Who's at fault?
Discussion
First of all I'll apologise for my paint drawing.
I was wondering how this scenario might play out with my insurance. Just before the incident I was travelling along the minor road on my motorbike (in red), and stopped at the junction due to traffic. The car that was travelling south east (orange) had stopped, and gestured for me to exit. The car in blue had had its indicators on for some time down the road to exit left into the junction I was waiting to come out of.
As the car indicting left approached the junction I pulled out due to the lady signalling her intent to turn off the main road, she didn't turn left (she didn't realise indicator was on) and we collided.
How might this play out in regards to fault, as I am only third party this is quite the catch. I have 4 independent witnesses to confirm the ladies indication.
Thanks,
I would suggest you were at fault in this, surely you should wait until you're confident the road is safe. At the end of the day, an indicator is just a blinking bulb. Given the circumstance, I would suspect insurance going for 50/50 or your fault.
I fully understand why you pulled out, many others would too so I can sympathize with you. I live in an area where many drivers do not seem to contemplate what that little green blinking light on the dashboard means so I'm a little more cautious myself.
I fully understand why you pulled out, many others would too so I can sympathize with you. I live in an area where many drivers do not seem to contemplate what that little green blinking light on the dashboard means so I'm a little more cautious myself.
https://www.accesslegalsolicitors.co.uk/news/misle...
It doesn't look clear. How fast was the other vehicle travelling, as that may well be important?
It doesn't look clear. How fast was the other vehicle travelling, as that may well be important?
RazerSauber said:
I would suggest you were at fault in this, surely you should wait until you're confident the road is safe. At the end of the day, an indicator is just a blinking bulb. Given the circumstance, I would suspect insurance going for 50/50 or your fault.
I fully understand why you pulled out, many others would too so I can sympathize with you. I live in an area where many drivers do not seem to contemplate what that little green blinking light on the dashboard means so I'm a little more cautious myself.
Plus it's all in the name "indicator" rather than grantee. Also you shouldn't be taking directions from the Orange car. They had the road position and the priority. I know they were likely trying to be kind/helpful, but they were in the wrong to be waiting and waving you out, if they thought it was clear, they should have turned.I fully understand why you pulled out, many others would too so I can sympathize with you. I live in an area where many drivers do not seem to contemplate what that little green blinking light on the dashboard means so I'm a little more cautious myself.
As my driving instructor told me (30 years ago) in exactly this situation, "don't pull out until they make the turn, they might have the indicator on by accident".
Every day I pull out of a junction, to make a right turn, where 90% of the traffic coming from my right is turning left and I still abide by this rule.
It might irritate the person waiting behind me - and when I travel in the opposite direction 90% of people pull out while I'm indicating but haven't turned - but so what. I've seen several near misses there for exactly this reason.
Legally I'm not sure how blame would be aportioned but I'm think much of it would be heading your way.
Every day I pull out of a junction, to make a right turn, where 90% of the traffic coming from my right is turning left and I still abide by this rule.
It might irritate the person waiting behind me - and when I travel in the opposite direction 90% of people pull out while I'm indicating but haven't turned - but so what. I've seen several near misses there for exactly this reason.
Legally I'm not sure how blame would be aportioned but I'm think much of it would be heading your way.
jchesh said:
This doesn't answer your actual question, but for future reference (you've probably learnt this now anyway!), when I did a Bikesafe course the police officer said 'An indicator tells you one thing: their bulb is working,' which is pretty sound advice.
Hope you're OK!
Having lived next to a junction just off a roundabout this is sound advice. Hope you're OK!
jchesh said:
This doesn't answer your actual question, but for future reference (you've probably learnt this now anyway!), when I did a Bikesafe course the police officer said 'An indicator tells you one thing: their bulb is working,' which is pretty sound advice.
Hope you're OK!
Actually it only tells you that the bulb is working 50% of the time!Hope you're OK!
I would also add that if I didn't see the indicator being switched on, I would give it less weight than if I had observed the car without an indicator before it came on. But as others have said, I also normally wait for other "indicators" that they are in fact planning on making the turn.
You'll carry most of the blame on this.
Many (most?) accidents need two to play.
I did once get rear ended, sitting at a red light with the hand-brake on, so sometimes you can be blameless. Here, the blue car was giving a misleading signal which encouraged you to pull out. Unfortunately we have all seen drivers execute manoeuvres without a signal, or a completely incorrect one.
