How to adapt FWD petrol driving style to RWD diesel?...
Discussion
So, I am now buying a new (to me) car, and have settled on a 123d (still not sure on e82 or e87).
I did want a mk5 GTI, as I live in Birmingham and was worried about ULEZ charges, but even just saving £150 on road tax will be plenty to make up for the added cost of being charged to go into the ULEZ zone (which the £150 saving would allow me to go into town 18 times a year, which is more than I ever do anyway), not to mention the fact that I'll literally only have to fill up the car half as frequently too, which will save me about £1k a year also.
Anyway, I don't claim to be an absolutely amazing driver or anything, but my driving style is heavily oriented towards FWD petrols (and hence why I currently prefer them), as I'm good at keeping the engine revving within the power band, and I always utilize the engine braking effect to keep the car sticking to the ground through corners. Although, I have heard that engine-braking is not your friend in a RWD car anyway to be fair.
Anyway, I'm excited about driving my first RWD car, and it will be nice to have extra torque than I'm used to, being a diesel and all. Besides, the 123d is pretty rev-happy for a diesel anyway, making top power at 4,500rpm, so it should't feel too foreign.
I'm just wondering though, as I'm so used to engine braking in a petrol, what will be the best way to adapt my driving style to a RWD diesel? I'm kind of guessing that I'll just have to be a bit more firmer on the brakes, and heel-toe a bit later into the corner, but want to make sure this is optimal for grip.
I know I'm kind of overthinking it, but I'd hate to get into the car and start handling it like a donut. FWD feels very natural to me at this point, and I always take corners in a way that tries to prevent under-steer. So, what are some changes I'm going to have to make to make sure I don't go sideways into a tree?
Obviously, I will have to spend some time learning how to correct over-steer correctly, but I've heard people talking about de-clutching and whatnot, which i would never do in a FWD car. So, what do you guys think?
I did want a mk5 GTI, as I live in Birmingham and was worried about ULEZ charges, but even just saving £150 on road tax will be plenty to make up for the added cost of being charged to go into the ULEZ zone (which the £150 saving would allow me to go into town 18 times a year, which is more than I ever do anyway), not to mention the fact that I'll literally only have to fill up the car half as frequently too, which will save me about £1k a year also.
Anyway, I don't claim to be an absolutely amazing driver or anything, but my driving style is heavily oriented towards FWD petrols (and hence why I currently prefer them), as I'm good at keeping the engine revving within the power band, and I always utilize the engine braking effect to keep the car sticking to the ground through corners. Although, I have heard that engine-braking is not your friend in a RWD car anyway to be fair.
Anyway, I'm excited about driving my first RWD car, and it will be nice to have extra torque than I'm used to, being a diesel and all. Besides, the 123d is pretty rev-happy for a diesel anyway, making top power at 4,500rpm, so it should't feel too foreign.
I'm just wondering though, as I'm so used to engine braking in a petrol, what will be the best way to adapt my driving style to a RWD diesel? I'm kind of guessing that I'll just have to be a bit more firmer on the brakes, and heel-toe a bit later into the corner, but want to make sure this is optimal for grip.
I know I'm kind of overthinking it, but I'd hate to get into the car and start handling it like a donut. FWD feels very natural to me at this point, and I always take corners in a way that tries to prevent under-steer. So, what are some changes I'm going to have to make to make sure I don't go sideways into a tree?
Obviously, I will have to spend some time learning how to correct over-steer correctly, but I've heard people talking about de-clutching and whatnot, which i would never do in a FWD car. So, what do you guys think?
It's fair to say that a greater understanding of vehicle handling and the introduction of ESP/VDC and the rest of the driver-aid acronyms means that generally RWD cars are not greatly more intent on slapping the foliage than FWD cars; but I digress.
I'm not a fan of drivers relying on engine braking for the primary stability of the car (Actually, I'm not a fan of drivers who rely on engine braking at all), on the basis that engine braking gives you much less control of the rate of deceleration than using the brakes - you've only got perhaps 3-4 (if you're lucky) very specific rates of braking whilst you have infinite control on the brakes. And if the reason you're putting weight onto the front tyres is for stability, then surely having precise control over that weight transfer can only be a good thing. But, again, I digress.
My current diesel has a reasonable amount of engine braking. It's nowhere near the levels you'll get from a large displacement, normally aspirated petrol engine, but it's not exactly freewheeling like a bicycle. So you just have to get used to the idea that you have to use the brakes every time rather than relying on engine braking to hopefully get you down to the speed you want.
