Change of carriageway
Discussion
|https://thumbsnap.com/te7CyKmy[/url]second one is a single carriageway with 4 lanes
There's one of those near Alcester
https://goo.gl/maps/QFBri8CZjqrCMtZq5
= 60mph
There's one of those near Alcester
https://goo.gl/maps/QFBri8CZjqrCMtZq5
= 60mph
Edited by saaby93 on Friday 4th November 22:44
We have this one locally which has caused a little controversy in the past. Although I don't personally know anyone who's been caught out by it, apparently fixed penalty notices are given out on a fairly regular basis to drivers doing 70 because it's not a proper dual carriageway and the limit is 60.
Someone on another forum asked for an official explanation and got the following answer.
OK, as promised, here is the official reply to my query regarding the camera under discussion. *******************************************
Thank you for your email
With regards to the camera site at A1 BERWICK, B6461 PAXTON, the road is classified as a single carriage way. The central road fixture at the site is to act as a refuge for vehicles turning right and not for the purposes of dualling the carriage way. It is an engineering solution to protect turning traffic and the Highways Agency continues to classify this stretch of road as a single carriage way.
I hope this addresses your query.
Regards,
Jeremy Forsberg
Communications Manager
Safe Speed for Life
Seems like a pretty bulls
t answer if you ask me.
Someone on another forum asked for an official explanation and got the following answer.
OK, as promised, here is the official reply to my query regarding the camera under discussion. *******************************************
Thank you for your email
With regards to the camera site at A1 BERWICK, B6461 PAXTON, the road is classified as a single carriage way. The central road fixture at the site is to act as a refuge for vehicles turning right and not for the purposes of dualling the carriage way. It is an engineering solution to protect turning traffic and the Highways Agency continues to classify this stretch of road as a single carriage way.
I hope this addresses your query.
Regards,
Jeremy Forsberg
Communications Manager
Safe Speed for Life
Seems like a pretty bulls
t answer if you ask me.Desiderata said:
We have this one locally which has caused a little controversy in the past. Although I don't personally know anyone who's been caught out by it, apparently fixed penalty notices are given out on a fairly regular basis to drivers doing 70 because it's not a proper dual carriageway and the limit is 60.
Someone on another forum asked for an official explanation and got the following answer.
OK, as promised, here is the official reply to my query regarding the camera under discussion. *******************************************
Thank you for your email
With regards to the camera site at A1 BERWICK, B6461 PAXTON, the road is classified as a single carriage way. The central road fixture at the site is to act as a refuge for vehicles turning right and not for the purposes of dualling the carriage way. It is an engineering solution to protect turning traffic and the Highways Agency continues to classify this stretch of road as a single carriage way.
I hope this addresses your query.
Regards,
Jeremy Forsberg
Communications Manager
Safe Speed for Life
Seems like a pretty bullst answer if you ask me.
That's rubbish Someone on another forum asked for an official explanation and got the following answer.
OK, as promised, here is the official reply to my query regarding the camera under discussion. *******************************************
Thank you for your email
With regards to the camera site at A1 BERWICK, B6461 PAXTON, the road is classified as a single carriage way. The central road fixture at the site is to act as a refuge for vehicles turning right and not for the purposes of dualling the carriage way. It is an engineering solution to protect turning traffic and the Highways Agency continues to classify this stretch of road as a single carriage way.
I hope this addresses your query.
Regards,
Jeremy Forsberg
Communications Manager
Safe Speed for Life
Seems like a pretty bulls
t answer if you ask me.Somewhere in this forum is a listing from maybe 10 years ago where authorities were asked to review their speed limits. Where there were small sections of separate carriageways where there was turning traffic the speed limit was quoted as being 70mph.
(not where there were just traffic islands though)
The law is pretty straight forward.
It's what it is that counts, not how it's classified.
Definitely two carriageways - camera = how does Jeremy get paid?
Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 5th November 09:09
-
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?...
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?...
FIF on Honest John said:
Right I think this as far as we are going to get with this one.
Had a nice conversation with a very helpful and knowledgeable chap from Road Policy Unit DfT, somehow connected with office of the Deputy PM, old street pugilist 2 Jags himself. Suspect it would be difficult to go much higher with this one.
It appears that we have already discovered and discussed the existing legislation in place covering dual carriageways in this thread.
For those unwilling to scroll back up to the top the salient points are as follows.
