Discussion
Hello,
Started an advanced course so I’ve been trying to really focus in on every aspect of driving. One thing I feel needs smoothened out is my upshifts.
My observer picked up that I changed gears too quickly, so he has now drummed into me to pause for a moment as I pass through neutral. Likewise, if the revs are high, to let up the gas for a moment before putting the clutch down to settle the drivetrain. Both of these things have definitely helped with smoothening things out. However, there are still a few aspects I feel I am uncertain on, and my instructor drives an auto so admits he isn’t the best person to ask. So I thought I’d ask here instead, in the hope that someone may be able to help:
•Gear skipping - I know the advanced take is to skip gears on a downshift. However, I am unsure as to the view on an upshift. A classic example would be exiting a roundabout in 2nd gear on a 40mph road - should you maintain 2nd up to 40mph to make progress then blockshift into 4th (accepting the higher revs that this entails), or would such high revs be seen as lacking smoothness and being mechanically unsympathetic, and ergo there should be an intermediate upshift to 3rd (accepting that this involves an increased input and will slow down your progress towards the speed limit)?
•When on a 30mph road, I tend to get up to speed in 2nd gear and then shift into my cruising gear. Previously this entailed a blockshift from 2nd to 4th at 30mph, which was smooth. However, I read that the advanced take is to never go above 2nd or 3rd gear when doing 30mph (source: https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/... ). However, I’ve found I really struggle to do a smooth upshift from 2nd to 3rd at 30mph. My car seems to have too much torque at 30mph in 3rd, such that if I have my foot even slightly on the gas when the clutch comes up there is a ‘jump’ forwards as the acceleration kicks in. To avoid this I find I need to bring the clutch up with my foot off the accelerator, and then gently re-introduce the accelerator once the clutch is up. The issue with this is I inevitably lose 2-3mph during the upshift - likely a combination of a natural reduction in speed due to gravity/wind resistance, and also the clutch bringing the speed down to match the engine speed with the road speed as it engages. I have a feeling these issues stem from the fact that my car wants to be in 4th at 30mph (indeed I get a little upshift arrow on the dash telling me as such). My car seems most happy to shift to 3rd at 20mph, so I suppose I could just shift at 20 instead, but I do prefer to just get up to speed briskly in 2nd then shift into my cruising gear. Not really sure what my question is here, just sort of rambling on about things I’ve noticed. I guess I’m looking for advice on whether I should: upshift at 20 instead (accepting the reduction in progress, owing to the pause in acceleration for the upshift occurring at 20mph instead of my cruising speed of 30mph); upshift into 3rd at 30, accepting the slight lurch forwards if I want to maintain speed, or accepting the reduction to 27-28mph if I want smoothness; or should I blockshift 2nd to 4th at 30, accepting being in 4th at 30 goes against the recommendations?
Thanks in advance if anybody can help, and sorry for the essay.
Started an advanced course so I’ve been trying to really focus in on every aspect of driving. One thing I feel needs smoothened out is my upshifts.
My observer picked up that I changed gears too quickly, so he has now drummed into me to pause for a moment as I pass through neutral. Likewise, if the revs are high, to let up the gas for a moment before putting the clutch down to settle the drivetrain. Both of these things have definitely helped with smoothening things out. However, there are still a few aspects I feel I am uncertain on, and my instructor drives an auto so admits he isn’t the best person to ask. So I thought I’d ask here instead, in the hope that someone may be able to help:
•Gear skipping - I know the advanced take is to skip gears on a downshift. However, I am unsure as to the view on an upshift. A classic example would be exiting a roundabout in 2nd gear on a 40mph road - should you maintain 2nd up to 40mph to make progress then blockshift into 4th (accepting the higher revs that this entails), or would such high revs be seen as lacking smoothness and being mechanically unsympathetic, and ergo there should be an intermediate upshift to 3rd (accepting that this involves an increased input and will slow down your progress towards the speed limit)?
