Road position on a long left hand bend

[Johnnytheboy]

You're driving round a very long, fairly fast (50mph?) left hand curve on a minor road.

No white line in the middle of the road, no pavement and *just* wide enough for two normal size vehicles to pass.

Where do you position yourself, and why?

This is the road that has made me think about this:

https://goo.gl/maps/ZG4p7NABmef8wqsH9

[_Hoppers]

Towards the RHS of the road to improve my view (NB not to get a view), but travelling at a speed I could move over to the left in good time should an oncoming vehicle come into view.

[Johnnytheboy]

OK, so I was hoping for more abuse (being the OP), but then I haven't said what I do yet!

I notice some people travel quite a long way over to the right, while I stay very close to the verge.

My reasoning being that the worst-case scenario is a large, fast vehicle coming the other way, as a pedestrian is walking along the left-hand verge. If I am on the right I would need to steer left towards the pedestrian and brake, whereas if I'm on the left I would need only to brake.

As it's a fairly gentle left turn, I see a pedestrian before I would need to brake for them.

I've seen a few of the people that travel far to the right have to swerve quite violently to avoid oncoming cars, so instinctively it doesn't seem like good practice.

[super7]

Johnnytheboy said:

OK, so I was hoping for more abuse (being the OP), but then I haven't said what I do yet!

I notice some people travel quite a long way over to the right, while I stay very close to the verge.

My reasoning being that the worst-case scenario is a large, fast vehicle coming the other way, as a pedestrian is walking along the left-hand verge. If I am on the right I would need to steer left towards the pedestrian and brake, whereas if I'm on the left I would need only to brake.

As it's a fairly gentle left turn, I see a pedestrian before I would need to brake for them.

I've seen a few of the people that travel far to the right have to swerve quite violently to avoid oncoming cars, so instinctively it doesn't seem like good practice.

Depends on whether your'e trying to "make progress" or not??

Technically, moving to a RHS position gives you a better view through a corner, better visibility of pedestrians and vehicles, but a more left, verge hugging position would need to involve a much lower speed as there's less time to react....

Are we Rallying or just out for a general trip to the shops???

[Johnnytheboy]

Driving home from work!

As I say, my view is based on the fact that driving on the right on a corner this gradual doesn't seem to afford any speed advantage.

[bigandclever]

To me that looks like such a gentle bend for 50 that staying leftish would be fine.

If I had local knowledge and suspected that bikers enjoyed that road too, I'd also probably keep leftish

[millik]

Johnnytheboy said:

Driving home from work!

As I say, my view is based on the fact that driving on the right on a corner this gradual doesn't seem to afford any speed advantage.

Positioning to the right would be for advantage in vision, (ie to be see further / more of the road in order to see any hazard earlier) NOT to increase the speed.

[ScoobyChris]

Johnnytheboy said:

Driving home from work!

As I say, my view is based on the fact that driving on the right on a corner this gradual doesn't seem to afford any speed advantage.

If we assume that speed is dictated by being able to stop in the distance we can see is clear, and being "offside" develops further visibility of the road ahead then surely that distance is greater and so we can potentially carry more speed? As well as you increasing your vision, you will also be seen earlier by oncomers which should give you plenty of time to plan to deal with them. If you are tucked into the verge, the oncomer is going to see you later. Nothing wrong with that, obviously - comes down to what are your motivations for asking the question

Also interesting that you mention people needing to "swerve violently" - at what point are they reacting to the oncomer? Do they see them and think "oh my god, I'm on the wrong side of the road" and over-react to get back on their side where in reality they could just tuck in, or are they reacting way too late when it all gets a bit bum-clenchingly close and need to take evaisve action?

Chris

[captain.scarlet]

Johnnytheboy said:

OK, so I was hoping for more abuse (being the OP), but then I haven't said what I do yet!

I notice some people travel quite a long way over to the right, while I stay very close to the verge.

My reasoning being that the worst-case scenario is a large, fast vehicle coming the other way, as a pedestrian is walking along the left-hand verge. If I am on the right I would need to steer left towards the pedestrian and brake, whereas if I'm on the left I would need only to brake.

As it's a fairly gentle left turn, I see a pedestrian before I would need to brake for them.

I've seen a few of the people that travel far to the right have to swerve quite violently to avoid oncoming cars, so instinctively it doesn't seem like good practice.

I'd also keep closer to the verge on the left. The blindness and angle of the bend would make me slow right down and keep sufficiently left.

On a speed awareness course that I was on nearly 2 years ago this was helpful revision!

[Johnnytheboy]

ScoobyChris said:

If we assume that speed is dictated by being able to stop in the distance we can see is clear, and being "offside" develops further visibility of the road ahead then surely that distance is greater and so we can potentially carry more speed? As well as you increasing your vision, you will also be seen earlier by oncomers which should give you plenty of time to plan to deal with them. If you are tucked into the verge, the oncomer is going to see you later. Nothing wrong with that, obviously - comes down to what are your motivations for asking the question

My take on it being as the road is wide enough for two vehicles I need to be able to stop in the distance I can see to be clear in my original worst case scenario.

If I am significantly over to the right, then I need to be able to either (a) stop in twice the distance I can see to be clear (in the same way one has to if driving down a single width lane), or (b) be able to swerve to the left and stop in the distance I can see to be clear, whichever distance is the greater.

Additionally, though I'm sure even my van can cope admirably, I'm instinctively biased towards braking on my current trajectory, compared to simultaneously braking and tightening my line.

ScoobyChris said:

Also interesting that you mention people needing to "swerve violently" - at what point are they reacting to the oncomer? Do they see them and think "oh my god, I'm on the wrong side of the road" and over-react to get back on their side where in reality they could just tuck in, or are they reacting way too late when it all gets a bit bum-clenchingly close and need to take evaisve action?

I can't really answer for other drivers. But this thread is based on the fact that I am often following drivers who do this right positioning, and it doesn't seem to afford any advantage, as they don't seem to be able to go faster than I can, and they seem to have to correct quite rapidly if a vehicle comes the other way.

This particular road - being uphill from the other direction until the point I Google-Maps-linked to - seems to feature oncoming traffic going rather faster than the traffic in my direction discussed.

[Bannock]

Head above parapet: 50 looks too fast for that road. I'd be keeping left, and keeping to 40.

[Johnnytheboy]

Bannock said:

Head above parapet: 50 looks too fast for that road. I'd be keeping left, and keeping to 40.

It's really not, Google Maps can be deceptive. 50 is fine - 60 in the dark.

[mac96]

Where are drawing comparisons to other road users, perhaps your van gives you a height and therefor view advantage over some of them, which may account for their different behaviour?

[Bannock]

Johnnytheboy said:

Bannock said:

Head above parapet: 50 looks too fast for that road. I'd be keeping left, and keeping to 40.

It's really not, Google Maps can be deceptive. 50 is fine - 60 in the dark.

If 50 is fine, why are you asking the question? You are evidently creating a risk at this speed which you're trying to mitigate. Which says to me that it's the speed which might be the problem, not the positioning. I'm not sure going faster in the dark is a brilliant idea either, given the risk of unlit cyclists or darkly clothed pedestrians.

[dvenman]

Johnnytheboy said:

It's really not, Google Maps can be deceptive. 50 is fine - 60 in the dark.

The system is IPSGA - position first then adjust the speed appropriately. If you position nearside then the speed is necessarily lower than an offside position. Either way speed needs to be such that you can stop is 1/2 the distance you can see to be clear...

[sociopath]

bigandclever said:

To me that looks like such a gentle bend for 50 that staying leftish would be fine.

If I had local knowledge and suspected that bikers enjoyed that road too, I'd also probably keep leftish

If that's the bend in question I'd say it's hardly a bend, and if you're within the legal limit, road positioning would be pretty much irrelevant, so stay on the left.

[asuda]

I position myself for meeting an imaginary skip /bus/cycle/pedestrians, ie i own the road so down the middle and move over when needed.PS i would move over to be overtaken.

[akirk]

The only reason for moving out right is to increase the distance you can see.
You increase distance to give yourself more contingency / time to plan
If that extra time is not greater than the extra time needed to move back left then you have overall reduced your time / safety

So, it can be worth moving right if it allows you to see through several bends / see past the bend, but if all it does is give you a view of another few foot of the same bend then probably not worth it...

if pedestrians are a concern then I would not be hugging the left verge but be central in my lane to allow space - also the road condition on the verge side can often be broken and bad for driving on / fallen ranches may stick out / there can be storm drains / etc. so I wouldn't hug a left verge without knowing what is behind...

simple answer is drive in your lane and slow down - gain your speed by being balanced and in the right gear / at the right speed to maximise acceleration as you come out of the corner rather than squeezing every advantage out of going into the corner and losing your safety margin

[bigandclever]

sociopath said:

bigandclever said:

To me that looks like such a gentle bend for 50 that staying leftish would be fine.

If I had local knowledge and suspected that bikers enjoyed that road too, I'd also probably keep leftish

If that's the bend in question I'd say it's hardly a bend, and if you're within the legal limit, road positioning would be pretty much irrelevant, so stay on the left.

It's the same road, a bit further down.



The figure is the OP's picture; the green blob is where mine is. But you can see it's basically a long, pretty shallow, sweeping curve.

[Johnnytheboy]

akirk said:

if pedestrians are a concern then I would not be hugging the left verge but be central in my lane to allow space - also the road condition on the verge side can often be broken and bad for driving on / fallen ranches may stick out / there can be storm drains / etc. so I wouldn't hug a left verge without knowing what is behind...

simple answer is drive in your lane and slow down...

My point is the lane is only wide enough for two cars and has no road markings, so staying central in my lane = hugging the left verge.