Cycling together on country roads.
Discussion
I am with Jeremy Vine on this.
It is easier and safer for motorists to overtake four cyclists riding together, than four cyclists riding in a line.
In the same way, it is easier to overtake one vehicle than a line of four slow vehicles who travel with little space between them.
I suspect those who disagree with Vine are used to doing close passes on cyclists.
By the way, I cycle, but not in groups, and normally just to get across town, but I do encounter numerous cyclists while out driving on cross country roads for the pleasure of it.
https://www.indy100.com/news/jeremy-vine-cyclists-...
Any consensus here on this?
It is easier and safer for motorists to overtake four cyclists riding together, than four cyclists riding in a line.
In the same way, it is easier to overtake one vehicle than a line of four slow vehicles who travel with little space between them.
I suspect those who disagree with Vine are used to doing close passes on cyclists.
By the way, I cycle, but not in groups, and normally just to get across town, but I do encounter numerous cyclists while out driving on cross country roads for the pleasure of it.
https://www.indy100.com/news/jeremy-vine-cyclists-...
Any consensus here on this?
If the cyclists are four abreast then inevitably you are giving the rightmost rider less room than if there was one rider closer to the kerb. Jeremy Vine also recommended the practice on the grounds that it 'calms', IE obstructs, following traffic. So clearly he reckons it makes overtaking more difficult.
I get most annoyed with cyclists cycling in long snakes that are impossible to pass. A line of twenty or thirty on some windy narrow roads near Loch Lomond caused a massive tail back and delayed us by over an hour once.
Four abreast seems like it might be too much but three abreast is fine. Too many motorists are willing to pass single cyclists when they do not have appropriate visibility on the basis they can squeeze them off the road if needed.
Four abreast seems like it might be too much but three abreast is fine. Too many motorists are willing to pass single cyclists when they do not have appropriate visibility on the basis they can squeeze them off the road if needed.
Dr Jekyll said:
Why not go fully into the opposite lane to overtake a single cyclist? The problem is that even fully into the opposite lane may not give enough room if a cyclist is close to the centre line.
Then that is the cyclists’ look out. If they want a 1.5m gap, then keep at least 1 metre from centre line.
We wouldn't ride like that, but then we're not idiots. We would always ride with our group's safety in mind, that best way to keep safe is to not annoy drivers where possible, there are too many d
heads in cars, as there are too many dheads on bikes.
A small group like that should never really be four abreast, the video looks like 2 would be sensible. It's always a balance between keeping the group short and keeping it narrow to best facilitate the passing of cars for a particular bit of road. Someone with experience should be taking charge and dictating the number of lines for the road and teaching the less experienced. There are local Clubs I wouldn't ride with because they don't do this.
I think there are very occasionally circumstances where going extra wide to stop a dangerous pass is an understandable option, but usually the overriding risk is that poor rider furthest out. Sometimes people forget they're not in their car and do daft stuff.
heads in cars, as there are too many dheads on bikes.A small group like that should never really be four abreast, the video looks like 2 would be sensible. It's always a balance between keeping the group short and keeping it narrow to best facilitate the passing of cars for a particular bit of road. Someone with experience should be taking charge and dictating the number of lines for the road and teaching the less experienced. There are local Clubs I wouldn't ride with because they don't do this.
I think there are very occasionally circumstances where going extra wide to stop a dangerous pass is an understandable option, but usually the overriding risk is that poor rider furthest out. Sometimes people forget they're not in their car and do daft stuff.
A few weeks ago I caught up with two cyclists on a country lane. The road wasn't wide, but sufficient for two normal cars to pass each other. Since there were bends and I couldn't see far enough to safely overtake, I hung well back from the cyclists, leaving me plenty of space to accelerate and pass safely when we were through the curves. In spite of that, one of the cyclists chose to ride in the middle of the road most of the time looking back over his shoulder at me. Presumably, he's had some very bad experiences with cars overtaking him. However, in this case he should have worried more about oncoming traffic as his distraction caused him to wander across the white line and have a very near miss with a car coming from the opposite direction. If there had been a collision the fault would have been with the cyclist. The cyclist swerved away from the oncoming car, had a major wobble, but just managed to avoid a fall. I had space to slow.
The point of all this is neither cyclist nor driver should try to overthink or control other people's behaviour. We need to leave enough space, expect the most unlikely and be patient.
The point of all this is neither cyclist nor driver should try to overthink or control other people's behaviour. We need to leave enough space, expect the most unlikely and be patient.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I drive a 1970's Alfa Spider. It's very similar in size to an MX5. Quite often I can safely overtake other motorists. Cyclists as a compact group will generally be easier to overtake than a single motor vehicle by virtue of their slower speed. To overtake four cyclists riding one in front of the other will take much longer and the safe opportunities will be less, whether for a low vehicle or a high riding one.On the other hand a peleton of cyclists (a long group riding abreast with no gaps for passing vehicles) should be reserved for official races where the roads are closed. It's poor manners for a large group of cyclists to hog the road and not leave gaps for overtaking vehicles.
