A1 HGV crash – What could have been done differently?
Discussion
Earlier I posted some comments on the following thread about the three deaths in Durham caused by a HGV driver being distracted by his phone.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I made the point that it was also a tragedy that the victims did not use mitigation measures to help prevent themselves being caught up in the collision, and that they might otherwise still be alive.
Predictably, my comments have attracted some replies asking what could have been done differently, hence posting here to gather the views of those interested in advanced driving.
The mitigation measures that I have in mind are simple, and should be common sense to all drivers, but sadly I do not see many drivers doing this along my travels, and the responses in the above thread worryingly demonstrate that people are not even aware how to avoid becoming a similar victim. I don’t even remember if this is taught at all at advanced level by IAM or ROSPA.
In any case, what I have in mind is as follows:
In the dash cam video of the A1 crash, neither of the 2 cars where the fatalities occurred, appear to take any reactive action in the seconds prior to impact, and I wonder whether the drivers were even aware of the deadly HGV bearing down upon them.
If I was in their situation, I’d like to think that I would be on the accelerator, using up my safety gap, and aiming for the hard shoulder or even going up the grass verge to avoid the HGV colliding into me.
I’d be interested to hear what others think about this?
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I made the point that it was also a tragedy that the victims did not use mitigation measures to help prevent themselves being caught up in the collision, and that they might otherwise still be alive.
Predictably, my comments have attracted some replies asking what could have been done differently, hence posting here to gather the views of those interested in advanced driving.
The mitigation measures that I have in mind are simple, and should be common sense to all drivers, but sadly I do not see many drivers doing this along my travels, and the responses in the above thread worryingly demonstrate that people are not even aware how to avoid becoming a similar victim. I don’t even remember if this is taught at all at advanced level by IAM or ROSPA.
In any case, what I have in mind is as follows:
- When approaching the rear of a queue stationary traffic on a high speed road, I leave a large safety gap in front of me, say approx. 50m or 10 car lengths, or more.
- I keep my foot on the brake pedal to ensure my brake lights remain illuminated. It is also common on the continent to use hazzard lights in such circumstances.
- I keep a vigilant watch in my mirrors to see what the approaching traffic is doing behind me, specifically to spot any wayward vehicles that might have missed the stopped traffic.
- Once a safe buffer zone of stopped vehicles builds up behind me, I will advance forwards into my safety gap, closing off the distance to the vehicle in front, but still keeping watch on events behind me.
- In the event of a vehicle piling into the stationary traffic behind me, the safety gap that I have created should provide me with space & time in which to take avoiding action and to hopefully get out of the way.
In the dash cam video of the A1 crash, neither of the 2 cars where the fatalities occurred, appear to take any reactive action in the seconds prior to impact, and I wonder whether the drivers were even aware of the deadly HGV bearing down upon them.
If I was in their situation, I’d like to think that I would be on the accelerator, using up my safety gap, and aiming for the hard shoulder or even going up the grass verge to avoid the HGV colliding into me.
I’d be interested to hear what others think about this?
Mandat said:
Earlier I posted some comments on the following thread about the three deaths in Durham caused by a HGV driver being distracted by his phone.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I made the point that it was also a tragedy that the victims did not use mitigation measures to help prevent themselves being caught up in the collision, and that they might otherwise still be alive.
Predictably, my comments have attracted some replies asking what could have been done differently, hence posting here to gather the views of those interested in advanced driving.
The mitigation measures that I have in mind are simple, and should be common sense to all drivers, but sadly I do not see many drivers doing this along my travels, and the responses in the above thread worryingly demonstrate that people are not even aware how to avoid becoming a similar victim. I don’t even remember if this is taught at all at advanced level by IAM or ROSPA.
In any case, what I have in mind is as follows:
In the dash cam video of the A1 crash, neither of the 2 cars where the fatalities occurred, appear to take any reactive action in the seconds prior to impact, and I wonder whether the drivers were even aware of the deadly HGV bearing down upon them.
