Autocar Advanced Driving Supplement
Discussion
I've read this kinda thing in Evo magazines road craft series that they did maybe 6 months ago.
Most of it really is common sense, but mainly it's exampled with such non-real world examples, like constant radius bends with no mid-corner bumps.
Any good driver can make good safe progress on an "ideal" road. It's when it gets bumpy or has patchy surface grip, or debris on the road etc, that perhaps a good driver could be better with expert tuition.
I can honestly say that none of what I read in either Evo or Autocar the other night made me want to drive any differently than I already do.
I think that good road craft comes with awareness and practice and knowing your own limits, and an understanding of your car and it's abilities.
The only way an already good driver who probably would care at all anyway would get any better is not from reading a few pages of a magazine, but from proper professional tuition!
Dave
>> Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 1st September 12:29
Most of it really is common sense, but mainly it's exampled with such non-real world examples, like constant radius bends with no mid-corner bumps.
Any good driver can make good safe progress on an "ideal" road. It's when it gets bumpy or has patchy surface grip, or debris on the road etc, that perhaps a good driver could be better with expert tuition.
I can honestly say that none of what I read in either Evo or Autocar the other night made me want to drive any differently than I already do.
I think that good road craft comes with awareness and practice and knowing your own limits, and an understanding of your car and it's abilities.
The only way an already good driver who probably would care at all anyway would get any better is not from reading a few pages of a magazine, but from proper professional tuition!
Dave
>> Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 1st September 12:29
rsvmilly said:
Probably the most important thing I ever read in my formative driving days was written by Stirling Moss and is was simply 'keep it smooth'. No sharp inputs of power, braking or steering seems a good basis.
My Papa's advice - he is not Stirling Moss though.
But he told me the same thing - good drivers keep it smooth as silk. rsvmilly said:
Probably the most important thing I ever read in my formative driving days was written by Stirling Moss and is was simply 'keep it smooth'. No sharp inputs of power, braking or steering seems a good basis.
Yep and he got it from Guiseppi Farina along with the straight arm driving style. Ive copied my driving on the pair of them from as soon as I sat behind a wheel.
Cant stand all this bent arm, close to the window stuff. If it was good enough for Farina and Moss, its good enough for me.
PetrolTed said:
Curiously they've sought advice from racing drivers about road driving technique.
Nothing new in that, Ted.
Believe it or not, pull - push steering was derived from racing. Back in 1934, at the request of the police, two leading racing drivers of that era, Malcolm Campbell and Lord Cottenham, provided a "recommended best practice" from their competition experience. Pull - Push steering was one of the recommendations and it worked very well for cars of that era. In those days, steering was far heavier than it is today and consequently a larger diameter wheel was required, along with some shoulder power to turn it.
Perhaps it's high time that racers were consulted again. Then we may see the end of this archaic method for steering a modern car.
DJC said:
Probably the most important thing I ever read in my formative driving days was written by Stirling Moss and is was simply 'keep it smooth'. No sharp inputs of power, braking or steering seems a good basis.
Yep and he got it from Guiseppi Farina along with the straight arm driving style. Ive copied my driving on the pair of them from as soon as I sat behind a wheel.
Cant stand all this bent arm, close to the window stuff. If it was good enough for Farina and Moss, its good enough for me.
I was told in no uncertain terms by my Ridedrive instuctor that I was too far from the wheel with straight arms and that they should be bent in a relaxed style..... So that is what I have been working on. It is interesting to hear that you don't all agree...!
I thought the supplement was a fair stab at communicating a few examples of what can often be very esoteric techniques.
I concur with the advice about road surfaces. The supplement advises that the driver should look as far up the road as possible, but when I'm driving 'enthusiastically', I'm always on the lookout for changes in the road surface, debris, road kill etc that you wouldn't pick up if you concentrated solely on the vanishing point.
I think they undersold the importance of anticipation in exchange for more photogenic techniques like J-turns and handbrake turns. I have a friend whose car control is pretty good but who seems to possess almost no anticipation or ability to read another car's 'body language'. Scary.
>> Edited by bad_roo on Thursday 1st September 15:24
I concur with the advice about road surfaces. The supplement advises that the driver should look as far up the road as possible, but when I'm driving 'enthusiastically', I'm always on the lookout for changes in the road surface, debris, road kill etc that you wouldn't pick up if you concentrated solely on the vanishing point.
