Give way to car on opposite side of roundabout just in case?

[Chromegrill]

The Highway Code says give way to cars already on a roundabout as you never know if the clown to your right is signalling correctly.

What about if you enter a roundabout at precisely the same time as a car approaching the roundabout coming towards you in the opposite direction however, and not signalling a right turn? Should one (or even both of us) stop and wait for the other to move, or do you go over and hope they aren't about to swing right into you?

Happened to me today. I slowed down to approach a roundabout - good visibility, crossroads with fairly small grass covered roundabout in the middle. Car approaching from the opposite direction entered the roundabout at exactly the same time as I crossed the threshold, neither signalling nor slowing down as it did so. I'm already half on the roundabout when to my horror I see him coming right at my offside at a pretty hefty speed as he suddenly puts in a sharp right hand turn. No signal obviously. I braked an emergency stop to let him whizz past and thankfully the car behind didn't crash into the back of me in the process. But it was a close shave.

Question: is there anything I should have done differently given I had no indication that he would come rushing towards my offside at the point I was starting to come onto the roundabout?

Supplementary question: does your answer above change given the car in question was an Audi A3?

[waremark]

As usual, it depends. In this case key factors are size of roundabout and relative speed. He must either have entered the roundabout before you or been going much faster.

[durbster]

There's a mini roundabout I regularly use where this situation happens a lot. I tend to try and time it so I never join at the same time as the cars from the opposite side. If it looks like we're going to join together, I'll back off a little and let them go first to see what they're planning to do. It usually works.

[_Hoppers]

Chromegrill said:

The Highway Code says give way to cars already on a roundabout

Does it actually say that though? Someone else mentioned this a few months back but I couldn't find it stated anywhere in the HC.

It does state:

"[Rule] 185

When reaching the roundabout you should:

give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights"

It later states

"watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all"

But as far as I can see it doesn't make a statement saying 'give way to vehicles already on the RA'.

Not sure if this helps but, I'd like this clarifying if someone can help.

[Mave]

If you look at what the give way markings mean when you enter the roundabout, the RTA says something like "give way to traffic already circulating on the roundabout" - nothing about whether they are to your left or right. IMHO the intention is that you treat joining a roundabout as if you are joining a circular one way street; but pragmatically you also need to be wary of people "claiming" their priority even before they are on the roundabout.

[titian]

ALWAYS - safety first.

If the closing speed of the vehicle you are concerned about means that you and they will be occupying the same road space if you continue, then back off and allow them who are already on the roundabout, to proceed ahead of you.

[johnao]

Chromegrill said:

The Highway Code says give way to cars already on a roundabout as you never know if the clown to your right is signalling correctly.

What about if you enter a roundabout at precisely the same time as a car approaching the roundabout coming towards you in the opposite direction however, and not signalling a right turn? Should one (or even both of us) stop and wait for the other to move, or do you go over and hope they aren't about to swing right into you?


Supplementary question: does your answer above change given the car in question was an Audi A3?

I would suggest, forget about what the Highway Code says. Forget about any signals other vehicles may, or may not, be giving. Forget about who is supposed to give way to whom. There is only one rule when it comes to entering roundabouts and it is... "Enter the roundabout only if you will not come into conflict with another road user for the space you intend to occupy." If there is the slightest possibility that there might be a conflict then don't proceed.

This requires the application of judgement, which, as experienced drivers, we are capable of exercising. It's this judgement that is far more valuable than any Highway code rules. It also requires planning.The Highway code rule is perfectly acceptable for anyone, I'm thinking here of new and inexperienced drivers, who don't have the requisite experience to plan and make those judgments.

So, if one applies this approach to the second paragraph above; If there is any possibility, given the speed of the two vehicles, road layout, body language or attitude of the oncoming vehicle and any other relevant indicators, that there might be a conflict for space if you were to enter the roundabout... then don't. Stay where you are, or preferably, plan your approach speed and timing such that you can be certain that there will be no conflict.

To the experienced driver who is able to plan his approach to the roundabout any possibility of conflict can be removed early on by careful planning. Given that there is a "Give Way" line on the entry to every roundabout this means that on the approach to a roundabout, when there is other traffic to consider, there are always three timing options; 1) if possible, time your arrival to be able flow onto the roundabout ahead of other traffic; 2) time your arrival to flow onto the roundabout behind other traffic, and, if these first two are not possible,... 3) Stop and give way to traffic already on the roundabout;

[_Hoppers]

Mave said:

If you look at what the give way markings mean when you enter the roundabout

Cheers, never thought to clarify the road markings :-/. The Know Your Traffic Signs doc just describes them as "Give Way"

[akirk]

big roundabouts - usually not an issue...
small roundabouts - adjust your approach so as to not both enter at the same time

so you are either ahead or behind... if there was good visibility, did you need to slow down (or by as much as you did?) A lot of drivers will stop at a roundabout and then look to see what is going on, if you have already been observing ahead, then you may be able to enter at a higher speed - at which point, assuming you are going straight on, there is no way that the other car entering will be going fast enough to turn in and hit you

[RobM77]

This is why the Highway Code is designed with layers of safety and procedure on everything (so if someone screws up on one thing, there's a backup there), and why we apply the same logic to our observation (multiple checks that all have to pass).

In this example, I would enter a roundabout as described if:

the other car is in their left hand lane
and
not indicating right to go beyond his 12 o clock,
and
looking straight ahead,
and
hasn't positioned their hands as if about to make a turn
and
not on a line that indicates they will turn
and
at a speed that would make a turn unlikely

If any one of those checks doesn't pass, I'll give way to the other car.

[Chromegrill]

Thanks that was my logic - but it failed on this occasion. Had I not slowed to approach the roundabout I'd have crossed it before the Audi reached it. In slowing down it delayed my arrival to the same time as his. As he was belting it along he was already about to turn as I was passing the white line. He didn't indicate and turned from the left hand lane so until he turned I had no way to anticipate such a manoeuvre. I guess I'll put it down to experience - and be extra vigilant for hoodlums in Audi A3s.

[Peter3442]

My impression is that there are an increasing number of near misses on roundabouts of all sizes and forms. Some arise from bad design and misleading information on the approach roads. Others from drivers totally ignoring recommended practices. I agree that with attention and caution we can get past the 'errors', but we should still reduce them. Is it time for a review or a re-education programme?

[watchnut]

Best rule of thumb in these situations is

Observe on coming vehicle, observe the driver, what is he doing? where is he looking? where are his hands? what are they doing?

Is he signaling? Is he signaling correctly? Does he intend to go where he is signaling?

What is his approach speed? is he going too fast to turn right in front of you?

How important is it for you to go first? What if he turns right, but his front offside indicator is not working?

Remember a signal on a car just means "My indicators work!"

No signal on means "I could go anywhere!"

"If in doubt Don't pull out!" best give way be delayed by a few seconds, rather than hours sorting out a crash/visit to hospital, remeber he could have been coming in through your door.

We have all done this, I doubt anyone has ever got it right every time.