•When on a 30mph road, I tend to get up to speed in 2nd gear and then shift into my cruising gear. Previously this entailed a blockshift from 2nd to 4th at 30mph, which was smooth. However, I read that the advanced take is to never go above 2nd or 3rd gear when doing 30mph (source: https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/... ). However, I’ve found I really struggle to do a smooth upshift from 2nd to 3rd at 30mph. My car seems to have too much torque at 30mph in 3rd, such that if I have my foot even slightly on the gas when the clutch comes up there is a ‘jump’ forwards as the acceleration kicks in. To avoid this I find I need to bring the clutch up with my foot off the accelerator, and then gently re-introduce the accelerator once the clutch is up. The issue with this is I inevitably lose 2-3mph during the upshift - likely a combination of a natural reduction in speed due to gravity/wind resistance, and also the clutch bringing the speed down to match the engine speed with the road speed as it engages. I have a feeling these issues stem from the fact that my car wants to be in 4th at 30mph (indeed I get a little upshift arrow on the dash telling me as such). My car seems most happy to shift to 3rd at 20mph, so I suppose I could just shift at 20 instead, but I do prefer to just get up to speed briskly in 2nd then shift into my cruising gear. Not really sure what my question is here, just sort of rambling on about things I’ve noticed. I guess I’m looking for advice on whether I should: upshift at 20 instead (accepting the reduction in progress, owing to the pause in acceleration for the upshift occurring at 20mph instead of my cruising speed of 30mph); upshift into 3rd at 30, accepting the slight lurch forwards if I want to maintain speed, or accepting the reduction to 27-28mph if I want smoothness; or should I blockshift 2nd to 4th at 30, accepting being in 4th at 30 goes against the recommendations?
Thanks in advance if anybody can help, and sorry for the essay.
Edited by Scott OSRS on Friday 28th July 23:34
Scott OSRS said:
Hello,
I read that the advanced take is to never go above 2nd or 3rd gear when doing 30mph (source: https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/... ).
Really? Ask your observer what he/she does in their automatic? I doubt very much they lock it in a lower ratio and equally doubt it will automatically select something as low as third. I'd be interested to know if the opinion stated on that link represents IAM policy or just that; someone's opinion?I read that the advanced take is to never go above 2nd or 3rd gear when doing 30mph (source: https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/... ).
On a HPC day many years ago I went through the torture of the exercise I describe...
Keep your speed to 30mph. Don't lose or gain speed.
Go all through gears 1-4. Up and down. Repeatedly (oh god it went on forever). The aim was to develop a beautiful shift. No weight transfer, nothing your passengers would notice.
If you can master this, you're all good.
I hated the exercise... Still now though a good decade later I do it for my own amusement sometimes when on a clear, straight road.
Keep your speed to 30mph. Don't lose or gain speed.
Go all through gears 1-4. Up and down. Repeatedly (oh god it went on forever). The aim was to develop a beautiful shift. No weight transfer, nothing your passengers would notice.
If you can master this, you're all good.
I hated the exercise... Still now though a good decade later I do it for my own amusement sometimes when on a clear, straight road.
popeyewhite said:
I'm surprised these basic skills weren't learnt before you took your test OP.
I don’t think block-changing is taught for a test.On my previous E36 straight six N/Asp, I would go from 5th to 3rd to get through a fast roundabout on a fast stretch of road. Accelerate out and block-change to 5th (top) when the limit (posted or practical) was reached.
Gear skipping (up): Yes, if you need the more brisk acceleration of 2nd gear then stay in 2nd up to 40mph, then block change up to 4th. This costs more in fuel, so these days, with the eco considerations, use 3rd as well, then 4th.
30 mph roads: Yes, 3rd gear can be maintained to increase control. It's not black and white. Sometimes 4th is ok.
A lot depends on the car. Technology has changed since I learned "The System" in the 1990s, and tweaks have been made. e.g. You no longer have to prepare to accelerate hard at the change of speed limit.
e.g. Some cars are geared differently now.
My pet hate is, as you describe, cars with engine characteristics which fight my attempts are smoothness, typically diesels, but increasingly now it's petrol turbos. It's hard to obtain a smooth delivery of power. So yes, you may need to change up at 27 instead of 30 because the manufacturers have made it that way.
My best advice is to consider the rules as shades of grey, whereas it used to be much more black and white. Cars vary a lot more than they used to.
30 mph roads: Yes, 3rd gear can be maintained to increase control. It's not black and white. Sometimes 4th is ok.
A lot depends on the car. Technology has changed since I learned "The System" in the 1990s, and tweaks have been made. e.g. You no longer have to prepare to accelerate hard at the change of speed limit.
e.g. Some cars are geared differently now.
My pet hate is, as you describe, cars with engine characteristics which fight my attempts are smoothness, typically diesels, but increasingly now it's petrol turbos. It's hard to obtain a smooth delivery of power. So yes, you may need to change up at 27 instead of 30 because the manufacturers have made it that way.
My best advice is to consider the rules as shades of grey, whereas it used to be much more black and white. Cars vary a lot more than they used to.
I find that for many new cars, smooth upshifts are very difficult to achieve due to 'rev hang', which prevents the engine from slowing for a brief period of time when the clutch pedal is depressed. This means that the revs are still too high when the next gear is selected and clutch re engaged, so it jolts. Anyone used to a more natural gearshift will find this frustrating, as it means to achieve a smooth shift you have to slow down the process.
The solution is to buy older cars if manual, or endure the rev hang. Some cars could be modified to remove it through software changes I think.
The solution is to buy older cars if manual, or endure the rev hang. Some cars could be modified to remove it through software changes I think.
Zeeky said:
30mph in 1st? Just checking before I give it a go. 
Yep, it was possible in the car I was in.Obviously, I shouldn't need to tell somebody or anybody talking about advanced driving that if your car can't do that then use 2/3/4 and 5 if appropriate.
The point of the exercise I hope wasn't lost you.
Unless you're playing me up you cheeky monkey
I'm not qualified at all when it comes to advanced driving, but my main car is a Peugeot 306 GTI-6 with six very close ratios. In normal driving when accelerating onto a road I'll generally go 2nd to 4th to 6th, or 3rd to 5th to 6th, depending where I started off. The close ratios are great when pressing on but the engine is flexible enough for them to be unnecessary in day-to-day driving.
In comparison, with my old Golf TDI - with its tall gearing and narrow power band - it just made sense to up-shift one gear at a time.
It probably varies from car to car, and while an advanced driving instructor would probably be unimpressed with my driving, I think that once you're familiar with a car's gear ratios and power delivery, you'll know what feels right.
In comparison, with my old Golf TDI - with its tall gearing and narrow power band - it just made sense to up-shift one gear at a time.
It probably varies from car to car, and while an advanced driving instructor would probably be unimpressed with my driving, I think that once you're familiar with a car's gear ratios and power delivery, you'll know what feels right.
Smollet said:
popeyewhite said:
Pica-Pica said:
I don’t think block-changing is taught for a test.
in my day it was called using a gearbox properly. If you need to miss a gear then miss a gear. Jeez.Lots has already been covered, but don’t get too hung up on the “3rd for 30mph” which I know a lot of observers taught. The main thing is that you are in a gear that isn’t labouring the engine and suitable for the current situation. If the situation changes, you run through the System and pick the correct gear for that situation (that may or may not be a block change up/down the box).
Rev-matching is the key to smoothness on downchanges and I think just comes with practice. With my associates, I’d find a long quiet stretch of road, get them up to speed and then call out random gears for them to move to, and for added fun make them slow down the changes so that they had to consciously hold the revs at the right point rather than relying on timing the revs falling and rushing slotting in the gear.
For upchanges, it feels more natural (and comfortable as a passenger) to use more of the rev range before changing and I don’t think that would ever be classed as lacking mechanical sympathy unless you were bouncing it off the limiter!
Chris
Rev-matching is the key to smoothness on downchanges and I think just comes with practice. With my associates, I’d find a long quiet stretch of road, get them up to speed and then call out random gears for them to move to, and for added fun make them slow down the changes so that they had to consciously hold the revs at the right point rather than relying on timing the revs falling and rushing slotting in the gear.
For upchanges, it feels more natural (and comfortable as a passenger) to use more of the rev range before changing and I don’t think that would ever be classed as lacking mechanical sympathy unless you were bouncing it off the limiter!
Chris
Try this Reg Local video, 5 tips on good gear changing from a police advanced instructor:
https://youtu.be/oM25BCDVHSw
3rd for 30 was a suggestion to help drivers who were having difficulty keeping down to 30 in 30 limits. In most manual cars 40 is pleasant and more economical at 30, but 3rd may be more suitable if you're likely to need to vary the speed downwards or there is a significant slope.
In addition to trying to match the revs accurately, consider letting the clutch out past the biting point more slowly than you push it down (I think that is suggested in the linked video). Passengers should not feel the clutch engaging at any time whether up or down.
I wouldn't worry about a drop of 2 or 3 mph.
Block changing makes sense up or down - change from whatever gear you are in to the most suitable for your new situation. In my case, 2nd to 4th and 3rd to 5th are particularly common, and vice versa. The more gears you skip, the more difficult it is to make the rev match accurate. (In a previous large engined car I used to do 1st to 6th as a fun thing - I think it made about 350 lb ft at 1,000 rpm).
https://youtu.be/oM25BCDVHSw
3rd for 30 was a suggestion to help drivers who were having difficulty keeping down to 30 in 30 limits. In most manual cars 40 is pleasant and more economical at 30, but 3rd may be more suitable if you're likely to need to vary the speed downwards or there is a significant slope.
In addition to trying to match the revs accurately, consider letting the clutch out past the biting point more slowly than you push it down (I think that is suggested in the linked video). Passengers should not feel the clutch engaging at any time whether up or down.
I wouldn't worry about a drop of 2 or 3 mph.
Block changing makes sense up or down - change from whatever gear you are in to the most suitable for your new situation. In my case, 2nd to 4th and 3rd to 5th are particularly common, and vice versa. The more gears you skip, the more difficult it is to make the rev match accurate. (In a previous large engined car I used to do 1st to 6th as a fun thing - I think it made about 350 lb ft at 1,000 rpm).
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