What car to practice heel toe and improve my driving?
Discussion
Hi all
I have put a deposit on the 2024 Caterham Academy. I am super excited about it. Problem is I am a middle aged man with little to no track experience who has been driving electric cars and automatic MPVs for the past 5 years.
So in all likely hood I will suck, and I want to do better. My plan is to buy a car to practice proper driving in, including the occasional track day. But a car with a roof that I can use as daily transport preferably with 4 seats. Budget wise could probably stretch up to 20k but my preference would be about 5k. An Rx8 is my initial thoughts...
Does the forum think this is a good idea? What car should I buy? Is there anything else I should do?
I have put a deposit on the 2024 Caterham Academy. I am super excited about it. Problem is I am a middle aged man with little to no track experience who has been driving electric cars and automatic MPVs for the past 5 years.
So in all likely hood I will suck, and I want to do better. My plan is to buy a car to practice proper driving in, including the occasional track day. But a car with a roof that I can use as daily transport preferably with 4 seats. Budget wise could probably stretch up to 20k but my preference would be about 5k. An Rx8 is my initial thoughts...
Does the forum think this is a good idea? What car should I buy? Is there anything else I should do?
philoio said:
Hi all
I have put a deposit on the 2024 Caterham Academy. I am super excited about it. Problem is I am a middle aged man with little to no track experience who has been driving electric cars and automatic MPVs for the past 5 years.
So in all likely hood I will suck, and I want to do better. My plan is to buy a car to practice proper driving in, including the occasional track day. But a car with a roof that I can use as daily transport preferably with 4 seats. Budget wise could probably stretch up to 20k but my preference would be about 5k. An Rx8 is my initial thoughts...
Does the forum think this is a good idea? What car should I buy? Is there anything else I should do?
One of the things I really liked about my TVR Chimaera was the ability to quickly and easily adjust the relative pedal heights of the brake and accelerator. Starting out with Heel and Toe driving is so much easier if you can adjust these to suit, whereas many other cars you're kind of stuck with the manufacturer's set-up, which is rarely ideal.I have put a deposit on the 2024 Caterham Academy. I am super excited about it. Problem is I am a middle aged man with little to no track experience who has been driving electric cars and automatic MPVs for the past 5 years.
So in all likely hood I will suck, and I want to do better. My plan is to buy a car to practice proper driving in, including the occasional track day. But a car with a roof that I can use as daily transport preferably with 4 seats. Budget wise could probably stretch up to 20k but my preference would be about 5k. An Rx8 is my initial thoughts...
Does the forum think this is a good idea? What car should I buy? Is there anything else I should do?
I guess there will be others where you can do this too (and if you can't, contorting your foot into the perfect position whilst keeping an even pressure on the brake pedal is a good learning experience) but it could be something to look for.
Congratulations.
Have you driven a Caterham similar to the one you will be using? My experience of Caterhams is that there is a very light flywheel with revs blipping and dropping very rapidly. Familiarisation would be best done in a car which has a similar gearchange.
A car which comes to mind but fails your 4 seat test is an MX5.
Incidentally, H & T is easiest when braking hard as happens in track driving so that's a plus for you. Personally, I have rarely or never encountered a car with pedals I cannot use for H & T. A Caterham required fairly narrow shoes!
Have you driven a Caterham similar to the one you will be using? My experience of Caterhams is that there is a very light flywheel with revs blipping and dropping very rapidly. Familiarisation would be best done in a car which has a similar gearchange.
A car which comes to mind but fails your 4 seat test is an MX5.
Incidentally, H & T is easiest when braking hard as happens in track driving so that's a plus for you. Personally, I have rarely or never encountered a car with pedals I cannot use for H & T. A Caterham required fairly narrow shoes!
TBH very little to nothing at all can be learned about driving a Caterham competitively in a normal car on the road. I’d spend whatever budget you have on track experience. Even simulator time would be more useful, enabling you to learn the circuits.
Edited by HustleRussell on Tuesday 6th December 23:28
HustleRussell said:
TBH very little to nothing at all can be learned about driving a Caterham competitively in a normal car on the road. I’d spend whatever budget you have on track experience. Even simulator time would be more useful, enabling you to learn the circuits.
