Dangerous junction designs
Discussion
I'd hope this would warrant its own thread rather than being bunged in with the other youtube links, as it's a rather high quality look at some issues with junction design that I'm sure would be of interest to some.
https://youtu.be/SYeeTvitvFU
Also to note are those in the video (First being at 15 seconds) blazing through the stop sign.
A possible solution that isn't mentioned in the video, and should be rather more compatible with the local conservation issues - If a bit counterintuative, would be to plant shrubbery concealing the junctions, tightening the approach for crossing traffic and stripping them of the view - forcing them to slow before the junction.
https://youtu.be/SYeeTvitvFU
Also to note are those in the video (First being at 15 seconds) blazing through the stop sign.
A possible solution that isn't mentioned in the video, and should be rather more compatible with the local conservation issues - If a bit counterintuative, would be to plant shrubbery concealing the junctions, tightening the approach for crossing traffic and stripping them of the view - forcing them to slow before the junction.
I know this junction very well as I live in the area.
Even watching the short video, we all can see cyclists and cars ignoring the road markings and signs
You can see the junction from a long way back, I have even been overtaken about 3/4 car lengths back from the stop lines (I was on a bike at the time)
Many of the "mamils" that use this road ignore the signs, don't signal, and just plow on....very much like the situation shown....I agree that the cyclist should have some sense of self preservation on approaching the junction, but they like the car drivers are human and make mistakes or are arrogant enough to think they are "in the right" and "everyone else" should obey the rules of the road that don't apply to them.
If a large vehicle like an HGV approached the junction, a hedge would be low enough for it to look over the top
Trees planted from say 50m from the junction in all directions in a way to "block" the view would take years to grow, and more than likely be trashed by the ponies, so buying established trees to chuck into the ground would be costly, and the local "nimbies" object to it
Putting lights on it would be costly as getting an electric supply there again would be costly, and upset the locals digging up the forest.
I suspect mega rumble strips across the whole width of the road/ramps would be cheapest option.
Education/punishment may only be the way the message gets out.....have a man sat there with a camcorder in civies, with a radio, to his mates in a marked police car, that can record the offence, call his mate to tell him to stop said vehicle, issue FPN on the spot, several times a month could get the word out? Or the camera "enforcement vans" parked some way away with their mega range catching them?
It's mostly the "locals" that speed in the forest, and hit all the wild animals roaming there, not the tourists (who just stop in daft places blocking the roads to take photo's or more irritatingly feed and try to pet them) The road is a cut through to get from Hythe to Lyndhurst, very quiet on the whole, a devil at night in the rain, on "Rat runs" people don't hang about, get tunnel vision, and crash.......
The cross road junction at Bartley Post office is another junction where I would suggest 95% of vehicles do not stop as required. Is it because we are always in a hurry?
Even watching the short video, we all can see cyclists and cars ignoring the road markings and signs
You can see the junction from a long way back, I have even been overtaken about 3/4 car lengths back from the stop lines (I was on a bike at the time)
Many of the "mamils" that use this road ignore the signs, don't signal, and just plow on....very much like the situation shown....I agree that the cyclist should have some sense of self preservation on approaching the junction, but they like the car drivers are human and make mistakes or are arrogant enough to think they are "in the right" and "everyone else" should obey the rules of the road that don't apply to them.
If a large vehicle like an HGV approached the junction, a hedge would be low enough for it to look over the top
Trees planted from say 50m from the junction in all directions in a way to "block" the view would take years to grow, and more than likely be trashed by the ponies, so buying established trees to chuck into the ground would be costly, and the local "nimbies" object to it
Putting lights on it would be costly as getting an electric supply there again would be costly, and upset the locals digging up the forest.
I suspect mega rumble strips across the whole width of the road/ramps would be cheapest option.
Education/punishment may only be the way the message gets out.....have a man sat there with a camcorder in civies, with a radio, to his mates in a marked police car, that can record the offence, call his mate to tell him to stop said vehicle, issue FPN on the spot, several times a month could get the word out? Or the camera "enforcement vans" parked some way away with their mega range catching them?
It's mostly the "locals" that speed in the forest, and hit all the wild animals roaming there, not the tourists (who just stop in daft places blocking the roads to take photo's or more irritatingly feed and try to pet them) The road is a cut through to get from Hythe to Lyndhurst, very quiet on the whole, a devil at night in the rain, on "Rat runs" people don't hang about, get tunnel vision, and crash.......
The cross road junction at Bartley Post office is another junction where I would suggest 95% of vehicles do not stop as required. Is it because we are always in a hurry?
watchnut said:
I know this junction very well as I live in the area.