The guidance from B.C. for ride leaders has always been ‘widen the bus, shorten the bus, reduce T.E.D. for the other road users’ unfortunately, there are far too many other road users who see red when they perceive their progress has been impeded by ( essentially a slow er moving car sized obstacle) which happens to be cyclists ( in this country at least ). Unfortunately, the biggest risk we have to mitigate for, is impatient motorists undertaking risky manoeuvres around a group of vulnerable road users. The effort required to find routes that truly minimise needless risks can make route planning / risk assessment a nightmare. We are all volunteers, we don’t get paid ( anymore). A lot of ride leaders don’t hang around for long anymore.
Dr Jekyll said:
Why not go fully into the opposite lane to overtake a single cyclist? The problem is that even fully into the opposite lane may not give enough room if a cyclist is close to the centre line.
If a single cyclist is in a safe ‘primary’ position, on a lot of single carriageway roads, the legally mandated 3 feet clearance will ( well should, but increasingly rarely does ) result in the overtaker being mostly / entirely in the opposite carriageway. There’s a grey area in regards to a couple of cyclists riding abreast, as far as is it 3 feet from the near side cyclist, or the offside cyclist? When group riding, we are advised to put the stronger / more experienced cyclists offside, just in case there’s any ambiguity.Edited by Backagain on Tuesday 10th August 20:54
Vine is speaking of country roads.
Maybe four abreast will push the right hand cyclist to the crown of the road on anything but A roads.
The highway code now instructs riders to cycle in the centre of their side of the carriageway, for visibility, and to move left to allow for over takes.
It would seem good manners for small groups of cyclists to adopt this on quiet roads, by adjusting to two abreast to allow overtaking. Maybe on busier roads, to adopt two abreast permanently as has been suggested.
As for close passing. It's much worse for a cyclist to be close passed whilst riding only 12 or 18 inches from the kerb or verge as they have nowhere to pull over.
Better (though still unpleasant) to be close passed with free carriageway space to your left.
I guess the problem is that many drivers hate overtaking (I.E. they hate moving to the opposite side of the carriageway), hence they prefer to close pass a long line of cyclists and keep to the left side, whether there is oncoming traffic or not. This is an unfortunate situation, and too common. Many drivers refuse to move out to the right, at some distance behind, to allow proper observation prior to an overtake, instead, tailgating is the norm. It's widespread ignorance.
The four abreast idea is to help motorists to get the hang of using the right hand track when passing (wishful thinking I know, it's much more likely that many motorists will just go into default frustrated tailgating mode with the resulting snail-trail-back).
Maybe four abreast will push the right hand cyclist to the crown of the road on anything but A roads.
The highway code now instructs riders to cycle in the centre of their side of the carriageway, for visibility, and to move left to allow for over takes.
It would seem good manners for small groups of cyclists to adopt this on quiet roads, by adjusting to two abreast to allow overtaking. Maybe on busier roads, to adopt two abreast permanently as has been suggested.
As for close passing. It's much worse for a cyclist to be close passed whilst riding only 12 or 18 inches from the kerb or verge as they have nowhere to pull over.
Better (though still unpleasant) to be close passed with free carriageway space to your left.
I guess the problem is that many drivers hate overtaking (I.E. they hate moving to the opposite side of the carriageway), hence they prefer to close pass a long line of cyclists and keep to the left side, whether there is oncoming traffic or not. This is an unfortunate situation, and too common. Many drivers refuse to move out to the right, at some distance behind, to allow proper observation prior to an overtake, instead, tailgating is the norm. It's widespread ignorance.
The four abreast idea is to help motorists to get the hang of using the right hand track when passing (wishful thinking I know, it's much more likely that many motorists will just go into default frustrated tailgating mode with the resulting snail-trail-back).
When Jeremy talks about riding 4 abreast, I can only think he means whilst staying in one lane. And so yes if riders were doing that it would mean that any overtaking vehicle would pass with less than 1.5m space, but I think that rule needs to be taken in context. If it's a two lane road and you are overtaking using the opposite lane, ie over the centre line, then I would say the 1.5m doesn't apply. I take it as "give at least 1.5m, or be in another lane".
whiteyB said:
When Jeremy talks about riding 4 abreast, I can only think he means whilst staying in one lane. And so yes if riders were doing that it would mean that any overtaking vehicle would pass with less than 1.5m space, but I think that rule needs to be taken in context. If it's a two lane road and you are overtaking using the opposite lane, ie over the centre line, then I would say the 1.5m doesn't apply. I take it as "give at least 1.5m, or be in another lane".
Why? The rider still needs room to fall off whichever lane you are in.Dr Jekyll said:
whiteyB said:
When Jeremy talks about riding 4 abreast, I can only think he means whilst staying in one lane. And so yes if riders were doing that it would mean that any overtaking vehicle would pass with less than 1.5m space, but I think that rule needs to be taken in context. If it's a two lane road and you are overtaking using the opposite lane, ie over the centre line, then I would say the 1.5m doesn't apply. I take it as "give at least 1.5m, or be in another lane".
Why? The rider still needs room to fall off whichever lane you are in.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff