Spin at Copse, what did I do wrong?

[Shaoxter]

https://youtu.be/vwIMumTiM4E
Spun my GT3 at Copse yesterday (near the end of the video), luckily not too much damage apart from a bruised ego, but will need a wheel refurb and a lot of time getting all the gravel out!

I'm interested to know what I did wrong or could have done differently:
- Carried too much speed into the corner?
- Overcorrected?
- Wrong line? I didn't want to turn into the apex as there might have been a car on the inside and there was loads of slippery discarded rubber off line from the drifters earlier in the day (this is my official excuse!)

This was the first time I've taken the GT3 on track, I did a session earlier in the day which went well and at no point previously did the car fell like it was stepping out so this came as quite a surprise. My previous 911s all had PSM so I will be more careful going forward now that I know what could happen without that safety net!

[Dave Hedgehog]

5:20 for those interested

personally i would not have been going flat out into a corner with so much liquid absorbing dust on the ground, as here maybe oil and a good chance some dust will be on the hot tyres

Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Monday 7th October 16:14

[MrOrange]

Shaoxter said:

This was the first time I've taken the GT3 on track.

You didn't do much wrong, mostly your driving seemed really rather sensible but looks driver error to me. The cement dust rarely makes any different unless you're on the limit which judging by the rest of the video you were not.

Assuming the track wasn't greasy then it looks like you may have rushed the corner bit (still on the brakes at turn-in?), slightly wide, off the throttle, too much steering input and it rotated before you were back on the gas (ie. the weight still over the front). A bit of training wouldn't go amiss I reckon and you'll be a lot more confident, smoother and quicker.

Slow in, fast out. And always be ready to catch a slide. My 2p.

Ps: The old 3 series next to you looks like it might be quicker in the corner and later on the brakes than you might expect.

[trackdemon]

Others have pretty much pointed out, and I agree: spin was invoked by turning in too abruptly, the unloaded rear started to come round and a bit of overcorrection combined with staying off the gas meant it bit and fired the other way. Small mistake in the grand scheme, and you got off lightly, so a good lesson learned. Probably didn't help being off line due to the other car so unless they get out your way quickly and back off to facilitate the pass, it's probably worth holding off next time - especially on a corner as quick as Copse. GT3's are fantastic on track, don't let that put you off; they're fantastically driftable (ok, maybe not in Copse) too, so there's balance to be found - staying on the throttle helps keep them settled.

[Reg Local]

OP, when you downchanged immediately before spinning, it looks like you didn’t raise the revs enough, which will have resulted in a momentary underspeed at the rear axle (akin to a light dab on the handbrake just when you don’t want it).

Watch the rev-counter - it goes up when you blip the throttle, then drops slightly, then goes back up again as the clutch is fully released. That second raise of the revs is caused by the momentum of the car bringing the revs back up when the clutch is released, and will also result in a slowing of the rear axle.

Slowing the rear axle when you’re committed on corner entry will unbalance the rear. 911s respond well to a traditional “slow it in a straight line & get on the gas early” technique, which keeps the rear balanced right through the corner.

Out of interest, did you leave the PSM switched on?

[trackdemon]

Reg Local said:

OP, when you downchanged immediately before spinning, it looks like you didn’t raise the revs enough, which will have resulted in a momentary underspeed at the rear axle (akin to a light dab on the handbrake just when you don’t want it).

Watch the rev-counter - it goes up when you blip the throttle, then drops slightly, then goes back up again as the clutch is fully released. That second raise of the revs is caused by the momentum of the car bringing the revs back up when the clutch is released, and will also result in a slowing of the rear axle.

Slowing the rear axle when you’re committed on corner entry will unbalance the rear. 911s respond well to a traditional “slow it in a straight line & get on the gas early” technique, which keeps the rear balanced right through the corner.

Out of interest, did you leave the PSM switched on?

Good spot on the rev match, it was slightly off - but I'm still convinced it was the abrupt, offline turn in that invoked the slide. At the risk of causing PH internet uproar I'm not so sure about the slow it straight then gas it advice - especially on a modern 911. That's a sure fire way to induce understeer in the lightly loaded front end; I always trail my brakes into the a corner to get the front end to turn, as the front bites you get a little rotation from the rear allowing you to get back on the throttle, balancing the car nicely. Obviously there's a degree of nuance in all of this, and it's key to be smooth (or you induce a spin), but if you drive up to a corner, lift off the brakes and turn in, the front is not going to want to turn - IYSWIM?

[anonymous-user]

Lifting off and staying off, all the weight transferred to the front of the car resulting the in rear going very light.

Basically you went in too hot and then didn't manage the weight transfer correctly. Easy mistake to make. With a bit of throttle it could have been avoided or been a fair bit worse, it's a fine balance.

