Rolling first and other vagueness
Discussion
So I'm an experienced biker with some experience of advanced training and all my training has drawn from roadcraft, and done with professional instructors or professional riders. I've enjoyed it. I started driving about 2 years ago because occaisonally moving a guitar amp or a passenger i don't want to buy £500+ of kit for is a thing. AA instructor spent a lot of time telling me roadcraft influenced behaviours were wrong. I'm now doing IAM roadsmart in the car in order to undo that regression and because I really want an idea of what i should be doing differently nailed down in my head before I do any more bike oriented stuff.
I had my first drive today and i'm feeling a bit put off really. I'm in the habit of selecting a rolling first in any vehicle I drive, stopping a car it's brake, clutch when i need to and and block shift into first just as the vehicle is coming to a stop. Current car (05 Mondeo TDCi) isn't a problem in this repect, polo i had before wouldn't always go into first smoothly from a block shift. It makes passing reference to doing this in the iam logbook (p23 "...for example when selecting rolling first gear") but apparently this is wrong.
Secondly, observer insists I must push button on handbrake and never ratchet it up, as I might break it. My owner's manual says otherwise. I'd also bet my degree in automotive engineering on any car younger than me that has not had a recall for a faulty mechanism being capable of sustaining substantially more than the design lifetime of the vehicle without substantial wear.
Thirdly observer wants me to slow down approaching a green light. I can hear every motorcycle instructor I ever spoke to yelling down the radio as i type this. Reasoning being you p
s off the person behind you who closes the gap and if you have to stop hard you have less of a buffer to the rear. AA driving instructor would just say green means go. I appreciate it's different if there are pedestrians you suspect might be disregarding the lights. I'm not as sure about this one. It's less dangerous to self to be seen the dithery git that everybody hates in a car than on two wheels.
All of this makes me feel not particularly confident in my observer. Thoughts?
I had my first drive today and i'm feeling a bit put off really. I'm in the habit of selecting a rolling first in any vehicle I drive, stopping a car it's brake, clutch when i need to and and block shift into first just as the vehicle is coming to a stop. Current car (05 Mondeo TDCi) isn't a problem in this repect, polo i had before wouldn't always go into first smoothly from a block shift. It makes passing reference to doing this in the iam logbook (p23 "...for example when selecting rolling first gear") but apparently this is wrong.
Secondly, observer insists I must push button on handbrake and never ratchet it up, as I might break it. My owner's manual says otherwise. I'd also bet my degree in automotive engineering on any car younger than me that has not had a recall for a faulty mechanism being capable of sustaining substantially more than the design lifetime of the vehicle without substantial wear.
Thirdly observer wants me to slow down approaching a green light. I can hear every motorcycle instructor I ever spoke to yelling down the radio as i type this. Reasoning being you p
s off the person behind you who closes the gap and if you have to stop hard you have less of a buffer to the rear. AA driving instructor would just say green means go. I appreciate it's different if there are pedestrians you suspect might be disregarding the lights. I'm not as sure about this one. It's less dangerous to self to be seen the dithery git that everybody hates in a car than on two wheels.All of this makes me feel not particularly confident in my observer. Thoughts?
I don't see a problem doing the block shift into first, but the norm is to brake to a halt, depressing the clutch when necessary and then select first. Or second if you didn't need to come to a stop as visability opened up. As you note, not all gearboxes will let you select first while moving though raising the clutch while in neutral sometimes overcomes this
I'd agree about pushing the button in as you bring the handbrake up and then letting it click the last couple of clicks. But that's preference and possibly a bit of mechanical sympathy. But break it?
I think there's some misunderstanding over the green light. You should approach the green light PREPARED to stop but to actually slow? Unless there's someone sitting on your bumper, then I'd be inclined to ease up on the approach in anticipation to lights changing.
Discuss these with your observer. It may be that he's pedantic, it may be that he's got the wrong idea from what he's been told. There are some in the advanced community who consider various matters an issue of black and white when you know there are shades of grey.
I'd agree about pushing the button in as you bring the handbrake up and then letting it click the last couple of clicks. But that's preference and possibly a bit of mechanical sympathy. But break it?
I think there's some misunderstanding over the green light. You should approach the green light PREPARED to stop but to actually slow? Unless there's someone sitting on your bumper, then I'd be inclined to ease up on the approach in anticipation to lights changing.
Discuss these with your observer. It may be that he's pedantic, it may be that he's got the wrong idea from what he's been told. There are some in the advanced community who consider various matters an issue of black and white when you know there are shades of grey.
IPSGA. Speed before gear. I wouldn't shift into first until I had stopped. Lots of gearboxes won't let you do that easily.
What is the problem with not having that awful noise of the handbrake ratchet? Hardly a big effort to push the button in.