Did the blue car slow, did the driver look into the turning? I pretty much assume all signals are suspect unless I see something to back them up. Even then, in your position I'd have waited until she commenced the turn before pulling out. Locally use of indicators is poor, and really shocking on roundabouts, so I'm cautious as a result.
So, the blue car is partly at fault for improper use of the indicators, but as you were joining the main carriageway across a give-way I suspect you will be deemed more at fault.
Highway code Rule 170 (part of):
-do not assume, when waiting at a junction, that a vehicle coming from the right and signalling left will actually turn. - Wait and make sure
Many (most?) accidents need two to play.
I did once get rear ended, sitting at a red light with the hand-brake on, so sometimes you can be blameless. Here, the blue car was giving a misleading signal which encouraged you to pull out. Unfortunately we have all seen drivers execute manoeuvres without a signal, or a completely incorrect one.
Did the blue car slow, did the driver look into the turning? I pretty much assume all signals are suspect unless I see something to back them up. Even then, in your position I'd have waited until she commenced the turn before pulling out. Locally use of indicators is poor, and really shocking on roundabouts, so I'm cautious as a result.
So, the blue car is partly at fault for improper use of the indicators, but as you were joining the main carriageway across a give-way I suspect you will be deemed more at fault.
Highway code Rule 170 (part of):
-do not assume, when waiting at a junction, that a vehicle coming from the right and signalling left will actually turn. - Wait and make sure
Edited by Skellum on Monday 10th June 21:12
While you have no chance of getting the other vehicle to accept full liability, it is worth putting up a strong argument that the misleading use of the indicator was at least 50% to blame. If you can avoid a claim against your third party insurance you may be able to retain your no claims discount - it is a discount for no claims, not for no blame.
Incidentally, do you think you would have been any less likely to pull out if the 'orange' driver had not made a gesture encouraging you to do so. The Advanced Driving organisations advise against the almost universal practice of flashing to show you are yielding priority, and gestures to yield priority should be discouraged for the same reason. The person giving the flash or gesture may as in this case have ignored other hazards. The person receiving the flash or gesture can feel under pressure to take advantage promptly without taking full care and responsibility for their normal observations.
Incidentally, do you think you would have been any less likely to pull out if the 'orange' driver had not made a gesture encouraging you to do so. The Advanced Driving organisations advise against the almost universal practice of flashing to show you are yielding priority, and gestures to yield priority should be discouraged for the same reason. The person giving the flash or gesture may as in this case have ignored other hazards. The person receiving the flash or gesture can feel under pressure to take advantage promptly without taking full care and responsibility for their normal observations.
Sadly, I'd err on the side of it being your fault as you were exiting the side road.
Gesturing other vehicles out is bad practice imho - I'll leave you some space but it's your choice to use it - and if someone gestures me out again it's my choice to use that or not, and my responsibility to check the way is clear.
As others have said, indicators cannot be relied on and personally I'd only be exiting onto that road when the 'body language' of the car approaching you shows they are actually turning. My view would never emerge unless it's CLEAR.
Gesturing other vehicles out is bad practice imho - I'll leave you some space but it's your choice to use it - and if someone gestures me out again it's my choice to use that or not, and my responsibility to check the way is clear.
As others have said, indicators cannot be relied on and personally I'd only be exiting onto that road when the 'body language' of the car approaching you shows they are actually turning. My view would never emerge unless it's CLEAR.
To the OP....I would suggest your partly at fault,
You should never pull out if you may cause another road user to slow down or change direction to avoid hitting you
You should never "wave out" or "Flash" another road user to "go ahead" it could cause confusion (and in this case an accident)
You should as already said think that if an indicator is on.....all it means is that it works.....if when entering a roundabout for example, if they are indicating it does not mean they are going that way, and if they are not you have no idea where they are going
The lady who waved you out is also partly responsible, as her actions helped cause an accident
The person indicating left is also partly responsible, as her incorrect signal resulted in an "incident" (she would have failed a basic driving test for "misleading" other road users)
As a fellow (former) biker, I would suggest if you saw the indicator had been on for a while, and no noticeable change in road position, or speed "alarm" bells should have been going off in your helmet that maybe it was not a good idea to pull out, after all it's your life at risk. Just because someone has waved you out you don't have to go.