I think they undersold the importance of anticipation in exchange for more photogenic techniques like J-turns and handbrake turns. I have a friend whose car control is pretty good but who seems to possess almost no anticipation or ability to read another car's 'body language'. Scary.
>> Edited by bad_roo on Thursday 1st September 15:24
PetrolTed said:
I was more concerned about the idea of bends having apexes etc. On track that may be relavent but surely sight lines are far more important to making good progress on the public road?
Consider setting up the car for a bend on track. Lets pretend its a right hander (like most are).
On track: Place the car on the left hand edge of the track. Brake and get the gear you need looking through the corner to the apex and the exit. Turn in smoothly so the car brushes the apex on the right hand side of the track, applying power so the car brushes the left hand side of the track at the exit point.
On road: Place the car on the left hand edge of the road...far enough out to avoid the debris and crap that gets flung there by the traffic. Look towards the apex and up the road to the exit. Oops. The hedges are in the way so you can't see the exit. If you don't know where the exit is you don't know where the apex is. So STAY left...maximising your view up the road. Always ensure you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear. The furthest point up the road you can see is the "Limit (of visibility) Point". The Limit Point will be to your right. Keep your speed constant watching the Limit Point. As it moves left back towards the centre of your view (which it will if the road is straightening) look for the exit point. At the Limit Point moves to the crown of the road you can increase speed as the distance you can see to be clear is increasing. When you see the exit point and the Limit is on the crown of the road you can "shave" off or straighten the corner safely...using only your own lane, of course!
Roadcraft has an excellent chapter on this. PH had a Ride/Drive article on it, too, didn't it, Ted?
In practice - you can straighten corners for smoothness and comfort on road - but only if you can see that they are clear, of course!
bad_roo said:
The supplement advises that the driver should look as far up the road as possible, but when I'm driving 'enthusiastically', I'm always on the lookout for changes in the road surface, debris, road kill etc that you wouldn't pick up if you concentrated solely on the vanishing point.
Quite right. Scan the road surface continually from the bonnet to the horizon (or Limit Point). Roadcraft has a chapter on "scanning" which assists in this.
A LOT of Advanced Driving is "applied Common Sense". Enthusiastic drivers often instinctively do many of the things the IAM formalises and teaches. But you'd be amazed at how uncommon Common Sense is!
Don said:
A LOT of Advanced Driving is "applied Common Sense". Enthusiastic drivers often instinctively do many of the things the IAM formalises and teaches. But you'd be amazed at how uncommon Common Sense is!
I think thats maybe my problem, sub-conciously you do alot of this anyway. I've read quite alot about cars handling and physics and know how they work, I've read alot about driving and racing and techniques, and perhaps in my mind I'm doing some of what IAM teaches anyway. Finding an apex is quite natural to me, and my line alters within my own lane as conditions vary.
It gets even more complex with known roads that are bumpy or muddy, or known to be muddy so I slow down where people may not for the potential hazard which can be bad etc.
Perhaps just having someone peer "observe" you is beneficial, to have someone comment on your driving and give you a critical point of view, which is always productive imho!!!
I just don't want comments on how I choose to drive my car, but more on how I could be a better driver relative to others perceptions.
Personally I don't care if my gear-change feel is not optimal because perhaps my index finger is in the wrong place, and I'd gain an immeasurable benefit altering my methods to fit in with someone elses idea of "ideal" way to do x y or z.
Not a rant.
Might be an idea to be "observed" one day just to see
Dave
>> Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 1st September 16:00
Don said:
bad_roo said:
The supplement advises that the driver should look as far up the road as possible, but when I'm driving 'enthusiastically', I'm always on the lookout for changes in the road surface, debris, road kill etc that you wouldn't pick up if you concentrated solely on the vanishing point.
Quite right. Scan the road surface continually from the bonnet to the horizon (or Limit Point). Roadcraft has a chapter on "scanning" which assists in this.
A LOT of Advanced Driving is "applied Common Sense". Enthusiastic drivers often instinctively do many of the things the IAM formalises and teaches. But you'd be amazed at how uncommon Common Sense is!
I refer to Common Sense at work as "Rare Sense"
Incidentally you are quite right about using the whole road if you can see it to be clear. I would just like to add that I was advised to only do this if I was alone on the road and did not have following cars, as they might not understand or appreciate what you are up to!