What speed were you doing as you approach the green light? You should always be at a speed that would enable you to come to a stop smoothly and safely if the light changed. Talk it through with your instructor - this sounds like more of a communication issue to me.
What is the problem with not having that awful noise of the handbrake ratchet? Hardly a big effort to push the button in.
What speed were you doing as you approach the green light? You should always be at a speed that would enable you to come to a stop smoothly and safely if the light changed. Talk it through with your instructor - this sounds like more of a communication issue to me.
I'll use the button for temporary stops, But leave it to ratchet when coming to a halt at the destination - There's been recalls on Corsas in the past (not that I drive one 
) where they would fail to engage on the ratchet and roll away if using the button; It gives some added certainty to the engagement and ensures that it is on when getting out.
As for green lights (And any lights), I'll vary my approach speed on observations. If it's stale, I'd be more prepared to stop; Similarly for pedestrian controlled lights with someone waiting.
If it has just changed / indeterminate, I'll proceed at my current speed; No faster, but ready to come to a halt should the need arise. If you approach at the limit, the amber should give you ample time to decide.
If I'm approaching stale reds on a major road (i.e. DC with lights for crossing / joining minor roads) I'll generally slow in advance and drop to 2nd / 1st and roll up to the lights, as the interval will be vastly in favour of the major road. 80% of the time this allows me to roll through without a stop; If I've managed to do so in 2nd, I can usually make my way straight up to the posted limit too before block shifting up again.
When coming to a halt, I've gotten into a reasonable habit of following IPSGA Now. If It's a temporary stop; A Junction, or a light where I don't expect to be kept long, I'll come to a halt, take first and wait with footbrake and clutch. For anything extended, It's come to a halt, handbrake with button, and in to neutral.
) where they would fail to engage on the ratchet and roll away if using the button; It gives some added certainty to the engagement and ensures that it is on when getting out.As for green lights (And any lights), I'll vary my approach speed on observations. If it's stale, I'd be more prepared to stop; Similarly for pedestrian controlled lights with someone waiting.
If it has just changed / indeterminate, I'll proceed at my current speed; No faster, but ready to come to a halt should the need arise. If you approach at the limit, the amber should give you ample time to decide.
If I'm approaching stale reds on a major road (i.e. DC with lights for crossing / joining minor roads) I'll generally slow in advance and drop to 2nd / 1st and roll up to the lights, as the interval will be vastly in favour of the major road. 80% of the time this allows me to roll through without a stop; If I've managed to do so in 2nd, I can usually make my way straight up to the posted limit too before block shifting up again.
When coming to a halt, I've gotten into a reasonable habit of following IPSGA Now. If It's a temporary stop; A Junction, or a light where I don't expect to be kept long, I'll come to a halt, take first and wait with footbrake and clutch. For anything extended, It's come to a halt, handbrake with button, and in to neutral.
Having trained with police instructors when approaching give way lines there will always be a point when only first gear will the one needed. Then it is acceptable to take a rolling first. With cars without synchronised first quickly release the clutch and declutch again as you go through neutral.
Approaching green lights judge in following distance of vehicle behind to decide if they can stop safely behind should the lights go to amber.
Some ADI’s have little knowledge of Roadcraft.
Having do both IAM and RoSPA I’ve noticed some observers can be rather pedantic. Ask to have drives with other observers
Approaching green lights judge in following distance of vehicle behind to decide if they can stop safely behind should the lights go to amber.
Some ADI’s have little knowledge of Roadcraft.
Having do both IAM and RoSPA I’ve noticed some observers can be rather pedantic. Ask to have drives with other observers
On the subject of a rolling first, how quickly are you going when you select the gear?
I've passengered with a surprising number of people who select first at 15-20mph, seemingly oblivious to the fact that having to use all their strength to force it into gear is a clue that it's not mechanically sympathetic. They then almost invariably come to a halt anyway and take it out of gear again.
As a general guide, if you change down and then continue to reduce speed - you've probably selected the gear too early.
Edit: I've now read the OP properly, and it sounds like you're not going too fast.
Here's a statement that's likely to trigger many of the regulars here:
If your reason is 'just in case', then the issue is not being Systematic. The 'I' in IPSGA comes at the beginning and continues throughout and the idea is to observe, anticipate and start to plan before you get to the position, speed and gear bit.
Ideally you'll get to a point where you're choosing to perform every action for a reason. Doing anything purely by habit without considering whether or not it's correct for the situation is not what you're aiming for.
Could you give your observer another chance to explain some of the subtleties? If they say something that seems odd, you just need to find a way to explore the reasoning behind it. BTW, if the answer is 'because I say so' or 'because that's what it says in the book', then it's time to ask the group for a different observer.
I've passengered with a surprising number of people who select first at 15-20mph, seemingly oblivious to the fact that having to use all their strength to force it into gear is a clue that it's not mechanically sympathetic. They then almost invariably come to a halt anyway and take it out of gear again.
As a general guide, if you change down and then continue to reduce speed - you've probably selected the gear too early.
Edit: I've now read the OP properly, and it sounds like you're not going too fast.
Here's a statement that's likely to trigger many of the regulars here:
to_the_fatmobile said:
... I'm in the habit of selecting a rolling first in any vehicle I drive, ...
Sounds like you might still be putting it into gear unnecessarily - if you're coming to a halt and about to apply the parking brake, then a change down to first is a waste of effort. Simply drop the clutch and come to a halt in whatever gear you were in when you started braking.If your reason is 'just in case', then the issue is not being Systematic. The 'I' in IPSGA comes at the beginning and continues throughout and the idea is to observe, anticipate and start to plan before you get to the position, speed and gear bit.
Ideally you'll get to a point where you're choosing to perform every action for a reason. Doing anything purely by habit without considering whether or not it's correct for the situation is not what you're aiming for.
Could you give your observer another chance to explain some of the subtleties? If they say something that seems odd, you just need to find a way to explore the reasoning behind it. BTW, if the answer is 'because I say so' or 'because that's what it says in the book', then it's time to ask the group for a different observer.
Edited by S. Gonzales Esq. on Monday 18th March 09:38
to_the_fatmobile said:
AA instructor spent a lot of time telling me roadcraft influenced behaviours were wrong.
He's right. But only for learner drivers. to_the_fatmobile said:
I had my first drive today and i'm feeling a bit put off really. I'm in the habit of selecting a rolling first in any vehicle I drive, stopping a car it's brake, clutch when i need to and and block shift into first just as the vehicle is coming to a stop... It makes passing reference to doing this in the iam logbook (p23 "...for example when selecting rolling first gear") but apparently this is wrong.
Taking a rolling first is for when you are going to "roll", not when you know you are going to stop. It's a rolling first, not a stopping first. This, maybe, is where the confusion lies. If you are taking first gear every time before you come to a halt that's not a rolling first, and that's quite rightly to be regarded as an habitual gear change made without considering the circumstances.A deliberate rolling first, or rolling second for that matter, should only be taken when you can "roll" out from the junction in the chosen gear.
to_the_fatmobile said:
Secondly, observer insists I must push button on handbrake and never ratchet it up, as I might break it. My owner's manual says otherwise. I'd also bet my degree in automotive engineering on any car younger than me that has not had a recall for a faulty mechanism being capable of sustaining substantially more than the design lifetime of the vehicle without substantial wear.
Do as the manual says and tell the observer (and eventually the examiner) that's what it says and that's what you're doing.to_the_fatmobile said:
Thirdly observer wants me to slow down approaching a green light.
Provided you can stop at any time that the lights change to red there is no problem.to_the_fatmobile said:
AA driving instructor would just say green means go.
Not quite. Green means GO if the way is clear and it's safe to do so.to_the_fatmobile said:
All of this makes me feel not particularly confident in my observer. Thoughts?
I think it's important to remember that advanced driver coaching is not like learner driver instruction; although not many IAM/Rospa observers/tutors seem to know that. Advanced driving techniques are based on principles not rules; whereas learner driving is based upon rules. But, of course, you have to learn the rules before you can break them.In the world inhabited by learner driver instructors and learner driver examiners everything is either black or white, no questions asked, this is how you do it and if you don't you fail. By contrast the rules of advanced driving consist of 20% of things we MUST do, 20% of things we MUSTN'T DO and 60% of things we argue about interminably.
If your observer is being pedantic and refuses to argue with you, get another observer!
Edited by johnao on Monday 18th March 10:52
Edited by johnao on Monday 18th March 10:53
When/if I drive manuals, I would never engage first until I had stopped. Most cars now will pull away at low speed (or even stopped) in second. When pulling out of a give-way junction with a good view, my aim would be to stay rolling in second, clutch engaged and ready to accelerate out. It avoids that 1st to 2nd gear change with the car only just onto the main carriageway.
I have an auto now, it still has a parking brake, but also is held on the footbrake until the accelerator is pressed (so much better, even if people will moan about being de-skilled). When applying the parking brake for parking I will always press the button in and pull it up then release button. I then tend to pull it up another notch (without pressing the button) as I am about to get out, that is just my habit of checking. I dislike the sound of the ratchet when pulling a lever up. I regard it as poor driving. Having said that, vehicle systems are tested to the nth degree now, so there is very little risk of damage.
I have an auto now, it still has a parking brake, but also is held on the footbrake until the accelerator is pressed (so much better, even if people will moan about being de-skilled). When applying the parking brake for parking I will always press the button in and pull it up then release button. I then tend to pull it up another notch (without pressing the button) as I am about to get out, that is just my habit of checking. I dislike the sound of the ratchet when pulling a lever up. I regard it as poor driving. Having said that, vehicle systems are tested to the nth degree now, so there is very little risk of damage.