But to be honest, if you're pressing on, you're more likely going to want to be using the brakes anyway. If you're using the rules of thirds (albeit unequal ones), then you accelerate for a third, maintain the sane speed for a third and then decelerate for a third. That last third doesn't have to be engine braking or foundation brakes.
or tldr;
<Animal Farm>engine braking good, real brakes better</Animal Farm>
I'm not a fan of drivers relying on engine braking for the primary stability of the car (Actually, I'm not a fan of drivers who rely on engine braking at all), on the basis that engine braking gives you much less control of the rate of deceleration than using the brakes - you've only got perhaps 3-4 (if you're lucky) very specific rates of braking whilst you have infinite control on the brakes. And if the reason you're putting weight onto the front tyres is for stability, then surely having precise control over that weight transfer can only be a good thing. But, again, I digress.
My current diesel has a reasonable amount of engine braking. It's nowhere near the levels you'll get from a large displacement, normally aspirated petrol engine, but it's not exactly freewheeling like a bicycle. So you just have to get used to the idea that you have to use the brakes every time rather than relying on engine braking to hopefully get you down to the speed you want.
But to be honest, if you're pressing on, you're more likely going to want to be using the brakes anyway. If you're using the rules of thirds (albeit unequal ones), then you accelerate for a third, maintain the sane speed for a third and then decelerate for a third. That last third doesn't have to be engine braking or foundation brakes.
or tldr;
<Animal Farm>engine braking good, real brakes better</Animal Farm>
Have you thought through the pros and cons of slowing into the bend, as you apparently do, rather than completing the reduction in speed before entering the bend, and maintaining or increasing speed in the bend? Particularly on the public road, where most of the time the safe speed is limited by vision, not cornering force?
Incidentally, you cannot fully turn off the electronic chassis aids in a 123d.
Another question. Why are you going for the diesel? 12 years ago I encouraged my son to choose a 123d at a time when a 6 cylinder 130i was a similar price. It may have been a mistake - good open road performance but rather gruff at low speeds.
Incidentally, you cannot fully turn off the electronic chassis aids in a 123d.
Another question. Why are you going for the diesel? 12 years ago I encouraged my son to choose a 123d at a time when a 6 cylinder 130i was a similar price. It may have been a mistake - good open road performance but rather gruff at low speeds.
Edited by waremark on Saturday 20th March 19:52
2 main differences, (a) if the back steps out just flooring it won’t correct it and (b) it’s a bit silly to get carried away with hard acceleration away from corners without knowing what to do if (and when) the rear starts to lose grip. Book a car control training day to avoid any nasty surprises. It’s not that hard.
On the other hand just drive it slowly everywhere and you’ll be fine.
On the other hand just drive it slowly everywhere and you’ll be fine.
That’s a baffling original post...
Having driven large numbers of different FWD, RWD and AWD vehicles I can’t say that it would be among the first things I would think about, and sometimes might drive something like a hire car for a week without knowing (or particularly caring) which configuration it might have. Petrol/diesel is much more important - but only so you don’t put the wrong fuel in. Learning the ‘driving characteristics’ for many of us has to often be in somewhere like the chaos of a foreign airport car hire pick up.
The last vehicle I seriously had to worry about ‘power bands’ on was a Kawasaki two stroke triple, many years ago...
If the OP really never de-clutches seemingly because his current car is FWD, I would hate to be the person who buys it.
Serious advice for the OP would be to try out a range of cars (not just small expensive and boring German offerings) and buy something that feels nice to drive. Then enrol on an advanced driving course and learn how to make good and safe progress irrespective of the vehicle you are driving.
Having driven large numbers of different FWD, RWD and AWD vehicles I can’t say that it would be among the first things I would think about, and sometimes might drive something like a hire car for a week without knowing (or particularly caring) which configuration it might have. Petrol/diesel is much more important - but only so you don’t put the wrong fuel in. Learning the ‘driving characteristics’ for many of us has to often be in somewhere like the chaos of a foreign airport car hire pick up.
The last vehicle I seriously had to worry about ‘power bands’ on was a Kawasaki two stroke triple, many years ago...
If the OP really never de-clutches seemingly because his current car is FWD, I would hate to be the person who buys it.
Serious advice for the OP would be to try out a range of cars (not just small expensive and boring German offerings) and buy something that feels nice to drive. Then enrol on an advanced driving course and learn how to make good and safe progress irrespective of the vehicle you are driving.
Nearlyretired said:
You talk a load of rubbish and nonsense!
Engine braking to stabilise a car!??? You already drive like a doughnut!
You sound like an appalling driver,or are you a troll?
He does sound like a bit of a donut but moving weight over the front wheels to help turn in is a useful trick and nothing unusualEngine braking to stabilise a car!??? You already drive like a doughnut!
You sound like an appalling driver,or are you a troll?
Edited by Nearlyretired on Monday 26th July 13:07
You never ever use engine compression to transfer weight over the wheels on a fwd car.
It won't work successfully.
You are relying on an unknown variable acting on a road surface and cannot be accuratly controlled.
I've never heard of this,and never attempted it
This sounds like a terrible practise.
If you want to generate more front end grip the accepted practice performed by amateur and professional racing drivers is left foot braking and trail braking.
