Advanced Motorcycling Instructors different opinions
Discussion
I've been a member of TVAM for a few years now and always seem to lose interest after a few lessons so it ends up being a year sometimes between them. I've recently decided to push myself to brush up on things and take the test or pack it all in as i'm not enjoying the group but kind of feel i need to pass.
Few weeks ago on an observed ride I moved out to overtake and opened it up. The instructor warned to not do this on the test in case you're failed for it.
On Sunday I do this on the exact same road, following a car doing the exact same speed in the exact same position. This is on a dead straight road with fields either side, no junctions and about two thirds of a mile long. I do a momentum overtake at 60mph whilst the car was doing about 50mph. Now this guy moans at me and tells me i'd fail because I didn't do it quick enough and a car doing 50 in a 60 then it shouldn't be overtaken.
Who is right here? I know I'd have taken the first option whenever I'm not being observed.
Must admit this isn't the first time I've been given conflicting info. This guy also was adamant you should be moving from position 1 to 5 in a 30mph whereas the other instructors seem to want you to stay in 3 unless there is an issue. Who is right here?
Few weeks ago on an observed ride I moved out to overtake and opened it up. The instructor warned to not do this on the test in case you're failed for it.
On Sunday I do this on the exact same road, following a car doing the exact same speed in the exact same position. This is on a dead straight road with fields either side, no junctions and about two thirds of a mile long. I do a momentum overtake at 60mph whilst the car was doing about 50mph. Now this guy moans at me and tells me i'd fail because I didn't do it quick enough and a car doing 50 in a 60 then it shouldn't be overtaken.
Who is right here? I know I'd have taken the first option whenever I'm not being observed.
Must admit this isn't the first time I've been given conflicting info. This guy also was adamant you should be moving from position 1 to 5 in a 30mph whereas the other instructors seem to want you to stay in 3 unless there is an issue. Who is right here?
Don't expect all observers or examiners to agree with one another - they are individuals with subjective views, and from different backgrounds (different police driving schools have different ideas, and now you also have civilian examiners without any emergency services background).
Some observers and some examiners think it is acceptable to exceed the speed limit briefly during an overtake. Personally, I don't think you can ever be marked down for keeping to the speed limit, and that means not planning any overtake unless you can reasonably expect to complete it safely within the speed limit. To safely overtake a 50 mph vehicle within a 60 mph limit you have to have a long view without hazards - but it is possible.
Everyone agrees that if after you have started an overtake for any reason safety becomes compromised you should exceed the speed limit if that improves safety.
Most examiners would like to hear you explain how you decided whether or not to look for an overtake, even if you are not giving a commentary (spoken thoughts) at the time. But I am speaking as a car observer! Commentary not so relevant on a bike, but you can explain next time you stop.
Some observers and some examiners think it is acceptable to exceed the speed limit briefly during an overtake. Personally, I don't think you can ever be marked down for keeping to the speed limit, and that means not planning any overtake unless you can reasonably expect to complete it safely within the speed limit. To safely overtake a 50 mph vehicle within a 60 mph limit you have to have a long view without hazards - but it is possible.
Everyone agrees that if after you have started an overtake for any reason safety becomes compromised you should exceed the speed limit if that improves safety.
Most examiners would like to hear you explain how you decided whether or not to look for an overtake, even if you are not giving a commentary (spoken thoughts) at the time. But I am speaking as a car observer! Commentary not so relevant on a bike, but you can explain next time you stop.
Slight differences of opinion will always happen, as stated above, much of this is based on personal or organisational interpretation of the perceived standard. The standard also depends on what you are doing, I guess most are based on Roadcraft, but again that depends on how it is applied and whether that is as a blue light response or a non blue light use of the standard.
I’ve always been advised (car!) that exceeding the speed limit is illegal and so will never be condoned by an examiner and that if you can’t safely complete the overtake within the speed limit it is not on. It is unusual imhe to be able to achieve an overtake on a test. If in doubt you can always ask your examiner at the outset what their views are - maybe some are more lenient.
Of course, in the real world, you can apply the same theory and use common sense to get past as quickly and safely as possible ;-)
Chris
Of course, in the real world, you can apply the same theory and use common sense to get past as quickly and safely as possible ;-)
Chris
Biker9090 said:
Must admit this isn't the first time I've been given conflicting info. This guy also was adamant you should be moving from position 1 to 5 in a 30mph whereas the other instructors seem to want you to stay in 3 unless there is an issue. Who is right here?
In the IAM book "How to be a Better Rider" the advice is more like the latter. This is because positioning in, say, position 1 for a right hand bend in an urban environment is said to be potentially confusing for other road users. However, there is also the idea of the 'safety bubble' - which, as you probably know, encourages riders to imagine a sort of sphere extending a few feet around rider and bike. The point is to try and ensure nothing encroaches on that bubble, or even threatens to encroach on it. So, for instance, say a car seems to be about to reverse out of a driveway ahead - the rider should certainly not take it for granted that the driver will spot the them and stop accordingly. So the rider, who's seen all this in good time, has smoothly created space, using as much of their lane as they can (and perhaps even the whole road, if necessary, and if circumstances permit). So to answer your question more concisely, both are correct. Does this mean there's inconsistency? Personally I say not - but it certainly helps to put some context into the explanation, using the reasoning I've mentioned.
Biker9090 said:
I've been a member of TVAM for a few years now and always seem to lose interest after a few lessons
Instead of struggling with TVAM, I'd invest in a coaching session with Rapid Training. While I think the IAM does a decent job (usually), you will get considerably more benefits and skills from Rapid. The instructor's quality, coaching skills and know-how are in another league from the IAM. Also, a Rapid day is fun 
Translation for car drivers: Rapid Training is like the High-Performance Course of motorcycling. (But I enjoyed Rapid more!)
Biker9090 said:
Now this guy moans at me and tells me i'd fail because I didn't do it quick enough and a car doing 50 in a 60 then it shouldn't be overtaken.
When I think this is right I'll give up biking. The ability to quickly and easily dispatch slower moving traffic is the whole point of the things on the road. If you're just gonna sit in traffic you mights as well be comfy in the car.
Never got on with the IAM bods, tried several times. Mostly seem to be holier than thou, listen to me types.
Last time I went to an introductory presentation where the presenter ranted for 20 minutes about people riding in jeans.
I just sat there, in my jeans and waited until he'd finished, then just got up and left.
Last time I went to an introductory presentation where the presenter ranted for 20 minutes about people riding in jeans.
I just sat there, in my jeans and waited until he'd finished, then just got up and left.
Rapid Training (utterly brilliant) is the way to go, not the IAM.
I did consider going through the IAM on bikes as I've done IAM and RoSPA in cars... I'm not so sure now!
As has been said, the benefit to a bike is you can progress on a journey much quicker than in a car, overtakes, filtering etc.
On my IAM Car I did find it a tad dull as everything was done at or below the limit. RoSPA was better as you are encouraged to, when it was safe to do so, press on.
Example was on my RoSPA test, examiner who was a traffic officer said right at the beginning, "If an overtake opportunity presents itself I expect you to go for it. You can disregard the posted limit until the overtake is complete provided you bring your speed back down once complete".
Overtake did present itself, exceeded the limit to get by, brought speed back to 60 after using acceleration sense and examiner was very complimentary. Passed with a Gold.
As has been said, the benefit to a bike is you can progress on a journey much quicker than in a car, overtakes, filtering etc.
On my IAM Car I did find it a tad dull as everything was done at or below the limit. RoSPA was better as you are encouraged to, when it was safe to do so, press on.
Example was on my RoSPA test, examiner who was a traffic officer said right at the beginning, "If an overtake opportunity presents itself I expect you to go for it. You can disregard the posted limit until the overtake is complete provided you bring your speed back down once complete".
Overtake did present itself, exceeded the limit to get by, brought speed back to 60 after using acceleration sense and examiner was very complimentary. Passed with a Gold.
Salted_Peanut said:
Rapid Training (utterly brilliant) is the way to go, not the IAM.
I’m glad to hear that, I’m doing level 2 Roadmaster in May, I did HPC a few years ago, and enjoyed that. Salted_Peanut said:
Rapid Training (utterly brilliant) is the way to go, not the IAM.
But Rapid (which is excellent) is probably nearly ten times the price?A Rapid Training coaching day is £265, whereas an IAM bike course costs £149. But you’ll get (even) more value from Rapid, IME.
Another excellent option is Survival Skills. It’s more affordable than Rapid, but only available in the South of England.
I’ve nothing against the IAM (I’ve got a F1RST), but Rapid and Survival Skills are significantly better.
Another excellent option is Survival Skills. It’s more affordable than Rapid, but only available in the South of England.
I’ve nothing against the IAM (I’ve got a F1RST), but Rapid and Survival Skills are significantly better.
Edited by Salted_Peanut on Friday 28th January 21:43
I don’t really understand a lot of this advanced rider theory.
I get why they can’t and don’t advocate excess speed, but I was always taught to ride to the limit where possible and don’t dawdle in order to preserve a safe bubble around you. Within reason you want to complete an overtake as swiftly as possible without going so fast you can’t complete the manoeuvre safety. With this in mind a car doing 50 in a 60 is definitely fair game.
I think the safest riding position is with no other vehicles near you, not stuck sitting behind someone with the additional risk of vehicles behind you.
I get why they can’t and don’t advocate excess speed, but I was always taught to ride to the limit where possible and don’t dawdle in order to preserve a safe bubble around you. Within reason you want to complete an overtake as swiftly as possible without going so fast you can’t complete the manoeuvre safety. With this in mind a car doing 50 in a 60 is definitely fair game.
I think the safest riding position is with no other vehicles near you, not stuck sitting behind someone with the additional risk of vehicles behind you.
As a road safety charity, the IAM is never going to officially condone speeding. So when preparing an associate for a test, overtakes should be within the limit at all times. Some examiners have been known to hint that they won’t worry about you exceeding NSL on a safe overtake, but you can’t rely on that, so best to practice the fully legal version.
Most TVAM social runs just say observe 30/40/50 but it’s your license and decision in NSL, but this is outside of the coaching for the test situation. I have been on some pretty fast social runs…
Most TVAM social runs just say observe 30/40/50 but it’s your license and decision in NSL, but this is outside of the coaching for the test situation. I have been on some pretty fast social runs…
66mpg said:
My IAM group has Rapid Training due to deliver a presentation about their services at a forthcoming club night so it appears they may complement IAM training.
When I did HPC in my car I think that IAM/RoSPA was expected as a starting level.
If you have done IAM or similar before you can enter Rap Training courses at level 2. When I did HPC in my car I think that IAM/RoSPA was expected as a starting level.
Salted_Peanut said:
Instead of struggling with TVAM, I'd invest in a coaching session with Rapid Training. While I think the IAM does a decent job (usually), you will get considerably more benefits and skills from Rapid. The instructor's quality, coaching skills and know-how are in another league from the IAM. Also, a Rapid day is fun
Translation for car drivers: Rapid Training is like the High-Performance Course of motorcycling. (But I enjoyed Rapid more!)
I agree 100%.Translation for car drivers: Rapid Training is like the High-Performance Course of motorcycling. (But I enjoyed Rapid more!)
Edited by zzrman on Thursday 10th February 20:10
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