With regards green lights, they all are a bit different, and need different approaches.
For instance, coming off an M way slip road, up to a light controlled roundabout, these can be fast situations. In these cases, I would be approaching the green light at the top end of a comfortable speed, then lift off as I check right for any red-light-jumpers, if clear, then on the throttle and through. That also allows a chance to react if the green changes to amber. The green light light to me is a signal to observe left and right at a cross-way, and be prepared to stop. In town, nowadays there are so many cars going through on red (just after amber), and so many ambulances about. So that green for go, should be green for look (and be prepared to stop). At all times, be aware of who is behind you. At some stage an observer will probably cover the mirror and ask you what is behind. You should always know how close some one is behind you, and who is to your right and left, and whether any pedestrians are attempting to cross. Driving safely in town can be very tiring!
For instance, coming off an M way slip road, up to a light controlled roundabout, these can be fast situations. In these cases, I would be approaching the green light at the top end of a comfortable speed, then lift off as I check right for any red-light-jumpers, if clear, then on the throttle and through. That also allows a chance to react if the green changes to amber. The green light light to me is a signal to observe left and right at a cross-way, and be prepared to stop. In town, nowadays there are so many cars going through on red (just after amber), and so many ambulances about. So that green for go, should be green for look (and be prepared to stop). At all times, be aware of who is behind you. At some stage an observer will probably cover the mirror and ask you what is behind. You should always know how close some one is behind you, and who is to your right and left, and whether any pedestrians are attempting to cross. Driving safely in town can be very tiring!
Observers are a funny bunch really and I don't always agree. Not that I'm right either but just that I find some of the stuff a bit questionable.
The ratchet use on a handbrake does nothing at all. Sure it will wear slightly quicker but will last the life of the car and some. We're talking infinitesimal amounts of wear.
I was told not to wave at other drivers using my right hand. Left hand only.
Also wrapping thumbs round the wheel is a no-no. I don't do it anyway but still.
I've found changing into 1st difficult on most of my cars so tend to block change to 2nd and then 1st.
The ratchet use on a handbrake does nothing at all. Sure it will wear slightly quicker but will last the life of the car and some. We're talking infinitesimal amounts of wear.
I was told not to wave at other drivers using my right hand. Left hand only.
Also wrapping thumbs round the wheel is a no-no. I don't do it anyway but still.
I've found changing into 1st difficult on most of my cars so tend to block change to 2nd and then 1st.
SOL111 said:
Also wrapping thumbs round the wheel is a no-no. I don't do it anyway but still.
Agree about wrapping thumbs around. I took a quick pull out of gravel side road to fit into a tight gap on the main road. I went full throttle in a 335x drive. The car was faultless, no wheelspin and the car found its own direction very securely; but, boy, did the steering wheel spin quickly to straighten itself. It took the wheel out of my grip and I was glad my thumbs were not wrapped around.Pica-Pica said:
Agree about wrapping thumbs around. I took a quick pull out of gravel side road to fit into a tight gap on the main road. I went full throttle in a 335x drive. The car was faultless, no wheelspin and the car found its own direction very securely; but, boy, did the steering wheel spin quickly to straighten itself. It took the wheel out of my grip and I was glad my thumbs were not wrapped around.
Yeah it's an interesting one. I can't say I've experienced that kind of wheel action in 20+ years of driving but can see how it can happen.It feels unnatural for me to wrap my thumbs round as I tend to pull/push the wheel so don't do it. However, after it was mentioned I started to notice a lot of drivers on YouTube and TV doing it. Mostly racing drivers oddly enough but also driving instructors etc.
In the situation you described it sounds like the wheel was at least half lock on WOT so sounds like an extreme scenario. Not criticising but the rationale I was given was hitting potholes or kerbs etc. I'm ashamed to admit that I've hit a kerb at 45 degrees due to a complete cock up but the wheel was fine, surprisingly (as was the car!). Only thing damaged was my ego
I thought the whole point of taking a rolling first ( explained by a police instructor) was the ability to get away quickly after observation showed it was safe to proceed. Whether or not the car comes to stop is immaterial.
I’ve always done on this on numerous advanced tests without any negative comments. It’s not pre-judgement as speed is so slow that first is only gear that’s needed. Unlike taking second which would be pre-judging.
Should a stop be of more than a few seconds then apply the handbrake
I’ve always done on this on numerous advanced tests without any negative comments. It’s not pre-judgement as speed is so slow that first is only gear that’s needed. Unlike taking second which would be pre-judging.
Should a stop be of more than a few seconds then apply the handbrake
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