Advanced Riding. Too early?
Discussion
Hi all,
I've been a member of the IAM since 2009 and RoSPA since 2017. I've completed numerous advanced tests over the years and achieved the levels I wanted in a car.
I then went and got my motorcycle license in July.
Many of the skills are transferable like observation (Though turned up to 11), hazard awareness, limit points, IPSGA etc. Some skills though I'm finding aren't like positioning, braking zones etc.
I've covered around 1000 miles on my GSF 1200 in past two months and slowly building confidence but not at a speed I'm happy with and find I'm still making silly mistakes that eventually could become big mistakes (Misjudging entry speed, braking abit late, positioning). Don't make these mistakes regularly, but I'm still not happy with them. Whenever I see another bike they seem to be able to take bends at speeds I daren't.
Is it too early to look at an Advanced Riding Course? I don't want to feel like a complete rookie and frustrate the observers by making basic errors but I want to be as safe as possible and pick up as many skills as I can.
Input from anyone who has been through the course would be very much appreciated.
I've been a member of the IAM since 2009 and RoSPA since 2017. I've completed numerous advanced tests over the years and achieved the levels I wanted in a car.
I then went and got my motorcycle license in July.
Many of the skills are transferable like observation (Though turned up to 11), hazard awareness, limit points, IPSGA etc. Some skills though I'm finding aren't like positioning, braking zones etc.
I've covered around 1000 miles on my GSF 1200 in past two months and slowly building confidence but not at a speed I'm happy with and find I'm still making silly mistakes that eventually could become big mistakes (Misjudging entry speed, braking abit late, positioning). Don't make these mistakes regularly, but I'm still not happy with them. Whenever I see another bike they seem to be able to take bends at speeds I daren't.
Is it too early to look at an Advanced Riding Course? I don't want to feel like a complete rookie and frustrate the observers by making basic errors but I want to be as safe as possible and pick up as many skills as I can.
Input from anyone who has been through the course would be very much appreciated.
I'd say, Watch Reg Local's bike videos, read motorcycle roadcraft - Make a conscious effort to practice carefully each part (On a different drive; i.e. Watch & focus on steering one day, braking the next) - Once you've done that, You've got a good jumping off point for going into an IAM course where you'd be ready to polish your knowledge and implementation of the motorcycle-specific skills with some coaching, rather than "wasting" the taught sessions being introduced to the basics.
So, Essentially, As above - find a road and ride it 100 times, just with a bit of extra guidance
So, Essentially, As above - find a road and ride it 100 times, just with a bit of extra guidance
I am not a great fan of riding the same piece of road constantly. You generally learn very little. Get on an unfamiliar road and if you continue to to make the same mistakes it those that need looking at.
Bends need to be read early to assess the limit point. Look beyond the bend for the exit use the road markings and signs to help in you decisions.
Get some training by all means but get someone who can help.
Bends need to be read early to assess the limit point. Look beyond the bend for the exit use the road markings and signs to help in you decisions.
Get some training by all means but get someone who can help.
'Advanced' riding/driving is too often regarded as some esoteric set of techniques, and this is misleading.
Advanced driving tests are so called because they are a set up from the ordinary driving test, advanced being a purely a relative term. Any training or coaching you do to get beyond passing the DSA test is advanced, whether it's professional instruction, getting feedback from mates who know what they are doing, or anything in between. Even if it's just to avoid slipping into bad habits without realising.
So no, it's never too early.
Advanced driving tests are so called because they are a set up from the ordinary driving test, advanced being a purely a relative term. Any training or coaching you do to get beyond passing the DSA test is advanced, whether it's professional instruction, getting feedback from mates who know what they are doing, or anything in between. Even if it's just to avoid slipping into bad habits without realising.
So no, it's never too early.
CoreyDog said:
Hi all,
I've been a member of the IAM since 2009 and RoSPA since 2017. I've completed numerous advanced tests over the years and achieved the levels I wanted in a car.