Likely you were concentrating too much on getting past the BMW rather than entering the corner on the right line and at the correct speed which resulted in too much slowing down and weight shift.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 7th October 18:17

[Reg Local]

trackdemon said:

Good spot on the rev match, it was slightly off - but I'm still convinced it was the abrupt, offline turn in that invoked the slide. At the risk of causing PH internet uproar I'm not so sure about the slow it straight then gas it advice - especially on a modern 911. That's a sure fire way to induce understeer in the lightly loaded front end; I always trail my brakes into the a corner to get the front end to turn, as the front bites you get a little rotation from the rear allowing you to get back on the throttle, balancing the car nicely. Obviously there's a degree of nuance in all of this, and it's key to be smooth (or you induce a spin), but if you drive up to a corner, lift off the brakes and turn in, the front is not going to want to turn - IYSWIM?

The rev mis-match wasn’t the only cause, but combine the slight underspeed on the rear axle with the less-than-perfect surface & a slightly (it didn’t look too bad to me) harsh turn-in & a spin was the result. I suspect that stability was switched off too as I would have expected the systems to have intervened & kept the car on track. Remove any one of these variables & I don’t think the car would have rotated.

The “gas on turn-in” technique works well in 911s (and in my view all cars, but especially rear-engined Porsches) because it reduces weight transfer from three movements in the corner (forward on the brakes, left/right in opposition to the steering and then backwards with acceleration) to one single movement (diagonally rearward towards the loaded rear tyre).

Reducing the number of weight transfer movements in a corner really helps to keep the rear of the car settled (as long as you keep the gas on all the way round the corner), especially when the engine is behind the rear axle, like a conker on a piece of string.

It is counter-intuitive, I know, but I’ve taught the technique to many people and had universally positive feedback. The car just feels “right” in the corner.

It probably wouldn’t give you the fastest lap time, or win any races, but on the road, and dare I say it, on a track day, that isn’t what you’re looking to achieve.

[LeoSayer]

Unless I'm mistaken I can hear the tyres complaining at the moment you brings the revs up for the downchange. This coincides with a tiny amount of steering angle.

What did you do wrong? In my opinion:

1. Your overtake was late and on the brakes - maybe a bit too ambitious for a track day
2. You went through a long line of cement dust. Maybe there was some oil left over too.
3. Assuming my hearing is correct, as stated above, you turned into the corner even after the car has already given you a hint it was going to slide
4. I can't see what you did with your feet, but back getting on the throttle may have arrested the slide

Great to hear a GT3 revving out.

[HustleRussell]

You left everything too late, panicked and ended up downshifting, braking and turning in all at the same time. You need to downshift and turn in earlier and brake less. You should be on the power and front limited to the track out point.

[Shaoxter]

Thanks for all the feedback, I think I did concentrate a bit too much on overtaking the BMW rather than spotting the braking point!

Had great fun though, nice to be in a manual car after driving PDKs, SMGs etc for years. Still have a bit of learning to do and will be mindful of the lack of stability control next time...

[Olivera]

I would say you did nothing significantly wrong other than over-correcting and therefore lacking a bit of car control.

There is a tendency on PH (and the internet in general) to over-analyze the causes before a spin to the N-th degree.

If your car control is up to it, and your really pushing, then slight instances of oversteer should be occuring regularly, but you should have the car control to simply collect them up without incident.

I would say look at doing some kind of car control day, or learn through lots of experience

[HustleRussell]

Olivera said:

I would say you did nothing significantly wrong other than over-correcting and therefore lacking a bit of car control.

There is a tendency on PH (and the internet in general) to over-analyze the causes before a spin to the N-th degree.

If your car control is up to it, and your really pushing, then slight instances of oversteer should be occuring regularly, but you should have the car control to simply collect them up without incident.

Have to disagree- the OP wants to know what caused the spin, and I think it was caused by a few fairly obvious factors.

To suggest that the OP should simply repeat those same mistakes until his car control is ‘up to it’ is actually a bit careless. Make the same mistake at a different circuit or in slightly different circumstances and the OP could end up with a lot more than a bit of gravel rash.

The downshift was too late, the turn-in was too late and occurred on top of the downshift, and that unloaded the rear and put the OP even further from the correct line than he was on the other laps. Instead of recognising all of this, straightening the car up, and recovering in the runoff area, the OP maintained steering angle and opened the throttle as if nothing was up.

I’m no pro but with regard to the way the OP negotiated Copse on that lap, I am struggling to find something which was right about it.

[trackdemon]

Reg Local said:

trackdemon said:

Good spot on the rev match, it was slightly off - but I'm still convinced it was the abrupt, offline turn in that invoked the slide. At the risk of causing PH internet uproar I'm not so sure about the slow it straight then gas it advice - especially on a modern 911. That's a sure fire way to induce understeer in the lightly loaded front end; I always trail my brakes into the a corner to get the front end to turn, as the front bites you get a little rotation from the rear allowing you to get back on the throttle, balancing the car nicely. Obviously there's a degree of nuance in all of this, and it's key to be smooth (or you induce a spin), but if you drive up to a corner, lift off the brakes and turn in, the front is not going to want to turn - IYSWIM?

The “gas on turn-in” technique works well in 911s (and in my view all cars, but especially rear-engined Porsches) because it reduces weight transfer from three movements in the corner (forward on the brakes, left/right in opposition to the steering and then backwards with acceleration) to one single movement (diagonally rearward towards the loaded rear tyre).

Reducing the number of weight transfer movements in a corner really helps to keep the rear of the car settled (as long as you keep the gas on all the way round the corner), especially when the engine is behind the rear axle, like a conker on a piece of string.

It is counter-intuitive, I know, but I’ve taught the technique to many people and had universally positive feedback. The car just feels “right” in the corner.

It probably wouldn’t give you the fastest lap time, or win any races, but on the road, and dare I say it, on a track day, that isn’t what you’re looking to achieve.

I knew this would cause a difference of opinion I strongly disagree for reasons mentioned before - lifting the brakes and getting on throttle just as you turn in is a surefire way to induce understeer. Tbf this is probably a driving style thing - I have a huge preference for oversteer (bit of drifting/ice driving in my history), so trailing off the brakes as you turn in keeps the front of the car pinned, and usually induces a little yaw from the rear which helps you into the apex. Some folks hate oversteer, which is absolutely fine, it's just something I'm comfortable with so my driving style suits that. The majority of videos you'll see out there advise the same technique to be quick and get the car turned in nicely. Each to their own and all that (but I'd wager mine is faster )

[Reg Local]

Your technique is undoubtedly quicker - I conceded mine wasn’t the fastest in my earlier post.

I’d wager mine, however, results in a much more settled & balanced car from the start of the corner, and no understeer if done properly.

[trackdemon]

Reg Local said:

Your technique is undoubtedly quicker - I conceded mine wasn’t the fastest in my earlier post.

I’d wager mine, however, results in a much more settled & balanced car from the start of the corner, and no understeer if done properly.

Lets agree to disagree

[TheInternet]

HustleRussell said:

Have to disagree- the OP wants to know what caused the spin, and I think it was caused by a few fairly obvious factors.

-snip-

The downshift was too late, the turn-in was too late and occurred on top of the downshift, and that unloaded the rear and put the OP even further from the correct line than he was on the other laps. Instead of recognising all of this, straightening the car up, and recovering in the runoff area, the OP maintained steering angle and opened the throttle as if nothing was up.

Olivera is perhaps suggesting that whilst the preliminary factors you've identified were obviously enough to destabilise things, it was only the subsequent driver response that actually sent things into a spin. I would've thought some would've been able to accommodate the slide without leaving the track.

[Duncan Lang]

Dave Hedgehog said:

5:20 for those interested

personally i would not have been going flat out into a corner with so much liquid absorbing dust on the ground, as here maybe oil and a good chance some dust will be on the hot tyres

Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Monday 7th October 16:14

Yep, this was my first thought. Too hot over the dust/fluid. Back end slid, then gripped again (once the crud had cleared off the tyres) meaning there was nothing you could really do during the spin. The mistake was on the straight not avoiding or at least minimising time in the dust/liquid. Lesson learned and glad there was minimal damages and that you're OK.

EDIT to add: reading the other comments, I watched with the sound off (in the office) so there could be more to it than my original comment.

Edited by Duncan Lang on Wednesday 9th October 11:24

[RobM77]

I've just had a look.

As others have noted, your turn in was far too late, meaning a tighter line than ideal at the start (probably caused by making sure you were past that other car), which will also affect your speed profile; you fluffed the gearchange causing stress at the rear tyres; that degree of backing off at high speed is not desirable due to the degree of weight transfer it'll generate on turn in; and when the oversteer started you came off the power, causing more weight transfer. To solve all of this, look further ahead up the track, turn in earlier and for fast corners like this pick up a steady throttle earlier to balance the car. With Copse I use a Mark Hales tip: gradually work your turn-in back until your exit is correct. It's a blind bend, so it can be tricky to judge the line correctly. I also try to visualise the corner behind the barriers when I approach. Obviously also try to rev match gearchanges, but that goes without saying.

However I'm pretty sure that because of the nature of the oversteer and how it started that it was simply oil on the track and/or tyres (there was an awful lot of that white dusty stuff on the run down to Copse!).

[BertBert]

To add to what others have said...

Copse isn't really a trail breaking corner as it's high speed. I wouldn't expect undetsteer to be a problem.

Once you are offline you are always going to struggle. Then as others have said everything is wrong. Brakes, turn etc with the BMW in the way.

Copse does work work well with a good balance and you need to really pull it in to the apex which is even easier to use lots of after the resurface of the track.

If you are going to be the oversteer king in the GT3, you will need to be better at it if you don't mind me saying!

And as a final thought your rev matching is a bit hit and miss. The timing of the rev is very variable to my mind and mostly late in the process. It feels quite disjoint. Select lower gear, rev, engage clutch. Several times the revs drop and rise after the blip. My preferred timing is to blip as you are putting the gear lever through the 'gate' into the lower gear. That often speeds up the entry to the lower gear and gets a better rythm.

The track day looked mayhem! How many cars were out?

Bert