>> Edited by Fat Audi 80 on Thursday 1st September 17:08
PetrolTed said:
I was more concerned about the idea of bends having apexes etc. On track that may be relavent but surely sight lines are far more important to making good progress on the public road?
My RideDrive instructor said that the line (on public roads) should be chosen using these factors in strict hierarchy if you're 'using your car to its best capability'
1) line of sight
2) road condition/surface
3) 'fastest line'
Fat Audi 80 said:In the supplement Johnathan Palmer says to be able to rest your wrists on the top of the wheel and therefore your arms will be slightly bent when holding it at ten to two position. Rich...
Cant stand all this bent arm, close to the window stuff. If it was good enough for Farina and Moss, its good enough for me.
I was told in no uncertain terms by my Ridedrive instructor that I was too far from the wheel with straight arms and that they should be bent in a relaxed style..... So that is what I have been working on. It is interesting to hear that you don't all agree...!
richb said:
DJC said:
Cant stand all this bent arm, close to the window stuff. If it was good enough for Farina and Moss, its good enough for me.
I was told in no uncertain terms by my Ridedrive instructor that I was too far from the wheel with straight arms and that they should be bent in a relaxed style..... So that is what I have been working on. It is interesting to hear that you don't all agree...!
In the supplement Johnathan Palmer says to be able to rest your wrists on the top of the wheel and therefore your arms will be slightly bent when holding it at ten to two position. Rich...
I've adopted the bent arm/wrist on top of wheel technique, but realised yesterday I've been sat too close to the pedals. So I moved my seat back a notch and adjusted the wheel for reach to compensate. This is an extremely relaxing way to drive and I managed a not inconsiderable amount of mileage yesterday and felt relaxed all the time, other than my eyes were getting tired. An advantage is that my heel and toe technique has almost certainly improved as I managed to cream a couple of perfect downchanges today. It's well worth listening to the professionals.
I'm SO glad you guys had spotted this too!
I only subscribe to Evo, but a colleague of mine subscribes to Autocar and gives me his magazines 1 or 2 weeks after he's finished with them.
So, I sat down on the train on Friday night (quite excitedly if I'm geekly honest) to read the advanced driving supplement that was in one of the Autocars.
While the intent and purpose of it was correct, I think that what they gave was too greatly track-orientated (as many have pointed out). The most specific thing (which as I read I kind of cringed at!) was indeed the positioning in corners. Exactly as Don mentions above (so I won't bother reiterating).
So...to conclude all of the above, basically my post says "me too"
I only subscribe to Evo, but a colleague of mine subscribes to Autocar and gives me his magazines 1 or 2 weeks after he's finished with them.
So, I sat down on the train on Friday night (quite excitedly if I'm geekly honest) to read the advanced driving supplement that was in one of the Autocars.
While the intent and purpose of it was correct, I think that what they gave was too greatly track-orientated (as many have pointed out). The most specific thing (which as I read I kind of cringed at!) was indeed the positioning in corners. Exactly as Don mentions above (so I won't bother reiterating).
So...to conclude all of the above, basically my post says "me too"
Oh, and it did occur to me - was it a good thing or a bad thing that supplement being in there? Will they now have untrained drivers thinking they're even more indestructable...and fast...on the road?
I think, perhaps, that the result was a good one and, if nothing more, it got many people adtively thinking about their driving. Something not enough do.
I think, perhaps, that the result was a good one and, if nothing more, it got many people adtively thinking about their driving. Something not enough do.
What topics did the supplement cover?
If it was simply how to take the fastest line through corners, etc, then no - probably little actual benefit, but a few possible thousand Schueys on the road.
However, if it also covered things like awareness, vision, planning, mechanical sympathy, etc, etc ... then yeah - I would think that at least there are a few more out there who are at the very least thinking about what they're doing and what they're about to do, taking into account their surroundings, etc.
So that would be a good thing.
K
If it was simply how to take the fastest line through corners, etc, then no - probably little actual benefit, but a few possible thousand Schueys on the road.
However, if it also covered things like awareness, vision, planning, mechanical sympathy, etc, etc ... then yeah - I would think that at least there are a few more out there who are at the very least thinking about what they're doing and what they're about to do, taking into account their surroundings, etc.
So that would be a good thing.
K
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