I then went and got my motorcycle license in July.
Many of the skills are transferable like observation (Though turned up to 11), hazard awareness, limit points, IPSGA etc. Some skills though I'm finding aren't like positioning, braking zones etc.
I've covered around 1000 miles on my GSF 1200 in past two months and slowly building confidence but not at a speed I'm happy with and find I'm still making silly mistakes that eventually could become big mistakes (Misjudging entry speed, braking abit late, positioning). Don't make these mistakes regularly, but I'm still not happy with them. Whenever I see another bike they seem to be able to take bends at speeds I daren't.
Is it too early to look at an Advanced Riding Course? I don't want to feel like a complete rookie and frustrate the observers by making basic errors but I want to be as safe as possible and pick up as many skills as I can.
Input from anyone who has been through the course would be very much appreciated.
Reg Local was for years an anti-biker but around 3 years ago something twigged and he bought a bike and quickly went through his advanced training - its never too soon, acquiring skills and knowledge from somebody else who knows what they are doing especially when on two wheels just accelerates the process of being able to ride more safely and better. I've been a member of the IAM since 2009 and RoSPA since 2017. I've completed numerous advanced tests over the years and achieved the levels I wanted in a car.
I then went and got my motorcycle license in July.
Many of the skills are transferable like observation (Though turned up to 11), hazard awareness, limit points, IPSGA etc. Some skills though I'm finding aren't like positioning, braking zones etc.
I've covered around 1000 miles on my GSF 1200 in past two months and slowly building confidence but not at a speed I'm happy with and find I'm still making silly mistakes that eventually could become big mistakes (Misjudging entry speed, braking abit late, positioning). Don't make these mistakes regularly, but I'm still not happy with them. Whenever I see another bike they seem to be able to take bends at speeds I daren't.
Is it too early to look at an Advanced Riding Course? I don't want to feel like a complete rookie and frustrate the observers by making basic errors but I want to be as safe as possible and pick up as many skills as I can.
Input from anyone who has been through the course would be very much appreciated.
Keith
red said:
I am not a great fan of riding the same piece of road constantly. You generally learn very little. Get on an unfamiliar road and if you continue to to make the same mistakes it those that need looking at.
Bends need to be read early to assess the limit point. Look beyond the bend for the exit use the road markings and signs to help in you decisions.
Get some training by all means but get someone who can help.
Bends need to be read early to assess the limit point. Look beyond the bend for the exit use the road markings and signs to help in you decisions.
Get some training by all means but get someone who can help.
It's not about learning, it's about confidence.
Look at www.rapidtraining.co.uk
They are excellent. The fact that you have only recently passed your test makes no difference.
I use them for refreshers every 2 years or so.
They are excellent. The fact that you have only recently passed your test makes no difference.
I use them for refreshers every 2 years or so.
zzrman said:
Look at www.rapidtraining.co.uk
They are excellent. The fact that you have only recently passed your test makes no difference.
+1 for Rapid Training. Utterly brilliant They are excellent. The fact that you have only recently passed your test makes no difference.
Also, Kevin Williams at Survival Skills is great
I had done no advanced training but I spoke to someone from the IAM at a local police road safety event and he recommended getting a year of experience of riding before signing up to the IAM.
With that year it gives you chance to get used to the controls of the bike and they become natural to do. I did 10k miles in that 12 months then signed up unfortunately it took another 6 months to actually start being observed.
With that year it gives you chance to get used to the controls of the bike and they become natural to do. I did 10k miles in that 12 months then signed up unfortunately it took another 6 months to actually start being observed.
Bungleaio said:
I had done no advanced training but I spoke to someone from the IAM at a local police road safety event and he recommended getting a year of experience of riding before signing up to the IAM.
As an IAM observer, I’d fairly strongly disagree with that view. No reason not to start as soon as you’ve passed your test. It might take longer to get ready for the advanced test, but you also won’t have got into bad habits that you then have to unlearn.I went 'the other way'.....
Having been an Advanced rider (and tutor) for several years I wanted to do my car Advanced but, due to Covid, no car trainign was taking place.
Fortunately a friend, who was a RoSPA examiner, took me out and pointed out a couple of things I could do better!!
I then put in for my test, with RoSPA, and achieved a Gold! One aspect I was not (and still am not) comfortable with was giving a commentary on my drive. BUT you don't have to do that on the bike!!
The differences between car and bike are subtle (positioning, visibility and gear selection ++) but as an Advanced driver it should not be long for you to pick these up.
I would reccommend signing up with the IAM for their course. Once you are assigned an Observer you can work together in ironing out the wrinkles and then find out how much fun you can have (legally!!)
Having been an Advanced rider (and tutor) for several years I wanted to do my car Advanced but, due to Covid, no car trainign was taking place.
Fortunately a friend, who was a RoSPA examiner, took me out and pointed out a couple of things I could do better!!
I then put in for my test, with RoSPA, and achieved a Gold! One aspect I was not (and still am not) comfortable with was giving a commentary on my drive. BUT you don't have to do that on the bike!!
The differences between car and bike are subtle (positioning, visibility and gear selection ++) but as an Advanced driver it should not be long for you to pick these up.
I would reccommend signing up with the IAM for their course. Once you are assigned an Observer you can work together in ironing out the wrinkles and then find out how much fun you can have (legally!!)
I would suggest you have gotten a large bike too early, and should hone your skills on something smaller first.
People will tell you "you're in control of the throttle, doesn't matter how big the bike" but that's not reality.
It will be a lot of miles before you relax enough so that the unexpected bump in the road doesn't make you wind the throttle on suddenly, or that a rolling stop/go decision in traffic, around parked cars, etc wont result in a sudden surge towards a parked car.
You will be more nervous into and out of corners because of the huge range of response on the throttle, and will take longer to learn the fine tuning of relaxed throttle handling in those situations, which you would learn much easier on a less powerful bike with less acceleration and more throttle travel.
imo
People will tell you "you're in control of the throttle, doesn't matter how big the bike" but that's not reality.
It will be a lot of miles before you relax enough so that the unexpected bump in the road doesn't make you wind the throttle on suddenly, or that a rolling stop/go decision in traffic, around parked cars, etc wont result in a sudden surge towards a parked car.
You will be more nervous into and out of corners because of the huge range of response on the throttle, and will take longer to learn the fine tuning of relaxed throttle handling in those situations, which you would learn much easier on a less powerful bike with less acceleration and more throttle travel.
imo
I passed my motorbike test 16/9 and collected my first bike, a new BMW G310R 25/9. I turned up at my local IAM group meeting 3/10. They let me have a taster ride, along with a returning biker on a Yamaha XJR1300, with an observer. It was his opinion that I would be fine to go for it. As I did IAM for cars in 2013 I regard it as a conversion course, rather than a start from scratch. I will be joking them as an associate 5/12. I have ridden over 1500 miles since that taster ride so I feel more confident than I did on that day.
cpszx said:
I would suggest you have gotten a large bike too early, and should hone your skills on something smaller first.
People will tell you "you're in control of the throttle, doesn't matter how big the bike" but that's not reality.
It will be a lot of miles before you relax enough so that the unexpected bump in the road doesn't make you wind the throttle on suddenly, or that a rolling stop/go decision in traffic, around parked cars, etc wont result in a sudden surge towards a parked car.
You will be more nervous into and out of corners because of the huge range of response on the throttle, and will take longer to learn the fine tuning of relaxed throttle handling in those situations, which you would learn much easier on a less powerful bike with less acceleration and more throttle travel.
imo
I totally disagree, I think that's really individual. I'm not saying there aren't benefits to a smaller bike to start with, but I don't think "everybody" would be nervous, take longer to learn, wind the throttle on suddenly etc. I don't remember ever surging towards a parked car, or winding throttle on because of a bend. Some people may be like that, but not everybody.People will tell you "you're in control of the throttle, doesn't matter how big the bike" but that's not reality.
It will be a lot of miles before you relax enough so that the unexpected bump in the road doesn't make you wind the throttle on suddenly, or that a rolling stop/go decision in traffic, around parked cars, etc wont result in a sudden surge towards a parked car.
You will be more nervous into and out of corners because of the huge range of response on the throttle, and will take longer to learn the fine tuning of relaxed throttle handling in those situations, which you would learn much easier on a less powerful bike with less acceleration and more throttle travel.
imo
OP - I did a fair bit of advanced car driving (although never took a test, but a member of HPC etc.), then took my bike license. Immediately bought a "big bike" (1050 triple), and got a 1st with IAM within 12 months. A lot of the skills are transferable; observations, and the general mindset etc. Some are similar but "more so" e.g. road positioning.
What I would say though, is it's very dependent on your observer, your club, and how much time you have to put into it (as well as your mindset obviously, and how quickly you take to things). I'm lucky to have a very active club, I had time to spend with an observer as I was between jobs, lucky with the weather, etc. etc. (Although I took my bike license in December, got my bike in Jan, then took my IAM November IIRC - it was pretty chilly and a bit icy in places the day I took my test).
I did finish the IAM test though thinking, wow, I'm not sure I feel at all advanced. And that it should probably be the basic test pass level :s. I've gone on to do some stuff with Rapid who are excellent (again I'm sure it depends on the person you get), as well as continued self improvement and riding with much more experienced riders to get tips and feedback.
dreamer75 said:
I totally disagree, I think that's really individual. I'm not saying there aren't benefits to a smaller bike to start with, but I don't think "everybody" would be nervous, take longer to learn, wind the throttle on suddenly etc. I don't remember ever surging towards a parked car, or winding throttle on because of a bend. Some people may be like that, but not everybody.
OP - I did a fair bit of advanced car driving (although never took a test, but a member of HPC etc.), then took my bike license. Immediately bought a "big bike" (1050 triple), and got a 1st with IAM within 12 months. A lot of the skills are transferable; observations, and the general mindset etc. Some are similar but "more so" e.g. road positioning.
What I would say though, is it's very dependent on your observer, your club, and how much time you have to put into it (as well as your mindset obviously, and how quickly you take to things). I'm lucky to have a very active club, I had time to spend with an observer as I was between jobs, lucky with the weather, etc. etc. (Although I took my bike license in December, got my bike in Jan, then took my IAM November IIRC - it was pretty chilly and a bit icy in places the day I took my test).
I did finish the IAM test though thinking, wow, I'm not sure I feel at all advanced. And that it should probably be the basic test pass level :s. I've gone on to do some stuff with Rapid who are excellent (again I'm sure it depends on the person you get), as well as continued self improvement and riding with much more experienced riders to get tips and feedback.
I was responding based on the things the OP posted about that they did not feel comfortable about, suggesting a level of nervousness of the bike and riding in general.OP - I did a fair bit of advanced car driving (although never took a test, but a member of HPC etc.), then took my bike license. Immediately bought a "big bike" (1050 triple), and got a 1st with IAM within 12 months. A lot of the skills are transferable; observations, and the general mindset etc. Some are similar but "more so" e.g. road positioning.
What I would say though, is it's very dependent on your observer, your club, and how much time you have to put into it (as well as your mindset obviously, and how quickly you take to things). I'm lucky to have a very active club, I had time to spend with an observer as I was between jobs, lucky with the weather, etc. etc. (Although I took my bike license in December, got my bike in Jan, then took my IAM November IIRC - it was pretty chilly and a bit icy in places the day I took my test).
I did finish the IAM test though thinking, wow, I'm not sure I feel at all advanced. And that it should probably be the basic test pass level :s. I've gone on to do some stuff with Rapid who are excellent (again I'm sure it depends on the person you get), as well as continued self improvement and riding with much more experienced riders to get tips and feedback.
All of the transferable IAM skills, along with a history of road use, will always put a new rider in good stead above a young rider.
Unless you are fearless and graced with naturally perfect hand/eye coordination, immediate mechanical understanding, and can relax your body at will in tense or nervous situations, then all of those things will take time to adjust as a new rider.
Any previous experience of riding a motorcycle when younger, hand throttle control and shared hand brake control, will have provided some muscle memory and understanding that a new rider will take a bit of time to develop.
None of that means they should not go and do the training as soon as they are able, or will hamper their learning, but it will always be a nagging factor that could hold them back from fully committing to a maneuver.
No different to a new driver going straight from an instructors car into a sports or super car. Lack of experience can bite really hard.
Rapid Training and the such like will be excellent for you as it's focused and tailored, so the rate of learning and reinforcement will be exponential in comparison to periodic i.e. monthly IAM observed rides.
Also, HOPP Rider Training Days allow you an opportunity to learn in a safer environment.
Also, HOPP Rider Training Days allow you an opportunity to learn in a safer environment.
cpszx said:
I was responding based on the things the OP posted about that they did not feel comfortable about, suggesting a level of nervousness of the bike and riding in general.
All of the transferable IAM skills, along with a history of road use, will always put a new rider in good stead above a young rider.
Unless you are fearless and graced with naturally perfect hand/eye coordination, immediate mechanical understanding, and can relax your body at will in tense or nervous situations, then all of those things will take time to adjust as a new rider.
Any previous experience of riding a motorcycle when younger, hand throttle control and shared hand brake control, will have provided some muscle memory and understanding that a new rider will take a bit of time to develop.
None of that means they should not go and do the training as soon as they are able, or will hamper their learning, but it will always be a nagging factor that could hold them back from fully committing to a maneuver.
No different to a new driver going straight from an instructors car into a sports or super car. Lack of experience can bite really hard.
Yes agreed that lack of experience can bite hard- no disagreement from me there All of the transferable IAM skills, along with a history of road use, will always put a new rider in good stead above a young rider.
Unless you are fearless and graced with naturally perfect hand/eye coordination, immediate mechanical understanding, and can relax your body at will in tense or nervous situations, then all of those things will take time to adjust as a new rider.
Any previous experience of riding a motorcycle when younger, hand throttle control and shared hand brake control, will have provided some muscle memory and understanding that a new rider will take a bit of time to develop.
None of that means they should not go and do the training as soon as they are able, or will hamper their learning, but it will always be a nagging factor that could hold them back from fully committing to a maneuver.
No different to a new driver going straight from an instructors car into a sports or super car. Lack of experience can bite really hard.
I'm just saying it's very individual and there's no blanket rule. It won't *always* be a problem going straight onto a big bike, and won't *always* be a problem going straight into a sports car. It might be, it might not be. It depends on that person.
Having already got road sense from x years of driving a car, or being mechanically sympathetic, or having previous training etc. etc. are all factors.
The OP didn't sound hugely confident, but I don't necessarily agree that a smaller bike helps; you're just as capable of launching a lower powered bike at a parked car, or taking a wrong line on the road. A good observer or instructor or friend, time on the saddle, and the right attitude can change that really quickly. I don't agree that it will always be a nagging feeling holding someone back from a manoeuvre; yes of course people have things which hold them back (I go through phases of messing up slow lefts... or another week slow rights.... I even stopped on a group ride to have a cry about how rubbish I was about 6 months ago and I've now been riding 3 years, ridden on track, and probably have about 15k miles). But it's not automatically linked to getting a big bike straight away, that's all I'm saying. These things creep up on you due to lots of different reasons.
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