Traffic Signs and General Directions Regulations 2002
(available here >> www.tinyurl.com/pk0j )
say the following
Interpretation - general
4. In these Regulations unless the context otherwise requires -
"dual carriageway road" means a road which comprises a central reservation and "all-purpose dual carriageway road" means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway;
and
"central reservation" means -
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
Plus the part of the RTRA 1984 which deal with speed limits says
"2)Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
Schedule 6 Part 1V
'dual carriageway road' - means a road part of which consists of a central reservation to seperate a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in one direction from a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in the opposite direction"
The Act doesn't define central reservation so back to TS & G D.'
So now to answer as best possible some of the questions which have popped up in the thread. Some of these are my interpretations and summary of a fairly complicated and detailed conversation.
A road with a ghost island surrounded by solid white lines is definitely classed as a single NOT a dual.
It is considered that that the central reserve needs to be
a "construction" or separate land as opposed to white paint on a continuous stretch of tarmac.
What this means is that a central reserve consisting simply of grass is quite OK but its better if the edge of the carriageway (the bit you drive on) is defined by kerbs or some sort of edging strip.
It seems that the central reserve needs to be clearly physically different from the carriageway surface, and if not then kerbs / edging strip should be in place. For example a tarmac/flagged island would need to have kerbs in place. A simple grass reserves might not is how I read the situation. My interpretation.
FiF Note on this last point re a wholly central grass reserve. Just in case any jokers get ideas this does exclude those nice bits of unclassified rural 3 ply with a grass strip growing up through the middle of the tarmac!! ;-)
Limit signs, eg as in dual ahead, dual begins, dual ends and so on are not actually legally necessary but considering the nature of the discussion generally thought to be a good thing.
Now where a traffic island becomes a central reserve and vice versa is a bit of a moot point.
A traffic island is considered to be a "short" construction but no real definition of short except in DMRB which as we know is not mandatory in all respects. So no real answer to Cliff's question regarding more or less continuous barriers and breaks in the barriers for junctions etc. Seems common sense will have to prevail here.
Finally! All the duals appearing with 70 signs and singles with 60 signs as opposed to NSL are probably illegal as it was considered that the correct sign would be an NSL sign.
There was a caveat to this comment that the detail of TS&GDR needed to be checked and "it's not the lightest or simplest of
documents to wade through". Can say that again buster!
It was suggested that this might be due to some areas having difficulty with people knowing what the correct limit really is, and trying to make it clear to drivers.
However whilst that might be well intentioned these signs could be contrary to the regulations and thus technically illegal.
Had a nice conversation with a very helpful and knowledgeable chap from Road Policy Unit DfT, somehow connected with office of the Deputy PM, old street pugilist 2 Jags himself. Suspect it would be difficult to go much higher with this one.
It appears that we have already discovered and discussed the existing legislation in place covering dual carriageways in this thread.
For those unwilling to scroll back up to the top the salient points are as follows.
Traffic Signs and General Directions Regulations 2002
(available here >> www.tinyurl.com/pk0j )
say the following
Interpretation - general
4. In these Regulations unless the context otherwise requires -
"dual carriageway road" means a road which comprises a central reservation and "all-purpose dual carriageway road" means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway;
and
"central reservation" means -
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
Plus the part of the RTRA 1984 which deal with speed limits says
"2)Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
Schedule 6 Part 1V
'dual carriageway road' - means a road part of which consists of a central reservation to seperate a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in one direction from a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in the opposite direction"
The Act doesn't define central reservation so back to TS & G D.'
So now to answer as best possible some of the questions which have popped up in the thread. Some of these are my interpretations and summary of a fairly complicated and detailed conversation.
A road with a ghost island surrounded by solid white lines is definitely classed as a single NOT a dual.
It is considered that that the central reserve needs to be
a "construction" or separate land as opposed to white paint on a continuous stretch of tarmac.
What this means is that a central reserve consisting simply of grass is quite OK but its better if the edge of the carriageway (the bit you drive on) is defined by kerbs or some sort of edging strip.
It seems that the central reserve needs to be clearly physically different from the carriageway surface, and if not then kerbs / edging strip should be in place. For example a tarmac/flagged island would need to have kerbs in place. A simple grass reserves might not is how I read the situation. My interpretation.
FiF Note on this last point re a wholly central grass reserve. Just in case any jokers get ideas this does exclude those nice bits of unclassified rural 3 ply with a grass strip growing up through the middle of the tarmac!! ;-)
Limit signs, eg as in dual ahead, dual begins, dual ends and so on are not actually legally necessary but considering the nature of the discussion generally thought to be a good thing.
Now where a traffic island becomes a central reserve and vice versa is a bit of a moot point.
A traffic island is considered to be a "short" construction but no real definition of short except in DMRB which as we know is not mandatory in all respects. So no real answer to Cliff's question regarding more or less continuous barriers and breaks in the barriers for junctions etc. Seems common sense will have to prevail here.
Finally! All the duals appearing with 70 signs and singles with 60 signs as opposed to NSL are probably illegal as it was considered that the correct sign would be an NSL sign.
There was a caveat to this comment that the detail of TS&GDR needed to be checked and "it's not the lightest or simplest of
documents to wade through". Can say that again buster!
It was suggested that this might be due to some areas having difficulty with people knowing what the correct limit really is, and trying to make it clear to drivers.
However whilst that might be well intentioned these signs could be contrary to the regulations and thus technically illegal.
Another stretch of dual carriageway on which, in my contrary youth, I used to try to get caught "speeding" on just so I could argue the point.
A849
https://maps.app.goo.gl/CSTd93xDPSA4p42H9
A849
https://maps.app.goo.gl/CSTd93xDPSA4p42H9
Desiderata said:
Another stretch of dual carriageway on which, in my contrary youth, I used to try to get caught "speeding" on just so I could argue the point.
A849
https://maps.app.goo.gl/CSTd93xDPSA4p42H9
A849
https://maps.app.goo.gl/CSTd93xDPSA4p42H9
Deffo a dual carriageway though.
Following the speed limit review some authorities added 50mph limits to both types which avoided the problem, even if 50mph wasnt compliant with the review
In theory the police guidelines prevent a non compliant limit being enforced... but
On the subject of BS answers (mentioned above), when they introduced bus lanes to Aberdeen I was curious about the sign at junctions indicating straight on was for bus’s only. During times of operation, you can move over where the bus lane ends to turn left, so it made sense.
I was thinking if the bus lane is not a bus lane, (out of hours), I can legally use the bus lane, but at a junction, it would seem daft to have change lanes, cross over the junction and be able to move back over to the left to the bus lane.
So not wishing to be caught I wrote to the local constabulary and asked them if the sign saying Bus’s only was only applicable to the times when the bus lane was in operation, and did not apply out with them.
The response was a clear, yes they do. So I wrote the council, who confirmed my thoughts that it clearly did not apply, the letter sits in my glove box in my car just in case some egit stops me from going straight over.
On the plus side, I usually have the entire bus lane to myself, no one seems to know that the bus lane has a big sign up showing the times of operation, and may it continue.
I was thinking if the bus lane is not a bus lane, (out of hours), I can legally use the bus lane, but at a junction, it would seem daft to have change lanes, cross over the junction and be able to move back over to the left to the bus lane.
So not wishing to be caught I wrote to the local constabulary and asked them if the sign saying Bus’s only was only applicable to the times when the bus lane was in operation, and did not apply out with them.
The response was a clear, yes they do. So I wrote the council, who confirmed my thoughts that it clearly did not apply, the letter sits in my glove box in my car just in case some egit stops me from going straight over.
On the plus side, I usually have the entire bus lane to myself, no one seems to know that the bus lane has a big sign up showing the times of operation, and may it continue.
Clearly a dual carriageway.
Earlier this year, on my travels (in Norfolk?), I was using a major, single-carriageway road where, over quite a distance, there were several of these fairly long dualling arrangements at junctions. At every location, 60 mph signage was placed at the start, with NSL signs at the end.
As one would expect if the intention was to maintain a 60 mph limit on the dual-carriageway element!
Earlier this year, on my travels (in Norfolk?), I was using a major, single-carriageway road where, over quite a distance, there were several of these fairly long dualling arrangements at junctions. At every location, 60 mph signage was placed at the start, with NSL signs at the end.
As one would expect if the intention was to maintain a 60 mph limit on the dual-carriageway element!
Sabre thinks it's a 70mph camera on the A1 Berwick B6461 for Paxton
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php...
There's a section of dual carriageway on the A1near Berwick upon Tweed I think is quite insignificant, the stange thing about it is that it has a 70mph speed camera on it. I used to look at a road map (with speed cameras) with confusion as it looked as if a 70mph speed camera was on a single carriageway, I thought it was a typo until I drove up there myself and realised there was a small dual section.ETA on the safe speed for life site it also says 70mph
101 101 A1 Berwick B6461 Paxton Northumberland Fixed Spot Speed Camera Site 397360 652990 55.77024 -2.04366 1.028 70
http://www.safespeedforlife.co.uk/wp-content/uploa...
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php...
Sabre post Mon Oct 29 2018 said:
There's a section of dual carriageway on the A1near Berwick upon Tweed I think is quite insignificant, the stange thing about it is that it has a 70mph speed camera on it. I used to look at a road map (with speed cameras) with confusion as it looked as if a 70mph speed camera was on a single carriageway, I thought it was a typo until I drove up there myself and realised there was a small dual section.
101 101 A1 Berwick B6461 Paxton Northumberland Fixed Spot Speed Camera Site 397360 652990 55.77024 -2.04366 1.028 70
http://www.safespeedforlife.co.uk/wp-content/uploa...
Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 5th November 15:51
saaby93 said:
-
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?...
Funnily the legislation there is straight up wrong.https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?...
FIF on Honest John said:
Right I think this as far as we are going to get with this one.
Had a nice conversation with a very helpful and knowledgeable chap from Road Policy Unit DfT, somehow connected with office of the Deputy PM, old street pugilist 2 Jags himself. Suspect it would be difficult to go much higher with this one.
It appears that we have already discovered and discussed the existing legislation in place covering dual carriageways in this thread.
For those unwilling to scroll back up to the top the salient points are as follows.
Traffic Signs and General Directions Regulations 2002
(available here >> www.tinyurl.com/pk0j )
say the following
Interpretation - general
4. In these Regulations unless the context otherwise requires -
"dual carriageway road" means a road which comprises a central reservation and "all-purpose dual carriageway road" means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway;
and
"central reservation" means -
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
Plus the part of the RTRA 1984 which deal with speed limits says
"2)Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
Schedule 6 Part 1V
'dual carriageway road' - means a road part of which consists of a central reservation to seperate a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in one direction from a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in the opposite direction"
The Act doesn't define central reservation so back to TS & G D.'
So now to answer as best possible some of the questions which have popped up in the thread. Some of these are my interpretations and summary of a fairly complicated and detailed conversation.
A road with a ghost island surrounded by solid white lines is definitely classed as a single NOT a dual.
It is considered that that the central reserve needs to be
a "construction" or separate land as opposed to white paint on a continuous stretch of tarmac.
What this means is that a central reserve consisting simply of grass is quite OK but its better if the edge of the carriageway (the bit you drive on) is defined by kerbs or some sort of edging strip.
It seems that the central reserve needs to be clearly physically different from the carriageway surface, and if not then kerbs / edging strip should be in place. For example a tarmac/flagged island would need to have kerbs in place. A simple grass reserves might not is how I read the situation. My interpretation.
FiF Note on this last point re a wholly central grass reserve. Just in case any jokers get ideas this does exclude those nice bits of unclassified rural 3 ply with a grass strip growing up through the middle of the tarmac!! ;-)
Limit signs, eg as in dual ahead, dual begins, dual ends and so on are not actually legally necessary but considering the nature of the discussion generally thought to be a good thing.
Now where a traffic island becomes a central reserve and vice versa is a bit of a moot point.
A traffic island is considered to be a "short" construction but no real definition of short except in DMRB which as we know is not mandatory in all respects. So no real answer to Cliff's question regarding more or less continuous barriers and breaks in the barriers for junctions etc. Seems common sense will have to prevail here.
Finally! All the duals appearing with 70 signs and singles with 60 signs as opposed to NSL are probably illegal as it was considered that the correct sign would be an NSL sign.
There was a caveat to this comment that the detail of TS&GDR needed to be checked and "it's not the lightest or simplest of
documents to wade through". Can say that again buster!
It was suggested that this might be due to some areas having difficulty with people knowing what the correct limit really is, and trying to make it clear to drivers.
However whilst that might be well intentioned these signs could be contrary to the regulations and thus technically illegal.
Had a nice conversation with a very helpful and knowledgeable chap from Road Policy Unit DfT, somehow connected with office of the Deputy PM, old street pugilist 2 Jags himself. Suspect it would be difficult to go much higher with this one.
It appears that we have already discovered and discussed the existing legislation in place covering dual carriageways in this thread.
For those unwilling to scroll back up to the top the salient points are as follows.
Traffic Signs and General Directions Regulations 2002
(available here >> www.tinyurl.com/pk0j )
say the following
Interpretation - general
4. In these Regulations unless the context otherwise requires -
"dual carriageway road" means a road which comprises a central reservation and "all-purpose dual carriageway road" means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway;
and
"central reservation" means -
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
Plus the part of the RTRA 1984 which deal with speed limits says
"2)Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
Schedule 6 Part 1V
'dual carriageway road' - means a road part of which consists of a central reservation to seperate a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in one direction from a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in the opposite direction"
The Act doesn't define central reservation so back to TS & G D.'
So now to answer as best possible some of the questions which have popped up in the thread. Some of these are my interpretations and summary of a fairly complicated and detailed conversation.
A road with a ghost island surrounded by solid white lines is definitely classed as a single NOT a dual.
It is considered that that the central reserve needs to be
a "construction" or separate land as opposed to white paint on a continuous stretch of tarmac.
What this means is that a central reserve consisting simply of grass is quite OK but its better if the edge of the carriageway (the bit you drive on) is defined by kerbs or some sort of edging strip.
It seems that the central reserve needs to be clearly physically different from the carriageway surface, and if not then kerbs / edging strip should be in place. For example a tarmac/flagged island would need to have kerbs in place. A simple grass reserves might not is how I read the situation. My interpretation.
FiF Note on this last point re a wholly central grass reserve. Just in case any jokers get ideas this does exclude those nice bits of unclassified rural 3 ply with a grass strip growing up through the middle of the tarmac!! ;-)
Limit signs, eg as in dual ahead, dual begins, dual ends and so on are not actually legally necessary but considering the nature of the discussion generally thought to be a good thing.
Now where a traffic island becomes a central reserve and vice versa is a bit of a moot point.
A traffic island is considered to be a "short" construction but no real definition of short except in DMRB which as we know is not mandatory in all respects. So no real answer to Cliff's question regarding more or less continuous barriers and breaks in the barriers for junctions etc. Seems common sense will have to prevail here.
Finally! All the duals appearing with 70 signs and singles with 60 signs as opposed to NSL are probably illegal as it was considered that the correct sign would be an NSL sign.
There was a caveat to this comment that the detail of TS&GDR needed to be checked and "it's not the lightest or simplest of
documents to wade through". Can say that again buster!
It was suggested that this might be due to some areas having difficulty with people knowing what the correct limit really is, and trying to make it clear to drivers.
However whilst that might be well intentioned these signs could be contrary to the regulations and thus technically illegal.
The A55 is an example of a Special Road, that is, a road that isn't all purpose. But it's also not a motorway (despite motorway-like restrictions)!.
Even the latest 2016 edition makes the same mistake.
Solocle said:
Funnily the legislation there is straight up wrong.
The A55 is an example of a Special Road, that is, a road that isn't all purpose. But it's also not a motorway (despite motorway-like restrictions)!.
Even the latest 2016 edition makes the same mistake.
which bit is wrong?The A55 is an example of a Special Road, that is, a road that isn't all purpose. But it's also not a motorway (despite motorway-like restrictions)!.
Even the latest 2016 edition makes the same mistake.
It's understood that there special roads
saaby93 said:
which bit is wrong?
It's understood that there special roads
The A90 AWPR (By pass around Aberdeen), is also a special road, bit like a motorway, NSL slip roads, except when you join it from a big roundabout, emergency lay-by’s, and apart from the usual prohibitions, less than 50cc, no pedestrians, and which upset a lot of farmers, no tractors are allowed on it, which is odd as the A92 which is also dual carriageways allows them.It's understood that there special roads
On the subject of the AWPR what really annoys me, as you join the bypass, there is a sign, last time I used it it said, “In the past 4 weeks we have collected 181 bags of rubbish from the carriageway”.
Can’t say I have ever ever chucked anything out any vehicle.
Vipers said:
saaby93 said:
which bit is wrong?
It's understood that there special roads
The A90 AWPR (By pass around Aberdeen), is also a special road, bit like a motorway, NSL slip roads, except when you join it from a big roundabout, emergency lay-by’s, and apart from the usual prohibitions, less than 50cc, no pedestrians, and which upset a lot of farmers, no tractors are allowed on it, which is odd as the A92 which is also dual carriageways allows them.It's understood that there special roads
On the subject of the AWPR what really annoys me, as you join the bypass, there is a sign, last time I used it it said, “In the past 4 weeks we have collected 181 bags of rubbish from the carriageway”.
Can’t say I have ever ever chucked anything out any vehicle.
The implementation is two adjacent special roads, the M48, a special road allowing Class I and II traffic, and a cycle/maintenance track that allows basically all traffic except I/II - most notably mopeds.
My issue is with this sentence:
TSRGD said:
"dual carriageway road" means a road which comprises a central reservation and "all-purpose dual carriageway road" means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway;
But a non-motorway special road is not all purpose.Edited by Solocle on Thursday 24th November 10:07
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