Roundabout exits - third from left lane

[Blockbuster]

I was at this roundabout on a retail park, indicating right to take the third exit and this Citroen driver drew up alongside me in the left lane which he stayed in to take the same exit as me, causing me to have to hit the brakes (and horn).

We were going from the 12 o'clock exit to about the 8 o'clock exit (5 exits in total at approx 12, 3, 5, 8 and 10 o'clock).

It's possibly a poorly designed roundabout anyway as the lanes aren't marked, but I'm convinced that both me and the Nissan in front of me were in the correct lane, and the Citroen should only be using the left lane for either of the first two exits. Does anyone disagree?

Dashcam footage https://vimeo.com/378288980

[eybic]

In my mind the Citroen driver is in the wrong and probably didn't want to wait behind you.

[akirk]

If you are posting this in the Advanced Driver section, then we can assume you want to understand the 'advanced driver' approach - which is simple, make no assumptions about other drivers / vehicles on a roundabout...

It is not illegal to enter a roundabout from any lane / exit at any junction - it might not be advisable, but not illegal.
It is also legal to circle a roundabout as many times as you like - all day if you wish / don't get dizzy

The highway code is very clear that there are appropriate lanes and you / others should choose appropriately and use the 'correct' lanes Rule 186 - so you are correct there...

however, it does not make this mandatory (HC uses the word 'must' for mandatory)
makes clear in several rules:
Rule 184 - 'be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you.'
Rule 185 - 'watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all'
Rule 187 - 'In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to... ...traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit / traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly'

overall, there is clarity that while you should be choosing the lane appropriately - there is a strong emphasis on all users of the roundabout that they hold responsibility for being aware of what others are doing - and there is a clarity / expectation in the HC that other road users may be positioned incorrectly / straddling lanes / crossing in front of you / nor signalling correctly / etc.

so, yes they should choose the 'correct lane' but it is not illegal for them to exit from a different lane, and you also hold responsibility for being aware of what they are doing and allowing for it.

so, you shouldn't be 'hitting' the brakes - you should be constantly aware of what they are doing and adjusting for it - surely, their not turning off at the previous junction was a good clue?
watching the video - there is no left / right lane - there is one lane onto the roundabout
why were you exiting from the inside lane - you should have been over in the outside lane / left roundabout lane after the first or at latest, second exit - i.e. where the hatching started...

don't think the citroen was doing much wrong, they appeared to simply using the space that was there - adjust your speed to pull in behind them as you eventually did (but maybe more progressively) and no issue...

[meatballs]

Need to show the roundabout sign to get a better understanding.

But regardless of if they have chosen the correct lane you are trying to change lane across someone else and exit in one go?

Edited by meatballs on Monday 9th December 18:25

Edited by meatballs on Monday 9th December 18:26

[waremark]

Why would you use the horn?

[Blockbuster]

Thanks for the replies. Posting this in the Advanced Driving section was probably incorrect, as I do not have any advanced driving qualification. I do have 24 years and 15 to 20k miles a year worth of experience but am not an advanced driver.

waremark said:

Why would you use the horn?

Because I am not an advanced driver. I admit that it was probably used to show anger more than anything else.

meatballs said:

Need to show the roundabout sign to get a better understanding.

But regardless of if they have chosen the correct lane you are trying to change lane across someone else and exit in one go?

There are no signs. The roundabout is completely within the retail park and has no signs at any of the roundabout entrances. Although they have faded badly so don't show up on the video, Google street view shows there are actually arrows where I entered the roundabout - left lane is straight on and left turn, right lane is straight on and right turn.

This other car by positioning himself alongside me gave me no oppurtunity to change lanes at any time. As he wasn't indicating, one could reasonably assume that he was going to take the second exit, and I would change lanes after that.

akirk said:

If you are posting this in the Advanced Driver section, then we can assume you want to understand the 'advanced driver' approach - which is simple, make no assumptions about other drivers / vehicles on a roundabout...

This seems to be good advice. Don't trust anyone else seems to be the way to use a roundabout.

akirk said:

so, you shouldn't be 'hitting' the brakes - you should be constantly aware of what they are doing and adjusting for it - surely, their not turning off at the previous junction was a good clue?

I didn't hit the brakes as such, maybe just tapped them lightly. You are right, I should have noticed. I was kind of watching the car in front, assuming that the Citroen was going to the second exit, given his lack of indicators and it took me a moment to realise he was still in my path. In the video there was only about 2 seconds between him passing the second exit, and me going for the third exit.

akirk said:

watching the video - there is no left / right lane - there is one lane onto the roundabout

The marking are worn to the point of being almost non existent, and the lighting conditions don't help, but there are are 2 distinct lanes shown on Google Maps and as mentioned above, left is left turn and straight on (exits 1 and 2) and right lane is also straight on and right (a bit ambiguous what the straight on here means to be honest, but I would interpret the right turn would be exits 3 and 4)

akirk said:

why were you exiting from the inside lane - you should have been over in the outside lane / left roundabout lane after the first or at latest, second exit - i.e. where the hatching started...

Yes, possibly but this Citroen driver blocked me from doing this.

eybic said:

In my mind the Citroen driver is in the wrong and probably didn't want to wait behind you.

Thanks for agreeing. It seems that a lot of people don't

In general, I think its just a poorly signed and laid out roundabout and whilst I should have expected the unexpected, the Citroen driver at the very least should have indicated his intentions.

[meatballs]

Blockbuster said:

meatballs said:

Need to show the roundabout sign to get a better understanding.

But regardless of if they have chosen the correct lane you are trying to change lane across someone else and exit in one go?

This other car by positioning himself alongside me gave me no oppurtunity to change lanes at any time. As he wasn't indicating, one could reasonably assume that he was going to take the second exit, and I would change lanes after that.

Ignoring the correct initial lane choice (which you have to assume no-one can make unless they have prior experience of the roundabout) - they entered ahead of you, where you could see them.

You then moved alongside losing sight of them and maybe putting yourself in their blind spot and lose any safety margin if they cut across into your lane.

I suspect they did know the roundabout, and knew that the car infront of you may be going to take that exit so held their position to let them exit. You could consider the car Infront is cutting infront of them with little notice (if I was the car Infront i would have either had a dab of speed on to get further Infront or gone round the roundabout again if I was in that position).

Not trying to have a go, but a little more defensive spacing and you could all have joined and exited smoothly without any aggro.

[PhilAsia]

Blockbuster said:

I was at this roundabout on a retail park, indicating right to take the third exit and this Citroen driver drew up alongside me in the left lane which he stayed in to take the same exit as me, causing me to have to hit the brakes (and horn).

We were going from the 12 o'clock exit to about the 8 o'clock exit (5 exits in total at approx 12, 3, 5, 8 and 10 o'clock).

It's possibly a poorly designed roundabout anyway as the lanes aren't marked, but I'm convinced that both me and the Nissan in front of me were in the correct lane, and the Citroen should only be using the left lane for either of the first two exits. Does anyone disagree?

Dashcam footage https://vimeo.com/378288980

I would agree that the driving was suspect and did nit follow Highway Code guidelines. However, why was it suspect?

Was it that they wanted to get ahead, changed their route at the last second, or an honest mistake?

You can fix bayonets or remember the war is over and just get on with your drive. After all, will it matte in ten minutes time?

[Graveworm]

PhilAsia said:

You can fix bayonets or remember the war is over and just get on with your drive. After all, will it matte in ten minutes time?

Should flash up, in every car whenever the grip on the wheel tightens. Shamelessly stolen to pass off as my own,

[Pica-Pica]

A non-issue, happens all the time. Observation, then ease off to let them in.
Driving is not about right or wrong, as much as avoiding collisions or altercations. Easily avoidable by OP. No need for horn, and probably not brakes either.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Mansfield is exit 3 on this roundabout. The signage clearly shows that left lane is good for that. Trouble is people in the right lane (who don't look at signs!) invariably don't expect anybody to do that & is therefore a dangerous manoeuvre



https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0602253,-1.26588...

[akirk]

I think this is a good example of the philosophy of Advanced Driving - think about how you can change your driving to influence / adapt / compensate for other drivers... We seem to now have a society where people stand on their rights as the first approach, and there is a danger of that happening here (though I don't think the OP is consciously doing that!) - however, the concept of rights doesn't really appear in the Highway Code / our traffic laws - they assume a much more tolerant approach to driving - when all drivers are tolerant it balances out...

perhaps the art of Advanced Driving is tolerance - but by thinking ahead, winning through subtlety?!

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

akirk said:

I think this is a good example of the philosophy of Advanced Driving - think about how you can change your driving to influence / adapt / compensate for other drivers... We seem to now have a society where people stand on their rights as the first approach, and there is a danger of that happening here (though I don't think the OP is consciously doing that!) - however, the concept of rights doesn't really appear in the Highway Code / our traffic laws - they assume a much more tolerant approach to driving - when all drivers are tolerant it balances out...

perhaps the art of Advanced Driving is tolerance - but by thinking ahead, winning through subtlety?!

Just assume everybody else is a twonk and drive accordingly

[akirk]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

akirk said:

I think this is a good example of the philosophy of Advanced Driving - think about how you can change your driving to influence / adapt / compensate for other drivers... We seem to now have a society where people stand on their rights as the first approach, and there is a danger of that happening here (though I don't think the OP is consciously doing that!) - however, the concept of rights doesn't really appear in the Highway Code / our traffic laws - they assume a much more tolerant approach to driving - when all drivers are tolerant it balances out...

perhaps the art of Advanced Driving is tolerance - but by thinking ahead, winning through subtlety?!

Just assume everybody else is a twonk and drive accordingly

That is what is so annoying about PH - you post something you think is erudite and polished, and someone comes along and sums it up in 10 words so much more accurately

[recordman]

Probably Spanish. This is how learners are taught to negotiate roundabouts in Spain.

[Pica-Pica]

akirk said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

akirk said:

I think this is a good example of the philosophy of Advanced Driving - think about how you can change your driving to influence / adapt / compensate for other drivers... We seem to now have a society where people stand on their rights as the first approach, and there is a danger of that happening here (though I don't think the OP is consciously doing that!) - however, the concept of rights doesn't really appear in the Highway Code / our traffic laws - they assume a much more tolerant approach to driving - when all drivers are tolerant it balances out...

perhaps the art of Advanced Driving is tolerance - but by thinking ahead, winning through subtlety?!

Just assume everybody else is a twonk and drive accordingly

That is what is so annoying about PH - you post something you think is erudite and polished, and someone comes along and sums it up in 10 words so much more accurately

Observe - adapt
Is that better?

[Pica-Pica]

recordman said:

Probably Spanish. This is how learners are taught to negotiate roundabouts in Spain.

..and cyclists, and horse-riders in UK.

[Mandalore]

Personal view in the absence of any dedicated/over riding lane/marking is to use the RH lane if you are going straight over or more than 180deg around a RAB.

An exception would be a dual carriage way split by a roundabout, where the continuation is more than 180deg, in which case I would enter and exit via the left lane.

It’s pretty much what most people do, if they require an incident free journey.

[Johnnytheboy]

Is the next/last right turning a more significant one, e.g. the main in/out road?

[PhilAsia]

Johnnytheboy said:

Is the next/last right turning a more significant one, e.g. the main in/out road?

It certainly is in this forum. I believe it may be the entrance to Motoring Nirvana!