He is after a suitable manual car for track days .....Edited by HustleRussell on Tuesday 6th December 23:28
You seem to have described.. a hot hatch?
https://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features/h...
(Though not on that list, I'd probably say an EP3 / FN2 / Clio 182 or similar.)
An RX8 Is probably a dubious choice for easy daily transport given the nuances of the rotary engine; A slightly older (Analogue) NA Hot hatch would be a good choice.
Admittedly, They're generally not RWD, but low prices and easy / affordable upkeep means more track time without breaking the bank.
https://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features/h...
(Though not on that list, I'd probably say an EP3 / FN2 / Clio 182 or similar.)
An RX8 Is probably a dubious choice for easy daily transport given the nuances of the rotary engine; A slightly older (Analogue) NA Hot hatch would be a good choice.
Admittedly, They're generally not RWD, but low prices and easy / affordable upkeep means more track time without breaking the bank.
HustleRussell said:
TBH very little to nothing at all can be learned about driving a Caterham competitively in a normal car on the road. I’d spend whatever budget you have on track experience. Even simulator time would be more useful, enabling you to learn the circuits.
Must admit this was in the back of my mind. I have driven a Caterham a few times before so understand how it compares (or rather does not) to most cars. Edited by HustleRussell on Tuesday 6th December 23:28
So I am hearing spend budget on a simulator and track time rather than a better car... At 5ish k are there cars better than an rx8 that can carry 2 small people in the back and be good for a bit of track time? Rotaries don't worry me had an RX7 and RX8 before.
ta, Phil
philoio said:
HustleRussell said:
TBH very little to nothing at all can be learned about driving a Caterham competitively in a normal car on the road. I’d spend whatever budget you have on track experience. Even simulator time would be more useful, enabling you to learn the circuits.
Must admit this was in the back of my mind. I have driven a Caterham a few times before so understand how it compares (or rather does not) to most cars. So I am hearing spend budget on a simulator and track time rather than a better car... At 5ish k are there cars better than an rx8 that can carry 2 small people in the back and be good for a bit of track time? Rotaries don't worry me had an RX7 and RX8 before.
ta, Phil
Forewarned is forearmed!
Trackdays are definitely worthwhile. Likewise sim time on the courses which appear on the calendar.
Driving a manual car on the road, practicing heel & toe etc- less helpful.
Seems to me that heel & toe honestly isn't worth a lot in the dry, if anything at all. It's a tiny driving finesse not a fundament of circuit driving. You can heel & toe for England and still be whole seconds slower than a person who simply happens to know the circuit and the lines. Anyway you don't really 'heel & toe' in a Caterham- you can't get a heel anwhere near a pedal! It's more 'ball & toe'. Honestly it's a driving habit which I learned in a Caterham on the road and have subsequently tried to de-program from in racing. Similarly left-foot braking- something I used to think would be a useful skill in the toolbox.
P.S. Don't ask me how these non-heel & toe people are downshifting! All I know is that synchros and selector forks can be replaced...
Sorry no specific advice on which car to buy, I guess what I'm saying is focus your effort on track, even if instead of buying a car you hire a track car, go karting, give that money to an instructor, spend it on simulator time etc.
Maybe a new thread in the 'club racing' sub-forum?
No production car is anything like a Caterham!
Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 7th December 13:45
HustleRussell said:
Seems to me that heel & toe honestly isn't worth a lot in the dry, if anything at all. It's a tiny driving finesse not a fundament of circuit driving. You can heel & toe for England and still be whole seconds slower than a person who simply happens to know the circuit and the lines. Anyway you don't really 'heel & toe' in a Caterham- you can't get a heel anwhere near a pedal! It's more 'ball & toe'. Honestly it's a driving habit which I learned in a Caterham on the road and have subsequently tried to de-program from in racing. Similarly left-foot braking- something I used to think would be a useful skill in the toolbox.
P.S. Don't ask me how these non-heel & toe people are downshifting! All I know is that synchros and selector forks can be replaced...
Sorry no specific advice on which car to buy, I guess what I'm saying is focus your effort on track, even if instead of buying a car you hire a track car, go karting, give that money to an instructor, spend it on simulator time etc.
Maybe a new thread in the 'club racing' sub-forum?
No production car is anything like a Caterham!
Why would you try to deprogram yourself from doing it whilst racing? P.S. Don't ask me how these non-heel & toe people are downshifting! All I know is that synchros and selector forks can be replaced...
Sorry no specific advice on which car to buy, I guess what I'm saying is focus your effort on track, even if instead of buying a car you hire a track car, go karting, give that money to an instructor, spend it on simulator time etc.
Maybe a new thread in the 'club racing' sub-forum?
No production car is anything like a Caterham!
Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 7th December 13:45
I’m with HustleRussell on this - a seven-esque car is nothing like any ‘normal’ car, even something sporty and RWD
You could spend ages learning how to drive a good track day car and very little of what you’ll learn about the dynamics of the car will be of much use in a Seven.
However, general circuit driving technique will be really useful, regardless of the car. I’ve done a few track days in various cars and the biggest drop in lap times came from 45 minutes tuition at Bedford Autodrome. By the end of the session, I was three or four seconds a lap faster AND I stopped chewing through tyres.
FWIW, I’ve driven all sorts on track, including single-seaters and ‘LM’ cars at Bedford, through my own F355 many years ago, then a series of turbo-nutter Fiat Coupes, end eventually my 170bhp Zetec-powered Westfield. By far the most enjoyable car (road or track) was the Westie- it’s just so raw and connected.
The only way you’re going to get used to a Caterham is to drive a Caterham, and even then, the range of set-up options means that two identical looking cars can behave completely differently.
All good fun though - you’ll enjoy it.
You could spend ages learning how to drive a good track day car and very little of what you’ll learn about the dynamics of the car will be of much use in a Seven.
However, general circuit driving technique will be really useful, regardless of the car. I’ve done a few track days in various cars and the biggest drop in lap times came from 45 minutes tuition at Bedford Autodrome. By the end of the session, I was three or four seconds a lap faster AND I stopped chewing through tyres.
FWIW, I’ve driven all sorts on track, including single-seaters and ‘LM’ cars at Bedford, through my own F355 many years ago, then a series of turbo-nutter Fiat Coupes, end eventually my 170bhp Zetec-powered Westfield. By far the most enjoyable car (road or track) was the Westie- it’s just so raw and connected.
The only way you’re going to get used to a Caterham is to drive a Caterham, and even then, the range of set-up options means that two identical looking cars can behave completely differently.
All good fun though - you’ll enjoy it.
Ford Mondeo? The Mark Threes have a really big accelerator pedal, which is good if you aren't that flexible. Otherwise get practising hip and ankle rotation; ideally you want to be able to turn your right foot sideways to allow the most precise control of both pedals simultaneously.
Beware certain new cars: they cut the power when the brakes are applied regardless of accelerator position, so heeling and toeing will be useless.
Beware certain new cars: they cut the power when the brakes are applied regardless of accelerator position, so heeling and toeing will be useless.
Missy Charm said:
get practising hip and ankle rotation; ideally you want to be able to turn your right foot sideways to allow the most precise control of both pedals simultaneously.
Not in a Caterham. Heel & toe is more ‘ball & toe’ in a Caterham, all in the ankle. No room to swing a heel! Redline88 said:
Why would you try to deprogram yourself from doing it whilst racing?
I do it habitually in any corner where I’m braking and downshifting. However in the dry I feel like it’s not always the fastest way for all corners. I don’t really understand how non- heel & toe’rs are doing it. I feel like in some scenarios my insistence on h & t causes my braking duration to be too long and my effort too low as my foot is fixed on the brake pedal until the downshift(s) are done. I feel like some corners and some situations I’d be better off dedicating my right foot entirely to braking and somehow crashing down the gears without the blip. Not a tool I have in my toolbox. Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 18th January 21:17
t headlights but easily sorted
300bhp/ton said:
What sort of racing sims are there these days?
Im no expert but I am thinking a PC, pedals, wheel and a seat; not a moving sim. https://simracingcockpit.com/sim-racing-guide/Chainsaw Rebuild said:
300bhp/ton said:
What sort of racing sims are there these days?
Im no expert but I am thinking a PC, pedals, wheel and a seat; not a moving sim. https://simracingcockpit.com/sim-racing-guide/
. I was just wondering if a sim setup is properly useful in preparing for races, do you "train" on the sim a lot before a race etc. Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff