Indicators, indicating, and when not to...

[whiteyB]

I'm a casual browser of Reddit and came across this topic discussing when people indicate. I was a bit surprised at the overwhelming majority of commenters saying they indicate all the time, and almost villifying the few who were trying to put forward the view against awlays signalling.
There seems to be a group who are saying they do it every time because there's always the possibility you've missed someone/something and that signal might prevent an accident - am I bad in thinking that's not the right attitude to have? Like most here (I'm guessing) I indicate when it's necessary, when, to paraphrase Roadcraft, someone would benefit from that signal. Then there are some who say they do it to make sure they stay in the habit of doing it, and for those people I just hope I don't come across them on the road.

[Canon_Fodder]

whiteyB said:

There seems to be a group who are saying they do it every time because there's always the possibility you've missed someone/something and that signal might prevent an accident

I'm in this camp.

[DannyScene]

Canon_Fodder said:

whiteyB said:

There seems to be a group who are saying they do it every time because there's always the possibility you've missed someone/something and that signal might prevent an accident

I'm in this camp.

I'd tend to agree with you

For the miniscule effort it takes to do it why not, better safe than sorry

[dvenman]

The only thing an indicator blinking tells you is that the bulb is working. It is most likely to be an indication of the vehicle's intent (or it's been left on, not cancelled, or it's telling you what you already know because it's been used after the fact).

I'm of the camp that I won't indicate if there *is no one* who'll benefit, I will indicate if I'm not sure there is not someone who'll benefit, and I'll indicate if there is someone I can see who'll benefit.

The IPSGA model for RoadCraft has a "TUG" acronym for the information phase - Take, Use, Give - and each phase is considered. The "Give" element is using indicators or vehicle positioning or hand signals to let other road users know of your intentions.

It all boils down to treating driving as an active process not a passive one, and for me the process I use to determine whether to indicate or not reinforces the observation (Take / Use) element so it's self-serving. Habitually signalling turns the active process into a passive one. Yes, it's a miniscule effort and takes very little energy but it's the process behind it which drives my decision to indicate or not.

Whether other people indicate or not isn't my concern, I'll make my driving decisions based on what I can see and anticipate and although other people's indications may form a part of that I don't rely on it.

[sociopath]

I indicate pretty much whenever I manoeuvre, regardless of if it's actually "required" or not, because would you want to be blamed in an incident because you decided it wasn't required and the police disagreed with you?

[whiteyB]

dvenman said:

I'm of the camp that I won't indicate if there *is no one* who'll benefit, I will indicate if I'm not sure there is not someone who'll benefit, and I'll indicate if there is someone I can see who'll benefit.

Agree entirely. I'm always thinking about TUG, so I'm actively deciding when or when not to indicate. If people go through all their observations, then decide that eventhough no one will benefit, they'll do it anyway, I have less issue with that. But I feel that most people who do it routinely are doing it precisely because it is just routine.

[whiteyB]

sociopath said:

I indicate pretty much whenever I manoeuvre, regardless of if it's actually "required" or not, because would you want to be blamed in an incident because you decided it wasn't required and the police disagreed with you?

If I get in an accident that would have been prevented by me indicating, then I've failed somewhere else, eg my observations. I cannot think of a reasonable scenario where I would deem it not necessary to indicate, but then get in some kind of colision that would have been prevented had I signaled. But I'm all ears if you can

[paulrockliffe]

DannyScene said:

Canon_Fodder said:

whiteyB said:

There seems to be a group who are saying they do it every time because there's always the possibility you've missed someone/something and that signal might prevent an accident

I'm in this camp.

I'd tend to agree with you

For the miniscule effort it takes to do it why not, better safe than sorry

Your thought process should be, "Do I need to indicate?" "I don't know, I will check."

If you indicate just in case, your awareness of what is going on around you will naturally fall and you will be less safe and you will not know you're less safe.

It's also helpful for everyone if you aim to drive in a way that requires minimal use of indication. In most circumstances it should be clear what your intention is without indication, clear or irrelevant.

Eg coming to a giveway sign, are you going left or right? It's really clear from your car position what the answer is.

If you're exiting on a sliproad and don't need to slow down to do so, telling the car behind your intention is irrelevant.

Edited by paulrockliffe on Thursday 7th October 13:16

[waremark]

DannyScene said:

Canon_Fodder said:

whiteyB said:

There seems to be a group who are saying they do it every time because there's always the possibility you've missed someone/something and that signal might prevent an accident

I'm in this camp.

I'd tend to agree with you

For the miniscule effort it takes to do it why not, better safe than sorry

By that logic when you walk into an empty room you would always say hello.

Many drivers signal when it is too late to be useful. For a signal to be useful people observing it must have time to respond, so you need hear several clicks of the indicator before changing speed or direction. If you find yourself changing direction before waiting that long then perhaps you had actually decided that there was no need for a signal.

I believe that the need to make a conscious decision in good time of whether to signal helps improve one's observation and therefore safety. Changing from always signalling as a routine to signalling selectively helps develop the more aware driving of an advanced driver.

[sociopath]

whiteyB said:

sociopath said:

I indicate pretty much whenever I manoeuvre, regardless of if it's actually "required" or not, because would you want to be blamed in an incident because you decided it wasn't required and the police disagreed with you?

If I get in an accident that would have been prevented by me indicating, then I've failed somewhere else, eg my observations. I cannot think of a reasonable scenario where I would deem it not necessary to indicate, but then get in some kind of colision that would have been prevented had I signaled. But I'm all ears if you can

I've no idea if there's a reasonable scenario or not, but I'd still I dicate because otherwise the moron causing the incident has an excuse otherwise which could be used against me.