Many of the "mamils" that use this road ignore the signs, don't signal, and just plow on....very much like the situation shown....I agree that the cyclist should have some sense of self preservation on approaching the junction, but they like the car drivers are human and make mistakes or are arrogant enough to think they are "in the right" and "everyone else" should obey the rules of the road that don't apply to them.
What cyclist plowed through the stop sign ? Can you tell me the time stamp in that video cause I missed it. I only saw drivers ignoring the signs.Many of the "mamils" that use this road ignore the signs, don't signal, and just plow on....very much like the situation shown....I agree that the cyclist should have some sense of self preservation on approaching the junction, but they like the car drivers are human and make mistakes or are arrogant enough to think they are "in the right" and "everyone else" should obey the rules of the road that don't apply to them.
Your use of the word Mamil tells me you're an anti cyclist driver no ?
Mandat said:
Perhaps making it a 4 way stop junction would alleviate the particular issues at this location.
I watched that video a few days ago, pretty interesting.4-way stops are pretty rare in the UK as far as I am aware. Not that it would be hard to make it one but the drivers will probably ignore it anyway. At the start of the video, you can see the car literally plow by the stop sign. Point being, even if it is a 4-way stop in practice that won't help.
The best decision is, as he explains it, curve each road so they don't meet each other in a straight line. That will force drivers to slow down and look unless they want to end up in the field that is...
nojoeing said:
4-way stops are pretty rare in the UK as far as I am aware. Not that it would be hard to make it one but the drivers will probably ignore it anyway. At the start of the video, you can see the car literally plow by the stop sign. Point being, even if it is a 4-way stop in practice that won't help.
I think that it would help because it would address the underlying phenomenon that occurs at this junction, when cyclists continuously remain in the A pillar blind spot of approaching cars.Whilst cars not stopping at the stop line are at fault for any collision that occurs, that is of little consolation to the injured / killed cyclist.
By having a 4-way stop, there would be an additional requirement on the cyclist to slow down on the approach to the stop line, and this change in speed should help to remove them from the A pillar blind spot. This would mean that the car approaching the junction will see the cyclist and actually stop at the stop line.
At worst, even if the car still plows through the stop line, the cyclist would have by then stopped at their own stop line, thus avoiding a collision.
Brads67 said:
What cyclist plowed through the stop sign ? Can you tell me the time stamp in that video cause I missed it. I only saw drivers ignoring the signs.
Your use of the word Mamil tells me you're an anti cyclist driver no ?
Listen out gobby, "mamils" are a menace much of the time in the New Forest (and dare I say it elsewhere as well) Your use of the word Mamil tells me you're an anti cyclist driver no ?
For your info I also have a "road bike" and only last Friday rode that cross roads with my daughter (complete in "mamil" kit) However unlike many Mails this one actually obeys road signs/h/w code. I lost my job following an accident on my road bike a few years ago where a lady pulled out in front of me on a roundabout and i rode into the side of her car. So I know what it is like to be taken out by a car....first hand...and 20+ years later still suffering the physical as well as financial pain of that crash. I am not "anti cyclist" I get just as fed up with poor driving as well.
I didn't say any cyclist "just plowed" through the junction....maybe my English was not perfect, but not all stopped....and don't. I use the junction and see it happen many times....just like the cars don't either
many people chose not to "stop" at that junction because they have
ignored the signs
Looked....and think it's clear, so think ..."no point in slowing/stopping" and just drive on
Just as people on the main road
Don't look at what is coming from either side as "they have the right of way"
Do look but, because they have the right of way plough on regardless because of that right of "way"
It is stunning that that junction manages to have any accidents as it is so "open" yet the theory of the OP could be a contributing factor....probably what the police accident investigations into fatal accidents there have concluded in their summaries, and maybe even back up by the coroner, who listens to and acts on a coroners advice?
watchnut said:
Brads67 said:
What cyclist plowed through the stop sign ? Can you tell me the time stamp in that video cause I missed it. I only saw drivers ignoring the signs.
Your use of the word Mamil tells me you're an anti cyclist driver no ?
Listen out gobby, "mamils" are a menace much of the time in the New Forest (and dare I say it elsewhere as well) Your use of the word Mamil tells me you're an anti cyclist driver no ?
For your info I also have a "road bike" and only last Friday rode that cross roads with my daughter (complete in "mamil" kit) However unlike many Mails this one actually obeys road signs/h/w code. I lost my job following an accident on my road bike a few years ago where a lady pulled out in front of me on a roundabout and i rode into the side of her car. So I know what it is like to be taken out by a car....first hand...and 20+ years later still suffering the physical as well as financial pain of that crash. I am not "anti cyclist" I get just as fed up with poor driving as well.