I hope your injuries are slight to nil, and you learn't not to trust any other road user
You should never pull out if you may cause another road user to slow down or change direction to avoid hitting you
You should never "wave out" or "Flash" another road user to "go ahead" it could cause confusion (and in this case an accident)
You should as already said think that if an indicator is on.....all it means is that it works.....if when entering a roundabout for example, if they are indicating it does not mean they are going that way, and if they are not you have no idea where they are going
The lady who waved you out is also partly responsible, as her actions helped cause an accident
The person indicating left is also partly responsible, as her incorrect signal resulted in an "incident" (she would have failed a basic driving test for "misleading" other road users)
As a fellow (former) biker, I would suggest if you saw the indicator had been on for a while, and no noticeable change in road position, or speed "alarm" bells should have been going off in your helmet that maybe it was not a good idea to pull out, after all it's your life at risk. Just because someone has waved you out you don't have to go.
I hope your injuries are slight to nil, and you learn't not to trust any other road user
Very sadly I would say you are at fault. People often leave indicators on, especially in summer when windows down means you can't hear them. I had this exact same situation turning out of our industrial estate road the other week during the warm weather; although thankfully I didn't pull out! I understand that it's tricky when someone is gesturing for you to go out, because by staying put you risk annoying them.
Op here.
For anyone that stumbles on this topic in future looking for likely outcomes etc.
I have just accepted an offer for a 50/50 split in fault.
Personally, I believe myself to be in the right (don't we all)! However, it seems entirely possible to be "in the right" and injured/ dead simultaneously!
For anyone that stumbles on this topic in future looking for likely outcomes etc.
I have just accepted an offer for a 50/50 split in fault.
Personally, I believe myself to be in the right (don't we all)! However, it seems entirely possible to be "in the right" and injured/ dead simultaneously!
Ride a bike?
Never, ever trust anyone else.
They will kill you.
First thing to learn before you even sit on a bike.
First 12 months of Motorcycling are the test.
Survive that and you'll be fine.
And always look into the car drivers eyes. You'll soon know if they have seen you.
Proper Schoolboy error.
Totally your fault.
Never, ever trust anyone else.
They will kill you.
First thing to learn before you even sit on a bike.
First 12 months of Motorcycling are the test.
Survive that and you'll be fine.
And always look into the car drivers eyes. You'll soon know if they have seen you.
Proper Schoolboy error.
Totally your fault.
Thing is, if she had said "my car was playing up and I was just pulling over after the Junction"
I dont think she would have got 50% of the blame.
I'm not being a clever bugger.
I'm really really pleased your ok
Ive seen a few dead bikers in my time.
I've only ever been hit by a car once, when I was 18.
Similar but not the same. Indicators are for overtaking, not just turning !
With a bit of experience I could have easily avoided it.
Cars can, quite literally, cut Humans in half.
However, the fun in Bikes overrules the Risks.
I'm 60 now.
Would I go back and buy a 750 at 17 years old?
Probably not?
Ask all of us old Bikers how many times we've seen 'The Big White Ramp' We are all very lucky to have survived it all !
I dont think she would have got 50% of the blame.
I'm not being a clever bugger.
I'm really really pleased your ok
Ive seen a few dead bikers in my time.
I've only ever been hit by a car once, when I was 18.
Similar but not the same. Indicators are for overtaking, not just turning !
With a bit of experience I could have easily avoided it.
Cars can, quite literally, cut Humans in half.
However, the fun in Bikes overrules the Risks.
I'm 60 now.
Would I go back and buy a 750 at 17 years old?
Probably not?
Ask all of us old Bikers how many times we've seen 'The Big White Ramp' We are all very lucky to have survived it all !
mickyh7 said:
Ride a bike?
Never, ever trust anyone else.
They will kill you.
First thing to learn before you even sit on a bike.
First 12 months of Motorcycling are the test.
Survive that and you'll be fine.
And always look into the car drivers eyes. You'll soon know if they have seen you.
Proper Schoolboy error.
Totally your fault.
I wouldn't suggest "looking into their eyes" I thought that once on a roundabout, I carried on around, and the dozy bint pulled out in front of me....i crashed into the side of her...it hurt...a lot....it also cost me my career owing to my injuries....she said " I didn't see you" I swear even now she was looking at meNever, ever trust anyone else.
They will kill you.
First thing to learn before you even sit on a bike.
First 12 months of Motorcycling are the test.
Survive that and you'll be fine.
And always look into the car drivers eyes. You'll soon know if they have seen you.
Proper Schoolboy error.
Totally your fault.
Many drivers at junctions "look" for cars ....they should maybe "look" for pedestrians, cyclists, motorbikes, cars, vans, lorries in that order?
treat every other road user as a complete idiot, and then when they act like one it has not "surprised" you :0
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