If I was in their situation, I’d like to think that I would be on the accelerator, using up my safety gap, and aiming for the hard shoulder or even going up the grass verge to avoid the HGV colliding into me.
I’d be interested to hear what others think about this?
So what happens to all the others in queue?https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I made the point that it was also a tragedy that the victims did not use mitigation measures to help prevent themselves being caught up in the collision, and that they might otherwise still be alive.
Predictably, my comments have attracted some replies asking what could have been done differently, hence posting here to gather the views of those interested in advanced driving.
The mitigation measures that I have in mind are simple, and should be common sense to all drivers, but sadly I do not see many drivers doing this along my travels, and the responses in the above thread worryingly demonstrate that people are not even aware how to avoid becoming a similar victim. I don’t even remember if this is taught at all at advanced level by IAM or ROSPA.
In any case, what I have in mind is as follows:
- When approaching the rear of a queue stationary traffic on a high speed road, I leave a large safety gap in front of me, say approx. 50m or 10 car lengths, or more.
- I keep my foot on the brake pedal to ensure my brake lights remain illuminated. It is also common on the continent to use hazzard lights in such circumstances.
- I keep a vigilant watch in my mirrors to see what the approaching traffic is doing behind me, specifically to spot any wayward vehicles that might have missed the stopped traffic.
- Once a safe buffer zone of stopped vehicles builds up behind me, I will advance forwards into my safety gap, closing off the distance to the vehicle in front, but still keeping watch on events behind me.
- In the event of a vehicle piling into the stationary traffic behind me, the safety gap that I have created should provide me with space & time in which to take avoiding action and to hopefully get out of the way.
In the dash cam video of the A1 crash, neither of the 2 cars where the fatalities occurred, appear to take any reactive action in the seconds prior to impact, and I wonder whether the drivers were even aware of the deadly HGV bearing down upon them.
If I was in their situation, I’d like to think that I would be on the accelerator, using up my safety gap, and aiming for the hard shoulder or even going up the grass verge to avoid the HGV colliding into me.
I’d be interested to hear what others think about this?
Shaw Tarse said:
Mandat said:
Earlier I posted some comments on the following thread about the three deaths in Durham caused by a HGV driver being distracted by his phone.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I made the point that it was also a tragedy that the victims did not use mitigation measures to help prevent themselves being caught up in the collision, and that they might otherwise still be alive.
Predictably, my comments have attracted some replies asking what could have been done differently, hence posting here to gather the views of those interested in advanced driving.
The mitigation measures that I have in mind are simple, and should be common sense to all drivers, but sadly I do not see many drivers doing this along my travels, and the responses in the above thread worryingly demonstrate that people are not even aware how to avoid becoming a similar victim. I don’t even remember if this is taught at all at advanced level by IAM or ROSPA.
In any case, what I have in mind is as follows:
In the dash cam video of the A1 crash, neither of the 2 cars where the fatalities occurred, appear to take any reactive action in the seconds prior to impact, and I wonder whether the drivers were even aware of the deadly HGV bearing down upon them.
If I was in their situation, I’d like to think that I would be on the accelerator, using up my safety gap, and aiming for the hard shoulder or even going up the grass verge to avoid the HGV colliding into me.
I’d be interested to hear what others think about this?
So what happens to all the others in queue?https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I made the point that it was also a tragedy that the victims did not use mitigation measures to help prevent themselves being caught up in the collision, and that they might otherwise still be alive.
Predictably, my comments have attracted some replies asking what could have been done differently, hence posting here to gather the views of those interested in advanced driving.
The mitigation measures that I have in mind are simple, and should be common sense to all drivers, but sadly I do not see many drivers doing this along my travels, and the responses in the above thread worryingly demonstrate that people are not even aware how to avoid becoming a similar victim. I don’t even remember if this is taught at all at advanced level by IAM or ROSPA.
In any case, what I have in mind is as follows:
- When approaching the rear of a queue stationary traffic on a high speed road, I leave a large safety gap in front of me, say approx. 50m or 10 car lengths, or more.