I have done this for many years,it works well,but takes lots of practice.
It's very affective on loose road surfaces and snow.
To turn in lift off the throttle slow down and hope is just ridiculous and wrong.
Who does this?
It won't work successfully.
You are relying on an unknown variable acting on a road surface and cannot be accuratly controlled.
I've never heard of this,and never attempted it
This sounds like a terrible practise.
If you want to generate more front end grip the accepted practice performed by amateur and professional racing drivers is left foot braking and trail braking.
I have done this for many years,it works well,but takes lots of practice.
It's very affective on loose road surfaces and snow.
To turn in lift off the throttle slow down and hope is just ridiculous and wrong.
Who does this?
Nearlyretired said:
You never ever use engine compression to transfer weight over the wheels on a fwd car.
It won't work successfully.
You are relying on an unknown variable acting on a road surface and cannot be accuratly controlled.
I've never heard of this,and never attempted it
This sounds like a terrible practise.
If you want to generate more front end grip the accepted practice performed by amateur and professional racing drivers is left foot braking and trail braking.
I have done this for many years,it works well,but takes lots of practice.
It's very affective on loose road surfaces and snow.
To turn in lift off the throttle slow down and hope is just ridiculous and wrong.
Who does this?
I’ve lfb for all my life in various road cars for that reason. I never suggested using engine braking. I was suggesting that he was getting confused maybe about how to effect weight transfer over the front in this instance. It won't work successfully.
You are relying on an unknown variable acting on a road surface and cannot be accuratly controlled.
I've never heard of this,and never attempted it
This sounds like a terrible practise.
If you want to generate more front end grip the accepted practice performed by amateur and professional racing drivers is left foot braking and trail braking.
I have done this for many years,it works well,but takes lots of practice.
It's very affective on loose road surfaces and snow.
To turn in lift off the throttle slow down and hope is just ridiculous and wrong.
Who does this?
Generally i find lfb more effective at preventing understeer on the way out as opposed to on the way in but then I don’t get that much practise these days
waremark said:
Incidentally, you cannot fully turn off the electronic chassis aids in a 123d.
Unless the 123d is different from every other BMW of that era you can turn the electronics entirely off. Ne push disables the traction control but not the stability. A second longer one switches it all off.Edited by waremark on Saturday 20th March 19:52
JWH said:
Unless the 123d is different from every other BMW of that era you can turn the electronics entirely off. Ne push disables the traction control but not the stability. A second longer one switches it all off.
My comment was based on a 2008 123d Coupe in which it was not possible to turn off the stability control. I had an E92 M3 bought the same time which worked as you describe.Its not the 70s and 80s of light RWD cars like early 3/5 series where applying even slightly too much throttle out of damp roundabout could easily end in the armco.
Yes i think you are overthinking things, however as a regular user of the black country route it's a skating rink, whatever you drive if you use similar roads invest in the best tyres you can.
Yes i think you are overthinking things, however as a regular user of the black country route it's a skating rink, whatever you drive if you use similar roads invest in the best tyres you can.
waremark said:
JWH said:
Unless the 123d is different from every other BMW of that era you can turn the electronics entirely off. Ne push disables the traction control but not the stability. A second longer one switches it all off.
My comment was based on a 2008 123d Coupe in which it was not possible to turn off the stability control. I had an E92 M3 bought the same time which worked as you describe.As for a comparison between the two, there is an amusing thread here
Somewhatfoolish said:
Can turn it off fully in my 2006 130i, I'm not saying you're wrong but it does surprise me a 123d would be different.
As for a comparison between the two, there is an amusing thread here
Read the first page with interest. You have to rev a naturally aspirated petrol engine hard to keep up with a diesel at much lower revs. The 2008 123d Coupe was my son's - bought new, and at the time about the same price as the 130i version. The power of over 200 bhp from a 2 litre diesel was a benchmark at the time - and maybe still. The downside was the gruff engine note. I recently bought a new diesel car, in this case a 6 cylinder which avoids the gruff engine note, and produces max torque from 1,500 rpm to 2,500 rpm. As for a comparison between the two, there is an amusing thread here
waremark said:
Somewhatfoolish said:
Can turn it off fully in my 2006 130i, I'm not saying you're wrong but it does surprise me a 123d would be different.
As for a comparison between the two, there is an amusing thread here
Read the first page with interest. You have to rev a naturally aspirated petrol engine hard to keep up with a diesel at much lower revs. The 2008 123d Coupe was my son's - bought new, and at the time about the same price as the 130i version. The power of over 200 bhp from a 2 litre diesel was a benchmark at the time - and maybe still. The downside was the gruff engine note. I recently bought a new diesel car, in this case a 6 cylinder which avoids the gruff engine note, and produces max torque from 1,500 rpm to 2,500 rpm. As for a comparison between the two, there is an amusing thread here
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