Corbridge, positioned at the far side of the road are a clear indicator that the road is far wider than is the norm. I think this signs position alone would give rise to an understanding of the roads width.
Most likely it would be clearly visible in the last stages of approach with main beam on but, in the event a vehicle was turning in toward and passing in the opposite direction precluding main beam, as you come to a halt at the give way (being unfamiliar with the junction / direction to go in and giving yourself time to comprehend the next move) I think even dipped beam would be highlighting the (almost certainly reflective) sign.
Looks OK at face value but it's hard to make a definitive judgement from a daytime photo as to how you'd experience it in heavy rain, in the dark and possibly with the glare of other people's HIDs hampering your visibility even further. I'd hope that my headlights would illuminate the wall at the opposite side, giving me a reference as to where the other side of the road was and, therefore, where I should be going if I were turning right, but who knows?
I nearly came a cropper here once...
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.3451711,-2.77525...
As it is, to all intents and purposes, a roundabout, I was expecting traffic coming from the left to have to give way. I somehow saw and then de-registered the "give way" signs, perhaps because I was unfamiliar with the road and under a higher than normal cognitive load... and also because there were no "give way" or "stop" signs at the actual point where you had to stop. My mistake entirely but human beings are prone to mistakes so acknowledging this and improving signage would make a more meaningful difference to road safety than just playing the blame game when something goes wrong.
I nearly came a cropper here once...
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.3451711,-2.77525...
As it is, to all intents and purposes, a roundabout, I was expecting traffic coming from the left to have to give way. I somehow saw and then de-registered the "give way" signs, perhaps because I was unfamiliar with the road and under a higher than normal cognitive load... and also because there were no "give way" or "stop" signs at the actual point where you had to stop. My mistake entirely but human beings are prone to mistakes so acknowledging this and improving signage would make a more meaningful difference to road safety than just playing the blame game when something goes wrong.
MitchT said:
Looks OK at face value but it's hard to make a definitive judgement from a daytime photo as to how you'd experience it in heavy rain, in the dark and possibly with the glare of other people's HIDs hampering your visibility even further. I'd hope that my headlights would illuminate the wall at the opposite side, giving me a reference as to where the other side of the road was and, therefore, where I should be going if I were turning right, but who knows?
I nearly came a cropper here once...
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.3451711,-2.77525...
As it is, to all intents and purposes, a roundabout, I was expecting traffic coming from the left to have to give way. I somehow saw and then de-registered the "give way" signs, perhaps because I was unfamiliar with the road and under a higher than normal cognitive load... and also because there were no "give way" or "stop" signs at the actual point where you had to stop. My mistake entirely but human beings are prone to mistakes so acknowledging this and improving signage would make a more meaningful difference to road safety than just playing the blame game when something goes wrong.
There are give way road markings at the point you have to give way in addition to the prior give way signs. I nearly came a cropper here once...
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.3451711,-2.77525...
As it is, to all intents and purposes, a roundabout, I was expecting traffic coming from the left to have to give way. I somehow saw and then de-registered the "give way" signs, perhaps because I was unfamiliar with the road and under a higher than normal cognitive load... and also because there were no "give way" or "stop" signs at the actual point where you had to stop. My mistake entirely but human beings are prone to mistakes so acknowledging this and improving signage would make a more meaningful difference to road safety than just playing the blame game when something goes wrong.
Wills2 said:
MitchT said:
Looks OK at face value but it's hard to make a definitive judgement from a daytime photo as to how you'd experience it in heavy rain, in the dark and possibly with the glare of other people's HIDs hampering your visibility even further. I'd hope that my headlights would illuminate the wall at the opposite side, giving me a reference as to where the other side of the road was and, therefore, where I should be going if I were turning right, but who knows?
I nearly came a cropper here once...
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.3451711,-2.77525...
As it is, to all intents and purposes, a roundabout, I was expecting traffic coming from the left to have to give way. I somehow saw and then de-registered the "give way" signs, perhaps because I was unfamiliar with the road and under a higher than normal cognitive load... and also because there were no "give way" or "stop" signs at the actual point where you had to stop. My mistake entirely but human beings are prone to mistakes so acknowledging this and improving signage would make a more meaningful difference to road safety than just playing the blame game when something goes wrong.
There are give way road markings at the point you have to give way in addition to the prior give way signs. I nearly came a cropper here once...
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.3451711,-2.77525...
As it is, to all intents and purposes, a roundabout, I was expecting traffic coming from the left to have to give way. I somehow saw and then de-registered the "give way" signs, perhaps because I was unfamiliar with the road and under a higher than normal cognitive load... and also because there were no "give way" or "stop" signs at the actual point where you had to stop. My mistake entirely but human beings are prone to mistakes so acknowledging this and improving signage would make a more meaningful difference to road safety than just playing the blame game when something goes wrong.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.3452016,-2.77497...
I’ve spent a bit of time up and around this area. Just a few observations:
There are a few signage improvements that could be made, sure, but I’d imagine it’s probably quite low down the Highways priority list…
There’s also some vehicle flow reasoning to consider here. If you were travelling along the A695 from the Riding Mill/Broomhaugh direction and bound for Corbridge, the expectation is that you could continue along onto the B6529 and past Corbridge station before arriving at the roundabout and bearing right on the B6321 to go over the Tyne and into the town.
So I’m curious as to how you came to be travelling along the A695 to the T-junction, and then needing to turn right? Was that your original plan? Of course, you’re at complete liberty to do so - it’s just the longer and route less travelled! I suspect that’s why they haven’t seen fit to add any additional signage. As the vast majority of vehicles will travel to that T-junction and will be turning left, along the continuation of the A695 towards Hexham.
And if you were travelling north along the B6307, you’d proceed through the staggered junction with the A695, over the railway and the turn right for Corbridge at a perfectly decent junction with the B6321.
As has already been said, we’ve probably ended up with this arrangement due to the B6321 previously being the A69, prior to the bypass being built. As that used to route directly through Corbridge on its way to Hexham. Indeed, numerous road naming changes have occurred around there over the years. Mainly due to the re-routing of the A68 and A69, to avoid both routing directly through the middle of Corbridge.
So whilst not ideal for your right turn experience, there’s usually a reason! Is it sufficiently marked junction? For the expected level of vehicle movements, I’d say so.
A map indicating the previous highway arrangement that may help. I've marked the T-junction in question:
There are a few signage improvements that could be made, sure, but I’d imagine it’s probably quite low down the Highways priority list…
There’s also some vehicle flow reasoning to consider here. If you were travelling along the A695 from the Riding Mill/Broomhaugh direction and bound for Corbridge, the expectation is that you could continue along onto the B6529 and past Corbridge station before arriving at the roundabout and bearing right on the B6321 to go over the Tyne and into the town.
So I’m curious as to how you came to be travelling along the A695 to the T-junction, and then needing to turn right? Was that your original plan? Of course, you’re at complete liberty to do so - it’s just the longer and route less travelled! I suspect that’s why they haven’t seen fit to add any additional signage. As the vast majority of vehicles will travel to that T-junction and will be turning left, along the continuation of the A695 towards Hexham.
And if you were travelling north along the B6307, you’d proceed through the staggered junction with the A695, over the railway and the turn right for Corbridge at a perfectly decent junction with the B6321.
As has already been said, we’ve probably ended up with this arrangement due to the B6321 previously being the A69, prior to the bypass being built. As that used to route directly through Corbridge on its way to Hexham. Indeed, numerous road naming changes have occurred around there over the years. Mainly due to the re-routing of the A68 and A69, to avoid both routing directly through the middle of Corbridge.
So whilst not ideal for your right turn experience, there’s usually a reason! Is it sufficiently marked junction? For the expected level of vehicle movements, I’d say so.
A map indicating the previous highway arrangement that may help. I've marked the T-junction in question:
Wardy5 said:
So I’m curious as to how you came to be travelling along the A695 to the T-junction, and then needing to turn right? Was that your original plan? Of course, you’re at complete liberty to do so - it’s just the longer and route less travelled! I suspect that’s why they haven’t seen fit to add any additional signage. As the vast majority of vehicles will travel to that T-junction and will be turning left, along the continuation of the A695 towards Hexham.
And if you were travelling north along the B6307, you’d proceed through the staggered junction with the A695, over the railway and the turn right for Corbridge at a perfectly decent junction with the B6321.
The OP h\sn't mentioned his route, but for anyone unfamiliar (see the first line of his post).with the area, the staggered junction you refer to would not be obvious.And if you were travelling north along the B6307, you’d proceed through the staggered junction with the A695, over the railway and the turn right for Corbridge at a perfectly decent junction with the B6321.
If he was travelling north on the B6307 not only is the left turn of the stagger unsigned but at the T-junction Corbridge is signed left - https://maps.app.goo.gl/x5ofPXF7VVBbQQgX9
I use that route from Stanhope via Blanchland to Corbridge most years when I tour the Highlands - https://maps.app.goo.gl/eka7rHTHhR2t2YX99.
That junction layout (A695/B6321) and its associated signage is far from unique. Furthermore the A695 at that point is not a d/c and is not marked as such. The speed limit is 60mph (S2 NSL).
Wardy5 said:
So I’m curious as to how you came to be travelling along the A695 to the T-junction, and then needing to turn right? Was that your original plan?
It's not a particularly interesting story, but we'd been to Hexham fireworks and as I often do, not being in a rush I attempted to make a journey back following road signs along back roads I didn't know* and got hopelessly lost - the entire route made zero sense not just that one junction!Still it being a "pointless" right hand turn makes sense as to how it is in that state.
*The "sensible" route back would have been the A68
NRG1976 said:
I’m not having a dig OP, but you’re asking for signage for something that is quite obvious. I don’t understand why someone turning right wouldn’t understand this big road continues to mean we drive on the left still!
There's "obvious" and then there's "obvious" if you know what I mean? I didn't get the junction wrong and I wouldn't think anything of it if I, for example, encountered it in other countries with poorer signage. But by UK standards it really isn't obvious. I commented to Mrs Foolish at the time that it wasn't satisfactory. At night you cannot see the "big road". Perhaps I will video it at some point from the car I was driving with the poor headlights to demo what I could see. Not sure when that will be though as that car is RWD and on summer tyres so I certainly won't be doing it in the next couple of days for sure and I don't head up that way too often anyway - main reason I do is that my nearest Waitrose is in Hexham.
Edited by Somewhatfoolish on Sunday 3rd December 20:42
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