I didn't say any cyclist "just plowed" through the junction....maybe my English was not perfect, but not all stopped....and don't. I use the junction and see it happen many times....just like the cars don't either
many people chose not to "stop" at that junction because they have
ignored the signs
Looked....and think it's clear, so think ..."no point in slowing/stopping" and just drive on
Just as people on the main road
Don't look at what is coming from either side as "they have the right of way"
Do look but, because they have the right of way plough on regardless because of that right of "way"
It is stunning that that junction manages to have any accidents as it is so "open" yet the theory of the OP could be a contributing factor....probably what the police accident investigations into fatal accidents there have concluded in their summaries, and maybe even back up by the coroner, who listens to and acts on a coroners advice?
Fundamentally the problem is people ignoring stop signs. Painting in a mini-roundabout is likely to have exactly the same issues. Staggering the crossroad is a simple, effective solution.
Solocle said:
Although at this junction, there's no point whatsoever in a cyclist stopping at the STOP if they see it to be clear, from a safety standpoint. Because, unlike drivers, they don't have an A pillar blind spot.
The point that you re missing is that the cyclists get lost in the driver's A pillar blind spots due to the particular trigonometry and relative speeds of both vehicles. The cyclist changing speed, i.e. slowing / stopping at a stop line can remove themselves from the said blind spot and help to avoid a collision.
Realigning the crossroads would be most successful in achieving the goal, although it seems to be unfeasible due to conservation constraints.
Mandat said:
The point that you re missing is that the cyclists get lost in the driver's A pillar blind spots due to the particular trigonometry and relative speeds of both vehicles.
The cyclist changing speed, i.e. slowing / stopping at a stop line can remove themselves from the said blind spot and help to avoid a collision.
Realigning the crossroads would be most successful in achieving the goal, although it seems to be unfeasible due to conservation constraints.
Yes, but the road where they're in danger is the road with priority. So if priorities were changed, then it might make a difference. But quite possibly primarily a difference in who is held at fault.The cyclist changing speed, i.e. slowing / stopping at a stop line can remove themselves from the said blind spot and help to avoid a collision.
Realigning the crossroads would be most successful in achieving the goal, although it seems to be unfeasible due to conservation constraints.
The more minor route, the one with the stop signs, doesn't suffer from that issue, and is a national cycle route. Rolling those stop signs on a bike is unlikely to be any safety issue whatsoever.
Those familiar with driving in North America will not see this sort of junction as unusual. Nonetheless it is fair to assess the issue; modifying the layout would be expensive I expect. Is it proportionate?
As a cyclist and keen (advanced if you like) driver, I would say that the cyclist should be able to see the junction, and any approaching vehicle, and modify speed accordingly.
As a cyclist and keen (advanced if you like) driver, I would say that the cyclist should be able to see the junction, and any approaching vehicle, and modify speed accordingly.
DocSteve said:
Those familiar with driving in North America will not see this sort of junction as unusual. Nonetheless it is fair to assess the issue; modifying the layout would be expensive I expect. Is it proportionate?
As a cyclist and keen (advanced if you like) driver, I would say that the cyclist should be able to see the junction, and any approaching vehicle, and modify speed accordingly.
In this layout approaching vehicles are always behind the cyclist with priority, so not visible.As a cyclist and keen (advanced if you like) driver, I would say that the cyclist should be able to see the junction, and any approaching vehicle, and modify speed accordingly.
£100,000 is a bargain to avoid a steady stream of KSIs.
Solocle said:
DocSteve said:
Those familiar with driving in North America will not see this sort of junction as unusual. Nonetheless it is fair to assess the issue; modifying the layout would be expensive I expect. Is it proportionate?
As a cyclist and keen (advanced if you like) driver, I would say that the cyclist should be able to see the junction, and any approaching vehicle, and modify speed accordingly.
In this layout approaching vehicles are always behind the cyclist with priority, so not visible.As a cyclist and keen (advanced if you like) driver, I would say that the cyclist should be able to see the junction, and any approaching vehicle, and modify speed accordingly.
£100,000 is a bargain to avoid a steady stream of KSIs.
DocSteve said:
It looks like it is pretty open so a cyclist should be able to see both the junction and any approaching vehicles?
This is covered in the video, cars arrive at the junction at an angle behind the cyclist field of view. All cyclist sees is an empty junction where they have right of way, and are hit by car where their presence is obscured by A pillar and driver ignores road signs. Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff