Tailgating

[TomyAFX]

The initial message was deleted from this topic on 12 December 2023 at 21:27

[Salted_Peanut]

The authorities have focused on speed to the exclusion of tailgating. I’d feel safer with more “tailgating cameras” than speed cameras.

How many “speeding” crashes were actually caused by the inability to stop in the distance the driver could see to be clear?

On a related note, why isn’t the vanishing point (a.k.a. Limit Point) introduced to people when they learn to drive?

[johnao]

Salted_Peanut said:

… On a related note, why isn’t the vanishing point (a.k.a. Limit Point) introduced to people when they learn to drive?

A very good question. I asked the very same question to a senior member of the DVLA, she was responsible for overseeing the the driving test examiners in her region, her response was… “Oh no, we’re not going to do that, we don’t want to be teaching people to drive fast”. She had no idea what I was talking about, sad really.

But it should be taught to learners. I had an IAM associate who was in his early twenties, he had no idea about how to correctly judge speed on the approach to a bend. He wasn’t driving recklessly fast, he just had no idea how to do it. I decided very early on during our first observed drive to introduce limit point technique. Within ten minutes, and a dozen bends, he’d got the hang of it. To quote his exact words… “Wow, this is so much better, why wasn’t I taught this for my driving test? This is so much better than just going round on a wing and a prayer.”

“Winging it and praying” nicely sums up much of the standard of driving out there. However, advanced driver training only removes the “winging” element… I’m still having to pray that nobody crashes into me!!!

[CoolHands]

Perhaps you’re dawdling and irritating people if they’ve overtaken you eg just before roadworks. Sometimes I overtake some nobber cos they’re slow plodders and you know they’re going to fk your journey up, so if I get the opportunity I go past them even at what might appear to them to be a pointless place. I’m sure they talk about me as you are talking about whoever up there ^

[TomyAFX]

CoolHands said:

Perhaps you’re dawdling and irritating people if they’ve overtaken you eg just before roadworks. Sometimes I overtake some nobber cos they’re slow plodders and you know they’re going to fk your journey up, so if I get the opportunity I go past them even at what might appear to them to be a pointless place. I’m sure they talk about me as you are talking about whoever up there ^

That's certainly a perspective. One which you, and others are entitled to.

I bring to the table 100s of thousands of miles, many of which are in no way 'dawdling'. If there is a flow of traffic, I see no particular gain in sniffing the zorst of the car in front.

Some people seem to enjoy wearing their clutch, pads, and fuel. And all the best to them.

Patience is a virtue, Virtue is a grace. Grace is a little girl Who would not wash her face.

I'm absolutely of a mind that saving 1 second here and there adds up. You do that 5 days a week, 261 days a year. It really does. But some people really need to calm their britches.

To be clear. My gripe is the short-sighted. In vehicular planning terms. If I'm holding you up then crack on. Bar Max, Space-X, and the value of the pound, I would doubt I'm the cork in the bottle.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I've been flashed and overtaken before whilst driving at 20mph through a speed camera in a London borough. There is just an unnecessary craving to rush everywhere at 1,000mph for some people, like a drug they constantly crave, they must rush and look for confrontation at all points of their journey.

Once you've cracked and understood the limit point, I think it just unlocks another level of driving, for both safety and enjoyment. I had some money swilling around a few years ago after selling a car and decided to start my midlife crisis early and do my bike licence. In the first minutes of the very first classroom lesson, the fundamentals of the limit point were discussed -- it's essential for bike riding.

[Brassblaster]

TomyAFX said:

I'm absolutely of a mind that saving 1 second here and there adds up. You do that 5 days a week, 261 days a year. It really does. But some people really need to calm their britches.

Absolutely - and unfortunately too many drivers don't understand that being 1m/5m further up the road in a queue isn't saving even a second here or there... Or in short, there's no time savings to be adding up in this sense by sitting up the chuff of the car in front.

Only reason I can see for overtaking in that circumstance is if you'd been following that car a while and it had been actually dawdling - by which I mean not making reasonable progress when it was possible to make... Still, 99 times in a hundred, I'll just wait for a better opportunity to pass later, sods law one of you turns off otherwise.

[R56Cooper]

johnao said:

Salted_Peanut said:

… On a related note, why isn’t the vanishing point (a.k.a. Limit Point) introduced to people when they learn to drive?

A very good question. I asked the very same question to a senior member of the DVLA, she was responsible for overseeing the the driving test examiners in her region, her response was… “Oh no, we’re not going to do that, we don’t want to be teaching people to drive fast”. She had no idea what I was talking about, sad really.

But it should be taught to learners. I had an IAM associate who was in his early twenties, he had no idea about how to correctly judge speed on the approach to a bend. He wasn’t driving recklessly fast, he just had no idea how to do it. I decided very early on during our first observed drive to introduce limit point technique. Within ten minutes, and a dozen bends, he’d got the hang of it. To quote his exact words… “Wow, this is so much better, why wasn’t I taught this for my driving test? This is so much better than just going round on a wing and a prayer.”

“Winging it and praying” nicely sums up much of the standard of driving out there. However, advanced driver training only removes the “winging” element… I’m still having to pray that nobody crashes into me!!!

I had the same reaction when I learned about it. In principle you will never get caught out on a blind bend. It has to be worth teaching, and as you note, it has nothing to do with going quickly.

[Bob-iylho]

My Dad had this attitude, re tailgaters, excessive speed etc. My god he was a bad driver, doing ridiculously low speeds and not daring to pull out. Never kept up with the flow of traffic and generally was a road nuisance. I think he was the type of driver which finally broke the anger bubble in other drivers.

Don't know what OP's driving is like but people not keeping up with the flow of traffic drives me nuts.

[MakaveliX]

When anyone tailgates me and we're going the speed limit, if it's safe to do so I just pull over and let them past. Wouldn't want to risk applying my brakes and them going into me

[7mike]

Bob-iylho said:

My Dad had this attitude, re tailgaters, excessive speed etc. My god he was a bad driver, doing ridiculously low speeds and not daring to pull out. Never kept up with the flow of traffic and generally was a road nuisance. I think he was the type of driver which finally broke the anger bubble in other drivers.

Don't know what OP's driving is like but people not keeping up with the flow of traffic drives me nuts.

Okay, bored so I'll bite. What happens when the flow reaches a fixed hazard? Let's say a roundabout for instance; the flow stops (of course it does, haven't you read all the threads moaning about how no one knows how to use roundabouts?). Then you stop at the back of the queue, loosing all those valuable extra seconds you think you have been banking like nectar points.

You've just wasted fuel stopping and starting and increased risk from following traffic (they find it easier to smack into the back of stationary objects).

I've just got back from a joyous trip around the M60, if the cretins flooring it to fill every bit of space ahead of them thought about it for a moment, they'd realise, they are the reason the flow has ground to a halt in the first place

[nismo48]

Bob-iylho said:

My Dad had this attitude, re tailgaters, excessive speed etc. My god he was a bad driver, doing ridiculously low speeds and not daring to pull out. Never kept up with the flow of traffic and generally was a road nuisance. I think he was the type of driver which finally broke the anger bubble in other drivers.

Don't know what OP's driving is like but people not keeping up with the flow of traffic drives me nuts.

+1 Agree..potentially a big cause of anger and near misses

[911hope]

Bob-iylho said:

My Dad had this attitude, re tailgaters, excessive speed etc. My god he was a bad driver, doing ridiculously low speeds and not daring to pull out. Never kept up with the flow of traffic and generally was a road nuisance. I think he was the type of driver which finally broke the anger bubble in other drivers.

Don't know what OP's driving is like but people not keeping up with the flow of traffic drives me nuts.

Just to be clear, are you advocating tailgating people like your dad?

[911hope]

nismo48 said:

Bob-iylho said:

My Dad had this attitude, re tailgaters, excessive speed etc. My god he was a bad driver, doing ridiculously low speeds and not daring to pull out. Never kept up with the flow of traffic and generally was a road nuisance. I think he was the type of driver which finally broke the anger bubble in other drivers.

Don't know what OP's driving is like but people not keeping up with the flow of traffic drives me nuts.

+1 Agree..potentially a big cause of anger and near misses

Slow inappropriate driving is a hazard for sure. But people need to take responsibility for how they respond to it. Getting angry won't change anything.

[911hope]

TomyAFX said:

Obvs this has been discussed to death for literally decades.

Lately though the numbnuts sitting inches off my rear seem to have escalated somewhat.

I don't think the current 'new' generation of drivers ever really know how hard braking works. If they've never tested the limit handling of their vehicle it seems the default is to massively mis-estimate the vehicles ability to stop / corner / steer aggressively.

And don't get me started on drivers being unable to see beyond one car ahead of them.

I've been overtaken in town, in a 20mph, in a line of traffic, approaching roadworks. To me, unfathomable.

fking people. Ugh. Calm yourselves.

Tailgating in the outside lane of a motorway is the most common. You will see it on every journey without fail.

In some cases it is basically stupidity and in some cases it is a bullying technique...scare the car in front out of your path, even if they are being held up by traffic in front. If they move down a lane to feel safe, accelerate hard to the back of the next car and slam your brakes on. Repeat...repeat and gain actually nothing off your journey time.

Unfortunately, doing the right thing for your own safety (getting these morons off your bumper) does reinforce their behaviour.

So many stupid behaviours are without an actual benefit.

[R56Cooper]

911hope said:

TomyAFX said:

Obvs this has been discussed to death for literally decades.

Lately though the numbnuts sitting inches off my rear seem to have escalated somewhat.

I don't think the current 'new' generation of drivers ever really know how hard braking works. If they've never tested the limit handling of their vehicle it seems the default is to massively mis-estimate the vehicles ability to stop / corner / steer aggressively.

And don't get me started on drivers being unable to see beyond one car ahead of them.

I've been overtaken in town, in a 20mph, in a line of traffic, approaching roadworks. To me, unfathomable.

fking people. Ugh. Calm yourselves.

Tailgating in the outside lane of a motorway is the most common. You will see it on every journey without fail.

In some cases it is basically stupidity and in some cases it is a bullying technique...scare the car in front out of your path, even if they are being held up by traffic in front. If they move down a lane to feel safe, accelerate hard to the back of the next car and slam your brakes on. Repeat...repeat and gain actually nothing off your journey time.

Unfortunately, doing the right thing for your own safety (getting these morons off your bumper) does reinforce their behaviour.

So many stupid behaviours are without an actual benefit.

Are there any manufacturer solutions to address tailgating?

Thinking it shouldn't be hard to have a sensor that monitors the car in front and flashes up with "WARNING - BACK OFF" on the dashboard, so the driver knows they are too close.

Probably wouldn't be a selling point as most people can't accept criticism, especially about their driving.

[Dashnine]

R56Cooper said:

Are there any manufacturer solutions to address tailgating?

Thinking it shouldn't be hard to have a sensor that monitors the car in front and flashes up with "WARNING - BACK OFF" on the dashboard, so the driver knows they are too close.

Probably wouldn't be a selling point as most people can't accept criticism, especially about their driving.

My car (Cupra Formentor) has adaptive cruise and if you're not on cruise (when it will hold the 2 second or so gap itself) and you're within that 2 second gap it will flash a 'too close' icon on the screen.

[768]

R56Cooper said:

Are there any manufacturer solutions to address tailgating?

Thinking it shouldn't be hard to have a sensor that monitors the car in front and flashes up with "WARNING - BACK OFF" on the dashboard, so the driver knows they are too close.

Probably wouldn't be a selling point as most people can't accept criticism, especially about their driving.

There is a manufacturer solution, some models of car are fitted with a left indicator, a steering wheel and an accelerator pedal that can be raised to gradually reduce speed. I've found it works every time.

You're right though, it isn't a selling point because most people can't accept criticism, especially about their driving.

[MC Bodge]

Tailgating is ridiculous behaviour.

TomyAFX said:

There really is something to be said for ttting around over hump bridges, blind bends gravel car parks.

The feel and understanding for what ones vehicle is capable (or not) of is priceless.

Agreed. The people I know who are good drivers in their 30s, 40s onwards are the people who drove fast, sought out gravel and snow to drive on, and, OK, maybe crashed a bit in their youth, but wanted to learn about what a car could (and couldn't do) and then learn more about good driving. They also seem to have ridden motorbikes.

They have some understanding of the mechanics of driving and don't panic when it all becomes a bit loose.

I know it isn't road driving, but if you go to a social karting event (typically low powered, automatic clutch, karts), you quickly see who does and who doesn't have a clue about the mechanics of driving.

Edited by MC Bodge on Tuesday 6th December 14:04

[MC Bodge]

768 said:

most people can't accept criticism, especially about their driving.

I do wonder if that is now becoming out-dated.

I don't think that many people see it as I/we do. Possibly like horsemanship was once a life skill.