For the record, 3 accidents in 40 years, all non-fault, 2 when I was stationary at red traffic lights and one when someone pulled out without indicating as I drove past

[waremark]

waremark said:

I believe that the need to make a conscious decision in good time of whether to signal helps improve one's observation and therefore safety. Changing from always signalling as a routine to signalling selectively helps develop the more aware driving of an advanced driver.

By the way, I recommend not signalling if you can know there will be nobody to benefit, but if in doubt of whether anybody may benefit by all means signal.

[efcgriswold]

If there’s no one around I don’t indicate. If I’m in a left or right turn only lane, I don’t indicate.

[Oilchange]

As far as I remember it isn't a legal requirement to indicate but is recommended as in the highway code (someone will be along to either correct or corroborate).
Indicating is useful for me when it's clear to me it would make a difference and when I'm unsure, which is more often than not but I don't always do it. And those indicators that give you 3 or 4 flashes regardless of whether you asked for them drive me nuts!

[RUSTILLDOWN]

For a left / right change in direction I always indicate, however, on a motorway / dual carriageway I indicate when necessary and time it appropriately.

I detest people that indicate early to change into my lane when there’s no gap or when there’s very few cars on the road and waiting a couple of seconds will be beneficial for both of us. Instead they’re concerned I’ll hit them and I’m concerned I’ll have to brake or try and change lanes myself and potentially impact someone else too!

I often want to scream, MIRROR THEN SIGNAL but I don’t waste my energy as I know the world is full of inconsiderate and stupid people.

[Green1man]

Remember it’s all other road users you are indicating to and pedestrians (in particular) might not be so easy to spot. I tend to indicate almost all the time, the following example might give a good example of why…..

I walk the dog each morning down a selection of sparsely used country roads. Typically we walk down the middle of the road and meet a car about once a week. On one section the road meets another (slightly busier section). When a car is on the busier road if it turns down my road it will frequently not indicate, it will then have to slow down as I get the dog (and myself) off the road. If the car indicates it gives me plenty of time to be out of the way before the car gets to me. I’ve had non indicating drivers being annoyed at having to slow down, “use your f**king indicators”. Whilst I can easily see (and hear) the car approaching, ot is more difficult for the driver to pick up a pedestrian on a side road.

[dvenman]

Oilchange said:

As far as I remember it isn't a legal requirement to indicate but is recommended as in the highway code (someone will be along to either correct or corroborate)

That'll be me then - corroboration, not correction. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/gener... says "should always" but not "must" ... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/intro... gives more detail.

So if you don't signal but it means you're liable...

[paulrockliffe]

RUSTILLDOWN said:

I detest people that indicate early to change into my lane when there’s no gap or when there’s very few cars on the road and waiting a couple of seconds will be beneficial for both of us. Instead they’re concerned I’ll hit them and I’m concerned I’ll have to brake or try and change lanes myself and potentially impact someone else too!.

Yep, it's all about the message. If you're indicating and there's no gap, what message are you sending? I might crash into you. How is that useful to anyone?

If you use the indicate to say that you are about to move, then that is useful because if you need to let the car behind know then the gap is there, but not massive, the car behind may want to ease off or change their intention as a result.

There are some circumstances where you need to indicate to ask for a gap, but it should be rare and it's caused by cars following far too close together.

I thought of another good example too; I live on a semi-busy road just after a junction, the layout lets cars come around the corner quickly. If I indicate to turn off at the junction then I almost immediately need to indicate again as I pull up outside the house to reverse onto the drive. If the car behind has a gap they can come round the corner, see my indicator and assume it's still on, rather than a new signal and miss my intention to stop. If I don't indicate to turn, they're then less likely to crash into me as I stop.

[Len Woodman]

In some countries signalling is required by legislation.

In New South Wales, 'Straya it is required to signal for five seconds before moving away from a stationery (parked) position.

ROAD RULES 2014 - REG 48 Giving a right change of direction signal:
(1) Before a driver changes direction to the right, the driver must give a right change of direction signal in accordance with rule 49 for long enough to comply with subrule (2) and, if subrule (3) applies to the driver, that subrule.
: Maximum penalty--20 penalty units.
Note :
"Changes direction to the right" is defined in rule 45(3).

(2) The driver must give the change of direction signal for long enough to give sufficient warning to other drivers and pedestrians.

(3) If the driver is about to change direction by moving from a stationary position at the side of the road or in a median strip parking area, the driver must give the change of direction signal for at least 5 seconds before the driver changes direction.
Note :
"Median strip parking area" is defined in the Dictionary.
(3A) Subrule (3) does not apply to the rider of a bicycle that is stopped in traffic but not parked.

(4) The driver must stop giving the change of direction signal as soon as the driver completes the change of direction.
: Maximum penalty--20 penalty units.

(5) This rule does not apply to--
(a) the driver of a tram that is not fitted with direction indicator lights, or
(b) the rider of a bicycle making a hook turn.

[_Hoppers]

waremark said:

I believe that the need to make a conscious decision in good time of whether to signal helps improve one's observation and therefore safety. Changing from always signalling as a routine to signalling selectively helps develop the more aware driving of an advanced driver.

I was gonna to pretty much say the same thing.

[andrebar]

_Hoppers said:

waremark said:

I believe that the need to make a conscious decision in good time of whether to signal helps improve one's observation and therefore safety. Changing from always signalling as a routine to signalling selectively helps develop the more aware driving of an advanced driver.

I was gonna to pretty much say the same thing.

This is exactly what I was taught 30+ years ago. Best example I remember was not using left indicator to signal completing an uneventful overtake. Which could be misconstrued as “oh crap I forgot I needed to turn left/exit the motorway here & am now going to slam the anchors on”.