- I keep my foot on the brake pedal to ensure my brake lights remain illuminated. It is also common on the continent to use hazzard lights in such circumstances.
- I keep a vigilant watch in my mirrors to see what the approaching traffic is doing behind me, specifically to spot any wayward vehicles that might have missed the stopped traffic.
- Once a safe buffer zone of stopped vehicles builds up behind me, I will advance forwards into my safety gap, closing off the distance to the vehicle in front, but still keeping watch on events behind me.
- In the event of a vehicle piling into the stationary traffic behind me, the safety gap that I have created should provide me with space & time in which to take avoiding action and to hopefully get out of the way.
In the dash cam video of the A1 crash, neither of the 2 cars where the fatalities occurred, appear to take any reactive action in the seconds prior to impact, and I wonder whether the drivers were even aware of the deadly HGV bearing down upon them.
If I was in their situation, I’d like to think that I would be on the accelerator, using up my safety gap, and aiming for the hard shoulder or even going up the grass verge to avoid the HGV colliding into me.
I’d be interested to hear what others think about this?
If you're that worried, I suggest first gear engaged and having somewhere to go that isn't likely to be occupied by a LGV in the near future. And that's anywhere, not necessarily somewhere with tarmac on it. Cars can be replaced/repaired, the meatsacks inside to a lesser extent.
Many moons ago I dealt with a massive motorway pileup on the M42 - that had a LGV pile into the back of the stationary queue at 56 mph. But in all 100+ vehicles there were pockets of people who had been able to stop in time and leave enough space around them that the dogpile behind didn't reach them. I recall the coroner was very definite that my evidence put that particular point in front of the jury at inquest.
Many moons ago I dealt with a massive motorway pileup on the M42 - that had a LGV pile into the back of the stationary queue at 56 mph. But in all 100+ vehicles there were pockets of people who had been able to stop in time and leave enough space around them that the dogpile behind didn't reach them. I recall the coroner was very definite that my evidence put that particular point in front of the jury at inquest.
What the OP says is good practice and I try the same myself even when I’m in a hgv and relatively safe from a rear impact. But in reality things happen so quickly, the traffic in front suddenly slows, your caught out a bit yourself, get on the brakes to a stop, then a second later, whack, your smeared across the tarmac by the hgv.
StressedDave said:
If you're that worried, I suggest first gear engaged and having somewhere to go that isn't likely to be occupied by a LGV in the near future. And that's anywhere, not necessarily somewhere with tarmac on it. Cars can be replaced/repaired, the meatsacks inside to a lesser extent.
Many moons ago I dealt with a massive motorway pileup on the M42 - that had a LGV pile into the back of the stationary queue at 56 mph. But in all 100+ vehicles there were pockets of people who had been able to stop in time and leave enough space around them that the dogpile behind didn't reach them. I recall the coroner was very definite that my evidence put that particular point in front of the jury at inquest.
And your point is? Have you looked at the video? Those killed and seriously injured were at the back of the que and not in some "pocket" 50 yards away. Many moons ago I dealt with a massive motorway pileup on the M42 - that had a LGV pile into the back of the stationary queue at 56 mph. But in all 100+ vehicles there were pockets of people who had been able to stop in time and leave enough space around them that the dogpile behind didn't reach them. I recall the coroner was very definite that my evidence put that particular point in front of the jury at inquest.
Mandat said:
Earlier I posted some comments on the following thread about the three deaths in Durham caused by a HGV driver being distracted by his phone.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I made the point that it was also a tragedy that the victims did not use mitigation measures to help prevent themselves being caught up in the collision, and that they might otherwise still be alive.
Predictably, my comments have attracted some replies asking what could have been done differently, hence posting here to gather the views of those interested in advanced driving.
The mitigation measures that I have in mind are simple, and should be common sense to all drivers, but sadly I do not see many drivers doing this along my travels, and the responses in the above thread worryingly demonstrate that people are not even aware how to avoid becoming a similar victim. I don’t even remember if this is taught at all at advanced level by IAM or ROSPA.
In any case, what I have in mind is as follows:
In the dash cam video of the A1 crash, neither of the 2 cars where the fatalities occurred, appear to take any reactive action in the seconds prior to impact, and I wonder whether the drivers were even aware of the deadly HGV bearing down upon them.
If I was in their situation, I’d like to think that I would be on the accelerator, using up my safety gap, and aiming for the hard shoulder or even going up the grass verge to avoid the HGV colliding into me.
I’d be interested to hear what others think about this?
You believe what you want to believe, clearly you are not just an advanced motorist but a driving god. or maybe you are just deluded if you think you could have avoided that accident.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I made the point that it was also a tragedy that the victims did not use mitigation measures to help prevent themselves being caught up in the collision, and that they might otherwise still be alive.
Predictably, my comments have attracted some replies asking what could have been done differently, hence posting here to gather the views of those interested in advanced driving.
The mitigation measures that I have in mind are simple, and should be common sense to all drivers, but sadly I do not see many drivers doing this along my travels, and the responses in the above thread worryingly demonstrate that people are not even aware how to avoid becoming a similar victim. I don’t even remember if this is taught at all at advanced level by IAM or ROSPA.
In any case, what I have in mind is as follows:
- When approaching the rear of a queue stationary traffic on a high speed road, I leave a large safety gap in front of me, say approx. 50m or 10 car lengths, or more.
- I keep my foot on the brake pedal to ensure my brake lights remain illuminated. It is also common on the continent to use hazzard lights in such circumstances.
- I keep a vigilant watch in my mirrors to see what the approaching traffic is doing behind me, specifically to spot any wayward vehicles that might have missed the stopped traffic.
- Once a safe buffer zone of stopped vehicles builds up behind me, I will advance forwards into my safety gap, closing off the distance to the vehicle in front, but still keeping watch on events behind me.
- In the event of a vehicle piling into the stationary traffic behind me, the safety gap that I have created should provide me with space & time in which to take avoiding action and to hopefully get out of the way.
In the dash cam video of the A1 crash, neither of the 2 cars where the fatalities occurred, appear to take any reactive action in the seconds prior to impact, and I wonder whether the drivers were even aware of the deadly HGV bearing down upon them.
If I was in their situation, I’d like to think that I would be on the accelerator, using up my safety gap, and aiming for the hard shoulder or even going up the grass verge to avoid the HGV colliding into me.
I’d be interested to hear what others think about this?
rampageturke said:
I think most of what you said is irrelevant when you have a t
t in an artic looking at a dating website at 56-60mph
The measures I have set out are specifically intended to deal with a situation like this.t in an artic looking at a dating website at 56-60mphI'm intrigued why you think the measures are irrelevant
rampageturke said:
you can't predict the unpredictable
Crashes like this have happened in the past, and will continue to happen in the future.On the basis that such crashes will occur, it is reasonable to be prepared to take evasive action if it happens to you.
rampageturke said:
this is all happening in a second or less
At 56mph the HGV is covering 25m per second. If you can see the HGV 300m behind you, there are 12s before impact. Even at 100m behind you, you would still have 4s to put your escape plan into action. I'll agree with the point the OP is making. There are some issues to be honest - 50 metres, initially, sounds like a heck of a lot and that in itself could cause some issues. There is no doubt however that trying to ensure your own 'safety bubble' is of paramount importance. There is a similar idea that if you are parked (either on a street or in a traffic jam) your front wheels should be angled to the side so if you do get hit you're pushed towards empty space
Mandat said:
At 56mph the HGV is covering 25m per second. If you can see the HGV 300m behind you, there are 12s before impact. Even at 100m behind you, you would still have 4s to put your escape plan into action.
What's the braking distance for an HGV at 56 mph? I would assume it's a lot less than 300m so assuming one that far away is going to hit you is going to result you darting up the grass verge every time you meet a queue. When I was a lad my dad made me have advanced driving lessons, one of the things I was taught (which is yet another thing I don’t do 30 years on) was to always have an escape route. So in traffic you’d keep a suitable distance from the car in front, if you saw trouble looming in your mirror you could either go left or right to avoid it.
Or it might have been during my military training? I can’t remember, was a while ago?
I dont do it now as I, like most people, don’t expect it’s required, like those poor buggers who were killed.
Or it might have been during my military training? I can’t remember, was a while ago?
I dont do it now as I, like most people, don’t expect it’s required, like those poor buggers who were killed.
Drumroll said:
You believe what you want to believe, clearly you are not just an advanced motorist but a driving god. or maybe you are just deluded if you think you could have avoided that accident.
There's no need for facetious comments.As I said in the OP, I consider the mitigation measures described as being common sense, but it seems to be an alien concept to some people, which is what prompted the question.
In the circumstances of this incident, I would like to think that I would have at least seen the HGV coming, even if not fully being able to avoid a collision.
RizzoTheRat said:
What's the braking distance for an HGV at 56 mph? I would assume it's a lot less than 300m so assuming one that far away is going to hit you is going to result you darting up the grass verge every time you meet a queue.
Google says that the average stopping distance for a loaded HGV travelling at 60 mph is 60 metres.If I were stopped at the back of a queue of traffic, I would be keeping an eye on the approaching traffic from the rear, to ensure that they are also slowing down to a stop.
It ought to be fairly obvious if a HGV was bearing down on you at 56mph without slowing, which should give you a warning that a crash is going to occur.
Even at 100m away, at full speed of the HGV, you will still have at least 4 seconds in which to put your escape plan into action.
Mandat said:
Google says that the average stopping distance for a loaded HGV travelling at 60 mph is 60 metres.
If I were stopped at the back of a queue of traffic, I would be keeping an eye on the approaching traffic from the rear, to ensure that they are also slowing down to a stop.
It ought to be fairly obvious if a HGV was bearing down on you at 56mph without slowing, which should give you a warning that a crash is going to occur.
Even at 100m away, at full speed of the HGV, you will still have at least 4 seconds in which to put your escape plan into action.
Do you only queue on the inside lane of a motorway? Those four seconds aren't going to help if you have traffic left and right. Even if in the left lane, it also assumes there is still a hard shoulder (ie not all-lane running) for your escape. What about dual carriageways with no shoulder and relatively tight crash barriers?If I were stopped at the back of a queue of traffic, I would be keeping an eye on the approaching traffic from the rear, to ensure that they are also slowing down to a stop.
It ought to be fairly obvious if a HGV was bearing down on you at 56mph without slowing, which should give you a warning that a crash is going to occur.
Even at 100m away, at full speed of the HGV, you will still have at least 4 seconds in which to put your escape plan into action.
Mandat said:
Drumroll said:
You believe what you want to believe, clearly you are not just an advanced motorist but a driving god. or maybe you are just deluded if you think you could have avoided that accident.
There's no need for facetious comments.As I said in the OP, I consider the mitigation measures described as being common sense, but it seems to be an alien concept to some people, which is what prompted the question.
In the circumstances of this incident, I would like to think that I would have at least seen the HGV coming, even if not fully being able to avoid a collision.
Very little you could do in reality I expect.
I leave 2 or 3 car lengths to the car in front. Enough to give me a get out route should I need it.
I use hazards when approaching the tail end of stationary traffic and am very aware of how vulnerable you are at that point. More so in the dark or adverse conditions.
I'd like to think I'd see the HGV coming but whether you could do anything about it is debatable. You'd have what? 3 or 4 seconds at best to react.
I leave 2 or 3 car lengths to the car in front. Enough to give me a get out route should I need it.
I use hazards when approaching the tail end of stationary traffic and am very aware of how vulnerable you are at that point. More so in the dark or adverse conditions.
I'd like to think I'd see the HGV coming but whether you could do anything about it is debatable. You'd have what? 3 or 4 seconds at best to react.
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